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Lady Morbannaon
Acolyte
United Kingdom
42 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 04:03:11
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I'm planning on over Winter Holidays putting on a drow campaign and although having read through multiple books on drow I'm still intrigued and want to see what others thoughts are on the subject of a drow monk follower of Lolth.
Do people think they should exist? Is there anything to prevent them from doing so? I'm a bit jumpy about allowing Monks since they have a more lawful nature about them and Lolth being more chaos, somehow it just doesn't fit to me.
Anyway what are people's thoughts on the matter? I'd be interested to see what you all think.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 04:32:03
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| I think it unlikely that Lolth would have anything to do with monks. I think a drow monk would be a very singular critter, kinda like Drizzt originally was. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 04:41:21
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| I agree with Wooly. The mindset of the monk and the mindset of Lloth are about as diametrically opposed as you can get. Seeking perfect harmony and order vs an embodiment of chaos doesn't mix at all. Plus, the monk, or more precisely the "oriental monk" is a class that doesn't have any real way of getting transmitted to the Underdark. It really shouldn't be in Faerun either, but at least there you have the excuse of the occasional caravan from Kara-tur to explain it. For the drow the closest you'd get would probably be a monk slave, but any monk powerful enough to teach is also likely powerful enough to escape. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 05:41:27
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In someways a monk does not follow a deity as such, it being more the way of living a philosophy. Though I do agree that with Lolth as a patron deity, becoming a Monk appears unlikely or impossible.
2nd Edition required worlds to have everything of other worlds/realms. So while Monks might not fit well in the Underdark, there certainly can be a few. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 09:26:50
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Undrek'Thoz, that Drow portal city scattered around under Thay, has it's portal network policed by the Blackened Fist, an order of male drow monks (with a liberal dashing of shadowdancers and assassins). Apparently it rose up during Lolth's silence and exists in an uneasy truce with the Matrons, alot of families donate children to the order so they have loyal members on hand.
It's written up in 3e Underdark and there's a fair bit on how such an unorthodox institute of the Drow might work. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2009 : 16:14:21
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| And I don't think there's anything about monks that would prevent the drow from taking to them. Monks aren't loners by nature - almost all of them have to start out in a school or monestary at some point. Besides, Menzo drow sorta don't really care what you do as long as you're paying lip service to Lloth (wizard, psionicist, whatever). |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2009 : 05:17:17
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| I can see Lolth allowing LE monks as part of some chaotic experiment. Lawfulness provides some boundaries and boundaries both defy and challenge chaos. Lolth's chaos, IMO, is Nietzschean: whatever doesn't destroy the drow makes them stronger. |
Regards
NXB |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 21:39:27
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Now, that's an interesting way of looking at it. In any case, 3.5 drow seem slightly more NE as a whole- at least from the info in Drow of the Underdark. The Faerun drow are more likethe old @nd ed ones, granted, but I can still see them having small monestaries of males who worship her, perhaps under the guise of following Selvatarm, who is more martially inclined.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2009 : 10:02:29
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Well, I kind of dislike the Shaolin-monk type in my Realms, since they do not make much sense. No problem with "unarmed" or "differently-armed" fighters though, especially in a society that has a great tradition of unexpected attacks, assassinations et al (and who's better for that than an apparently unarmed chap or lass?). The monks of AD&D (see Faiths & Avatars for a description of this cleric variant) might be another option, of course.
As for Lolth and lawful folk. Well, I also dislike that one-step stuff of 3.xE, as opposed to the outline given in Demihuman Deities, my non-plus-ultra sourcebook for her faith:
WORSHIPPERS ALIGNMENT: LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE
CLERGY: Clerics, crusaders, specialty priests
CLERGY'S ALIGN.: CN, LE, NE, CE
There is no reason IMHO why Lolth could not have e.g. LE blackguards or unholy paladins, templars and the like, people sworn to guard temples, act as bodyguards et al, who are evil yet still follow certain codices, act according to some guideline and the like. Likewise, 3RE monks need not to be chaotic to be followers of Lolth, since they are not bound to any one-step-rule. On a sidenote, it would suit Lolth's (strange) machinations to have lawful monks who uphold her visions of Chaos.
BTW, the new PF witch and the inquisitor classes (BETA version are available for free at Paizo) work fine with the FR drow, the former as a possible renegade sort of spellcaster, the latter as a crusader of Lolth's faith.
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 23 Dec 2009 10:04:51 |
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 04:02:50
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| The one-step rule only applies to clerics. Non-spellcasters don't have to abide by the one-step rule. |
Regards
NXB |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 08:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil Bishop
The one-step rule only applies to clerics. Non-spellcasters don't have to abide by the one-step rule.
One step rule applies to all divine casters, be they clerics, druids, blackguards, paladins, rangers or whatever.  |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2009 : 01:28:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Neil Bishop
The one-step rule only applies to clerics. Non-spellcasters don't have to abide by the one-step rule.
One step rule applies to all divine casters, be they clerics, druids, blackguards, paladins, rangers or whatever.
Sorry, that's actually what I meant to say. I used cleric as shorthand for divine spellcaster. |
Regards
NXB |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2010 : 14:57:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Morbannaon
I'm planning on over Winter Holidays putting on a drow campaign and although having read through multiple books on drow I'm still intrigued and want to see what others thoughts are on the subject of a drow monk follower of Lolth.
Do people think they should exist? Is there anything to prevent them from doing so? I'm a bit jumpy about allowing Monks since they have a more lawful nature about them and Lolth being more chaos, somehow it just doesn't fit to me.
Anyway what are people's thoughts on the matter? I'd be interested to see what you all think.
Back in the day, I ran a lot of games using the Menzoberranzan setting. I had monk characters employed in the Sorcere Spellguard. I used the reasoning that their ability to fight without metal weapons was useful to the wizards of Sorcere because metal interfers with arcane energies.
As to whether there could be a drow monk follower of Lolth. It all depends on how hung up you are on alignment. Many people will probably tell you that a lawful character can't serve a chaotic goddess. Yet if a code exists for a chaotic deity then surely the monk follows the code more than the deity. Page 13 of the 2nd Edn Menzoberranzan says: "Menzoberranzan is governed by the Way of Lolth, a code of behaviour known in detail by every high priestess."
There's no reason in my mind why your monk can't adhere to that code. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 13:29:29
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| Hence my remark re the "old" AD&D alignments given for her worshippers and clergy. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2010 : 14:03:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Hence my remark re the "old" AD&D alignments given for her worshippers and clergy.
*goes back to read it*
Yep, I agree with your remark. I also don't envisage any drow monk acting like a Shaolin monk. Instead, they're a type of fighter who has no need of weapons - much as you said. They also follow a code that allows for the general drow unpleasantness but gives them a few laws to obey, which they do (or they successfully appear to be doing so.) |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 09:13:00
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I liked the Blackened Fist Monk/Assassins from the Underdark book, personally. They seemed like a more effective sort of evil then the Priestesses of Lolth. They were strict, disciplined, and not thoughtlessly cruel (no they put active thought into it).
I had one used as a recurring villain in a campaign focused on East Faerun, working for the Red Wizards (geographically speaking Thay is over Undrek'Thoz). He was generally agreed to be a badass, since he could do things like Death Attack with his bare hands.
I personally found Lolth to be a somewhat...ineffectual Goddess despite her power, and her worshippers even more so. Lolth looses to the Seledrine, becomes cursed, twisted and evil, loosing Corellian Latherian's love, and immediately proceeds to tell her people to......sulk underground for the next six thousand years.
They fight amongst each other, only go to the surface long enough do short raids that gets them nothing but the occasional dead elf, make evil "plots" that involve killing each other over and over, with their priestesses repeatedly showing disinterest in the surface.
Let's check off a little list: Bitter, Spiteful, Does Mean Little Nothings to Get Back At Her Former Love, Lost Husband, Lots of Children She's Thoughtlessly Cruel and Regularly Manipulates Into Hating her Former Lover.
Yup, it's official: Lolth is the Greater Goddess of Bitter Divorced Wives who Regularly Abuse Their Kids  . The drow should take a page out of the Banites book and get their act together . |
"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 09:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
I personally found Lolth to be a somewhat...ineffectual Goddess despite her power, and her worshippers even more so. Lolth looses to the Seledrine, becomes cursed, twisted and evil, loosing Corellian Latherian's love, and immediately proceeds to tell her people to......sulk underground for the next six thousand years.
Let's check off a little list: Bitter, Spiteful, Does Mean Little Nothings to Get Back At Her Former Love, Lost Husband, Lots of Children She's Thoughtlessly Cruel and Regularly Manipulates Into Hating her Former Lover.
Although Lolth is the major goddess of the drow, it doesn't mean she likes them as worshippers. I see Lolth as a goddess who gets the drow to act the way they do because she likes it that way. She is mean, spiteful and petty. She is the worse punishment the drow have had inflicted on them.
In my games, I've often depicted the drow as tragic. Priestesses have to sacrifice a lover - and it must be a lover, not some bloke from the kitchen. They have to demonstrate that they are willing to give up happiness for Lolth, and all for the slight chance that they might rise to a position of power. Mothers have to sacrifice their children.
It doesn't make a lot of sense really. Just like Lolth really.
To me, the drow are appealing because of their Byzantine in-fighting. The Houses are like the city states in Classical Greece, constantly squabbling and losing sight of the bigger picture because he called my Sacred Band gay.
I've often thought that the best thing would have been to have the Dark Selarine form House Illythiiri - that is act as a tight pantheon. In fact, in my games that is what happened.
Lolth became Matron, Vhaeraun was Elder Boy, Kiaransalee First Daughter.
Another way, of course, is to have House Lolth, House Vhaeraun, etc.
Anyway, to cut a long ramble short. I agree with what you say. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 09:52:27
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Their intensely clever schemes against each other appeals to me too, actually, but it's apparent lack of direction makes them seem ineffectual villains sometimes. The easiest way to get the drow to forget their dastardly schemes to kill you is to just leave town. They'll soon forget about any schemes they had based around PC's or nations, because i guess if it's not in the direct vicinity of their little inward-turned city-states, they don't care.
That's why the Vhaerunian surface drow seem way scarier to me. Imagine if a whole city of drow escaped to the surface, banded together and starting plotting as one, terrifyingly devious mind? It make the Zhentarim pee their night-black pants. Well, except for maybe Manshoon. Too busy being a magnificent bastard.
"Don't mind me, I'm just being more crazy awesome then your whole species!"
What a loony . |
"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 13:27:05
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Exactly! The way the drow are portrayed are often an opportunity lost. Which is a shame, as great heroes need great villains.
Many an empire in history has solved the power struggles by expanding. In fact, things tend to go wrong when the empire stops expanding.
If a matron finds her daughters becoming too competitive then encouraging them to set up on their own helps.
As for drow deities, Vhaeraun would be a much better drow deity, he has a purpose and a broader tolerance of possible worshippers and clerics. Any deity except Lolth seems much better. Lolth would be better suited as a demon in the Abyss. Called on by a few, not by many. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 16:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun. 
I've never really cared for him myself, but I happen to agree that this is some worthwhile consideration for the deity.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 16:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
That's because we're on commission. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 16:43:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
I've never really cared for him myself, but I happen to agree that this is some worthwhile consideration for the deity.
I prefer evil with a purpose to random evil.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 23:45:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
I've never really cared for him myself, but I happen to agree that this is some worthwhile consideration for the deity.
I prefer evil with a purpose to random evil.
As do I. I suppose I've just never been all that enamoured with Vhaeraun's portfolio. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 11:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
Nah ... never liked him, as he solely comes over as the spoilt-brat sort of chap, only willing to harm his mum and her lot, rather than walk tall on his own.
As for Lolth and Kiaransalee, it is kind of sad that especially the novels painted them in the chaotic and violent fashion, as there is so much more to both faiths (if not deities), as presented in Demihuman Deities. In the end, WotC et al solely used them to recreate the plain chaotic evil deities for plain chaotic evil monsters. Hence I can only hail the work put in by 3rd party publishers to create more diverse panthei for the drow elsewhere. I for one tend to keep a lit on the whole religous stuff within drow society, as it is IMHO usually blown out of all proportion, given how "long" the drow have survived within the setting without obliterating themselves time and again. Something they would have done, had the novels and stereoytpes been applied to them all. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 11:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
In the end, WotC et al solely used them to recreate the plain chaotic evil deities for plain chaotic evil monsters... Something they would have done, had the novels and stereoytpes been applied to them all.
I agree. There's still the tendency to portray the bad guys as just dumb thugs and can't help being daft. Some of the novels have Kiaransalee and Lolth acting and speaking like 'Valley Girls', which sort of understates the high Intelligence both deities are supposed to have.
The sterotype is that evil is monolithic, lumpen and a senseless force of destruction. But so's an earthquake.
As Wooly says: "evil with a purpose" is more appealing. In game terms, this gives the PCs something to discover, it gives them good RP opportunities and it should mean they matched against an intelligent motivated villain.
In story terms, the smarter, stronger and craftier your antagonist the better your protagonist has to be. Michael Stracinsky (of Babylon 5) said that the aim of writing is to put your hero up a tree and then throw rocks at him. (Tolkien had Bilbo up a tree, then set the forest on fire.) All too often, what we see is our hero up a tree, and that's it.
That said, it depends on your audience. Dumb evil is easier to understand, alignment means that it's OK to slaughter orc children because 'Hey, they're evil'. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 04 Jan 2010 11:23:31 |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 22:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You folks are naming all the reasons I love Vhaeraun.
Nah ... never liked him, as he solely comes over as the spoilt-brat sort of chap, only willing to harm his mum and her lot, rather than walk tall on his own.
I dunno... With his goals of getting the drow out from under her and living on the surface, I think he's doing more than being a spoiled brat. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 10:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
Indeed. If you give the bad guys 3d character, personality, motivation etc instead of portraying them as thugish idiots, you run the risk of providing grounds for sympathy and confusing people. :)
And that would never do. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Drow Monks?
