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Dantrag
Learned Scribe
USA
141 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 04:38:57
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Look i love the realms, i am an avid reader of any FR book i can get my hands on( i own about a 50 as of now), but i have yet , and honestly don't plan to, play D&D. It seems that most topics in Candlekeep have to do with D&D , and though there are a few not involving it, most do. This makes it kind of difficult to post on a consistent basis in the forums, and im just wondering if there are any other non players here and if they have any complaints regarding this.
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" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 05:24:05
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Candlekeep tends to go through periods of slight inactivity with respect to the kinds of discussions posted here. Add to that, the fact that some of our more prolific scribes have simply retired from these halls or moved on to other sites on the web over the years, and you'll begin to appreciate just why the "lack of topics" has become a recurring trend here. I can, for example, immediately recall about 20 scribes which I regularly used to chat with about diverse Realms-based topics here at Candlekeep since 2002. Unfortunately, most are inactive now, leaving near-silence to once again reign within these dark and scholarly walls.
If you or any future contributing scribe to this scroll have any ideas about possibly counter-acting this circumstance, I'd be happy to hear and consider each in turn.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SeeDiGi
Acolyte
Bermuda
34 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 05:46:01
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| its hard to talk about stuff when theres a lack of new stuff to talk about. Lots of info exists out there but talking about what the Manshoon clones did during the Manshoon War or who the greatest magician is or something like that gets old after the 100th time, you know? New info since the 4e books is only in: DDI articles which I get the distincy impression that the majority here doesn't have for their own reasons, Novels, that some people read and some dont, RPGA, which if you dont belong to them you can't even get the info. The amount of water (new infos) that should be flowing is even greater, but WotC made the dam (release dates and formats) more restrictive than the past. |
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Dantrag
Learned Scribe
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 05:46:57
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| Are there many other realms based forum sites? If so, i would check those out and see what Candlekeep is losing users over and create some kind of "gimic"(sp?), if you will, to draw them back. I honestly love the interface and the user friendly aspect here. I really can't think of any ideas aside from , and this may sound stupid, but contests of a sort. Things like art and short story contests. Thats the best i can come up with aside from a fully text based interactive roleplaying experience complete with stats and things like that, but thats coming from someone who has no idea of the scale and work needed to create that. |
" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined" |
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Dantrag
Learned Scribe
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 05:50:26
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| I just hope the realms aren't sprialing down out of popularity and content. From the way alot of posts read though, it seems that WotC is in a way setting the path for this very thing to happen. Forgotten Realms novels got me interested in reading, and without them i may not have ever been interested. It would be a sad day indeed. |
" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined" |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 07:33:04
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My take on it is that gamers tend to be more prolific posters to begin with - after all, if, as part of your gaming preps or debriefs you're already writing or imagining things, it's a small step to actually posting them.
Also (and this is my own, very personal, view), the scope for discussing novels and/or stories is more limited than discussing the Game. Novels and stories are basically set pieces - there's little that you can change, you can discuss what has been written, criticize or praise, but after a while, people probably run out of things to post, except for "yeah, agreed", which is not that productive at all. Game-related posts have an almost infinite scope, and tend to lend themselves more to interactivity. They tend to be more versatile - gamers might appreciate a detailed description of a fully made-up village somewhere in the deep Heartlands, but that may not be relevant at all to novel readers, if it does not in one way or the other tie into a novel they have read.
Which brings me to another thought - gamers usually have an overall view on the Realms, being interested in the Realms as a whole. Most gamers might take interest in any post about the Realms. Even with divisions existing over Editions, a post on game aspects is likely to attract the attention (and the reactions) of most gamers. I have the impression (could be wrong, though) that the novel-reading audience might be a bit more divided - there are some people that will devour almost any novel published, others might be interested in the works of one writer (Bob Salvatore springs to mind, in particular). |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 08:49:18
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| Thauramarth has more or less said everything I can think of. But I would mention that to me the impression is somewhat opposite, I get the feeling that Candlekeep has more readers than gamers. Subjects relating to novels are generally more poplar than those of a purely game-related nature. I could be wrong about this of course as I have not done a thorough study of the threads. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 03 Dec 2009 08:51:00 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 09:04:17
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As to posters, there certainly can be distractions, however there also can be another answer.
Some clearly disappear because of Real Life, students often find time to post for example.
Oh some clearly could have moved on to warcraft or facebook, however I suspect many have become as much involved with work and family.
As to readers to posters, only an admin could answer that. There have been claims from other sites that they have 100 readers compared to number of posters.
The other reason though could be is that there is little new FR material. The few 1st Edition and the 2nd and 3rd Edition topics in print already has been discussed in large detail.
That is old news, that sometimes gets revisited.
Alas there is another point of concern, some of those that still read have declared a total rejection of 4th FR and as such will only look for and reply to prior edition discussions.
Thus there can be many reasons why topics and discussion is lower. Odds are that one or more of the above reasons indicate why there are less posts, there also can be other reasons that I did not list. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 12:47:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As to posters, there certainly can be distractions, however there also can be another answer.
Some clearly disappear because of Real Life, students often find time to post for example.
Oh some clearly could have moved on to warcraft or facebook, however I suspect many have become as much involved with work and family.
Of course, I did not mention any of that, because I more or less consider such things to be part of the overall attrition rate that affects any forum or venue. There are real life issues - I've been at Candlekeep for over five years, and I think I average about 45 posts per year, with some periods in which I posted about 10 per month, and then months without any posting.
And Kentinal is right of course, there's a shift (fragmentation, if you prefer) of means of communication - just like the Realms-L list is more or less defunct now, because people moved from E-mail lists to forums, now, perhaps, Forums are losing audience to other venues.
There's one other thing we should probably mention - WotC's fan policy (or lack thereof, for a while) has created huge uncertainty as to what Realms-fans wishing to engage in creating some lore for the Realms, would be allowed to post on the web (including forums) or not. The general drop in activity may be due to this. The threads I enjoyed the most were those were people shared bits and pieces of home-made lore (and some crunch), which seems to have slowed down to a trickle. Partly, I guess because of the fragmentation of the Realms fan base following the successive editions (although the shift from 3e to 4e was probably the most disruptive I've seen), but also because 'keepers may not be entirely sure anymore as to what they can and cannot post without risking Candlekeep shutdown. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 20:15:37
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| I lost interest in the game. Just too many interesting and fun things in real life. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 20:30:08
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I am still around, but find I rarley post anymore. I usually just lurk and dont bother to log in. Most of that is due to 4e, I try not to post to any scroll that concerns it because I have found that any feedback that can be taken as anti(and no matter how positively put or meant), is usually taken as an outrageous attack that results in a massive counterstrike of name calling directed to the non 4e devotee....but thats just my opinion.
I still might chime in on a edition non specific scroll. I still keep close tabs on the novels and book club, but none of the recent FR novels have lit a fire under me and compelled me to post.
P.S. Maybe I am saving my posts for the release of Elminster Must Die?! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 03 Dec 2009 20:32:32 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 15:31:52
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| I still lurk but my postings have diminished |
I'm Back! |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 21:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Dantrag
..., and im just wondering if there are any other non players here and if they have any complaints regarding this.
Dantrag, I am also a non-player. Basically my interest in the realms is based on my love for Faerun and its lore which was triggered by the Baldur's Gate 2 game and then I switched into the novels.
There is and has been plenty of interesting stuff here even though I do not play.
For me there is also a lack of topics at the moment because with the old realms discontinued due to 4e, the new lore for Faerun is basically only published at DDI. And the novels... well...interest(ed) me because of their connection to Faerun and its abundant lore.
So it is kind a vicious circle now for me regarding the new stuff and allthough I still have lots of 2e and 3e novels to read, the motivation dropped a bit to read them at the speed I used to, because the lore is- let's face it- "yesterday's". So there is no need to rush anymore to keep up with the pace.
Anyways I still hang out here and hope, that things will get better again in the future regarding the things that interest me in the realms. Even so, I am still well entertained here and it is great to have the FR authors posting here too! |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2009 : 22:33:15
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I have to admit that I no longer really take the time to post as much as I once did simply because I am too involved in playing the game. I occasionally read a few topics here and there to see if I have anything to contribute, but most often I simply absorb what I can and have nothing to add. (Like here  Not much to add] |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2009 : 19:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dantrag
Are there many other realms based forum sites? If so, i would check those out and see what Candlekeep is losing users over and create some kind of "gimic"(sp?), if you will, to draw them back. I honestly love the interface and the user friendly aspect here. I really can't think of any ideas aside from , and this may sound stupid, but contests of a sort. Things like art and short story contests. Thats the best i can come up with aside from a fully text based interactive roleplaying experience complete with stats and things like that, but thats coming from someone who has no idea of the scale and work needed to create that.
theres always the official wizards site but the average mental age on there is about 5.im like you.just a reader not a player. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2009 : 22:52:56
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Dantrag, I see a few difficulties with your ideas, all of them are cool. The thing is that the fan base is split and if some people are like me, tired of the crap that is the online-policy or lack thereof, and the changes brought by 4e in general, not just FR4e (tho that opens a whole can of worms)... I had/have a whole boatload of ideas, all unfortunately dismissing the Spellplague and ignoring the whole, IMO, debacle.
As it stands I lurk, skim through stuff, shake my head on more than one occasion and shut the browser window again. Funny thing is, I like the Star Wars prequels more than I like what has been done to the Realms, and THAT is saying a lot, and since I rarely discuss those prequels, discussing anything Realms post 1375 DR is kinda pointless to me.
The fanbase is split, divided, whatever you wanna call it... and now I'm off to lurking again. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 01:36:58
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perhapse I am vastly misunderstanding things, but what is the issue with discussing homebrew Realms material and building on previous edition lore?
I rather hope this place doesn't grind to a halt, it's a goldmine! I'm not letting you lot get away because of some bulls**t edition wars! :)
As for the lack of topics, what would people like to see? I could quite easily spew forth great fountains of my own piffle at the library (even moreso than I already do), but I question how constructive that would be. |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 02:12:18
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I still lurk in the hopes that someone buys the Realms off WotC, preferably with Ed Greenwood as the major or one of the main shareholders.
And I also come to praise Paizo and how I was right all along about these guys.
If I learned something in business school: the current/past product means nothing; you have to look at the current management team to make proper forecasts about a brand. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 04:53:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
perhapse I am vastly misunderstanding things, but what is the issue with discussing homebrew Realms material and building on previous edition lore?
I rather hope this place doesn't grind to a halt, it's a goldmine! I'm not letting you lot get away because of some bulls**t edition wars! :)
As for the lack of topics, what would people like to see? I could quite easily spew forth great fountains of my own piffle at the library (even moreso than I already do), but I question how constructive that would be.
Hmm, there really is no issue about homebrew that I have seen. There is a section called running the Realms.
I have gone back to 1st Edition on occasion, and it should be recalled that the first Ed Greenwood was 1st Edition.
The forum is for discussion, I could post many things about what I have interest in as declarative statements. Such might generate discussion, however just as likely get me edited or banned.
Of those that have read they might understand tht many of my posts have been concerning Eilistraee, Drow, elves, with minor percentage of interaction on other aspect of Realms/current Edition or prior one.
If there is a topic you wish discussed, clearly you should start one in proper location. It though clearly holds a risk that no one else will want to discuss it. I have started elsewhere threads that I hoped for discussion that however resulted in no replies. Maybe I should have used a more active forum, though those posts clearly could not be posted here. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 08:59:37
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To the OP's concern about lack of novel/story related discussion, I find the novel sections and novel discussions, including the questions to the authors sections, to be some of the more active parts of the site. It takes forever for the more 'crunchy' RPG related topics to generate responses on par with the novel discussions. That includes discussions on RPG products, releases, rules, DDI articles and the like. A lot of the "RPG" lore discussions actually fall into a sort of hybrid category in my mind. These dominate the activity on this site from what I've seen. These discussions have application in gaming, but also help to elaborate the story side of things. Often the lore is tied to novel events or characters.
Honestly, the Realms is anything but "novels discussion lite." The novels are an integral part of the Realms, to the chagrin of some RPG players. The novels on average also make more money than RPG supplements, which helps promote their higher release rate, especially with the one-off strategy WotC took with the RPG setting. Novels are about the only place outside of DDI to get any information on the current Realms. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 10:02:08
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I came in, during the final days of 2nd and the beginning of 3rd.
all the lore, was still being talked about, and still mattered.
now 4e comes along, the old lore doesn't matter all that much anymore, and the new lore , is up in 3 places:
1: in the bases that there is not to much of it right now
2: up in ddi, which mind you, isnt that accessible for everyone.
3: covered under NDA
as for other FR sites, well there was that Chosen of Eilistraee site, but they removed the link to the wotc site there and stated that they would stay in 3.5 or go on with their own story and not use the 4e stuff or some such.
other than them, the only other place is Loremaster and here at Candlekeep that I know of personally. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 06 Dec 2009 10:02:50 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 17:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
[
now 4e comes along, the old lore doesn't matter all that much anymore,
Here's where I don't really agree, both from a rpg standpoint and a reader. There are thousands upon thousands of pages of information and the whole idea of a roleplaying (and fantasy) world is to use ones imagination. This is the reason that the idea of a strict canon rubs me the wrong way, its just a blocking of ideas and discussions.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2009 : 21:19:04
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and that is why I said doesnt matter all that much instead of the old lore was thrown out that others have used
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 06:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
[
now 4e comes along, the old lore doesn't matter all that much anymore,
Here's where I don't really agree, both from a rpg standpoint and a reader. There are thousands upon thousands of pages of information and the whole idea of a roleplaying (and fantasy) world is to use ones imagination. This is the reason that the idea of a strict canon rubs me the wrong way, its just a blocking of ideas and discussions.
I agree and don't agree w/you, Jorkens.
I agree w/SFDragon that 4e, based on the way it was made, does away w/the old lore.
And I agree w/you about there being so many pages of 1e, 2e, and 3e lore for us to use and create our own stories from, not juss in places like Osse either, but in the more detailed lands that we love.
And I think the way how lore was made in the 1st 3 editions was just fine, for the most part anyways.
(Edit: I think that the lore, when it wasn't completely to your liking, was made in such a way that it was open-ended, and you can thus customize it, in the way how you really thought it to happen ie--Canon states that Myth Adofaer time travelled into the future, but judging by the way its written, it gives me the impression that the more plausible explanation is that it somehow went into Spelljammer, and is monitoring its former lands and communities via scrying, or perhaps even hidden in plain sight.)
I personally don't use any of the 4e lore that I've explored. The 1e, 2e, and 3e books have so much that its insane! Has anyone ever tried counting how many different storylines and adventure hooks there are in Steve Schend's 2e Lands of Intrigue book, alone? I've had that book for 4yrs, and I'm still amazed by how many adventures there are in it!
Granted, I got into Forgotten Realms late (2003-ish), but after researching all the lore in the various 2e and 3e sourcebooks (and pre-4e Dragon and Dungeon magazines to go with them), I'm just convinced that there are so many storylines and adventure hooks that can make you have very full campaigns and stories, be it in a group, or even just doing it for oneself. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 07 Dec 2009 06:06:43 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2009 : 06:44:11
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I have said this before on the Wizard Forums. The group I game with wouldn't know 1,2,or 3E Lore from 4E lore anyways. So I could just use my older Realms books in 4E and they wouldn't even notice the difference.
2 would know but hey its my game. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 10:46:12
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The Realms many of us grew to love no longer exists. The question of weather the 'new realms' is better then the 'Old Realms' is moot. The simple fact is that the thing in its current form is NOT what we fell in love with.
I was lurking for a bit, but now I don't even do that - this is the first I'm on in awhile. I just re-read Starlight & Shadows, which makes me wax nostalgic, so I popped in today. How I will miss Elaine's wonderful Realms prose; with the sole exception of Ed, I don't think anyone truly understood the Realms better then Ms. Cunnimgham. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 12:38:33
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| Indeed Markustay. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 14:57:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Realms many of us grew to love no longer exists. The question of weather the 'new realms' is better then the 'Old Realms' is moot. The simple fact is that the thing in its current form is NOT what we fell in love with.
I was lurking for a bit, but now I don't even do that - this is the first I'm on in awhile. I just re-read Starlight & Shadows, which makes me wax nostalgic, so I popped in today. How I will miss Elaine's wonderful Realms prose; with the sole exception of Ed, I don't think anyone truly understood the Realms better then Ms. Cunnimgham.
Good to see you around Markus. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 14:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
with the sole exception of Ed, I don't think anyone truly understood the Realms better then Ms. Cunnimgham.
Don't forget Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2009 : 15:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
with the sole exception of Ed, I don't think anyone truly understood the Realms better then Ms. Cunnimgham.
Don't forget Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb.
And I think even Steven Schend has managed to accomplish much the same, and all with only two of his most recent examples of Realms fiction. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2009 : 11:23:59
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I was thinking specifically authors, not designers.
Although there is quite a bit of cross-over, I still feel certain people fall more into one category then the other.
If i were talking about designers, then I would have said Schend instead of Elaine (which is no poor reflection on his novels - I will just always think of him as a designer first).
Ed is the sole exception to my 'this or that' way of thinking - Ed will always be all things to me. 
Who among us can't help but smile when we look upon (or even think about) the Old Grey Box? It was an RPG masterpiece. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Dec 2009 11:24:36 |
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Lack of Topics
