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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 01:30:37
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Dear Fellow scribes...I'm confused...niced to neet you...
When is an elf not an elf....when its an Eladrin.....but having said that...I was of the opinion that all Sun and Moon Elves were descended from a few survivors from Tintageer, an island (or islands) in the sea from a world called Faerie. These survivors according to 'their' own lore then mixed with the local Sylvan or Green elves and became what they are today. Culturally 3 seperate casts/cultural groups ,more than genetic subsets. Sun Elves = highly urbanised & generally conservative/traditional sticking very much to the old ways culturally. Moon Elves = urban/rural fringe, progressive and outward looking, more liberal in outlook. Sylvan/Green Elves, considered indigenous/aboriginal elves (just coz they arrived first), in tune with nature, philosophical, generally peaceful if left alone, wary of change whilst at the same time very much into living for the moment.
Dark Elves (Dhaerow is just an opprobrious term), assertive and self confident with a can do/we know best attitude willing to do what it takes to compete with their old rivals the Sun Elves.
So here we have 4 seperate cultural groups who on their old world formed 4 seperate casts (if you believe Sun Elf Thinking)...so how is it just because we have a spell plague that Sun and Moon Elves suddenly become 'Eladrin', and get re-aquainted with world that they all but destroyed, that has suddenly become a plane(?). As they are all 'descended' from a Green Elf ancestors of one sort or another, how can they be 'Eladrin', by rights the only true Eladrin should be the ones who appeared post spell plague when the two worlds reconnected, all those labelled Eladrin who were born on Toril are just elves pure and simple.........
So my questions stands....when is an elf not an elf?????
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Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Edited by - Snowblood on 30 Oct 2009 10:10:14
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Randal_Dundragon
Seeker
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 04:06:49
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Thats a really good question and ive often wondered that myself, and honestly i couldn't say. The way its described is a little ambiguous at best.
Let me know if you ever find the Answer |
Its simple really, Your an idiot and I'm simply a figment of your imagination |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 10:37:30
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| I kindly decline to agree to the new 4E terminology of the elves. It all has been laid out in various older FR sourcebooks. IMHO, all elves should derive from some sort of humanoid fey creatures and somesuch would also explain the sub-racial differences. Eladrin, as far as I am concerned, a "outsiders" and "extra-planars" like ghaele et al. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 13:41:36
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| In my campaign all eladrin (sun/moon elves) and elves (wood/wild elves) call themselves 'elf'. Eladrin is just a word on the character sheet to define the racial power. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 15:40:11
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| it's more a cultural trait rather than genetic, FR elves are known to change their subrace according to the environment |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 16:07:48
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| In the novel I'm writing right now, I use the word "eladric". As in being an "eladric elf". |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2009 : 16:26:29
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As I understand it:
An elf is never "not" an elf in the Forgotten Realms. Moon elves, sun elves, wood elves, wild elves--all of these still exist and are called (as such) by the people in the Realms. That said, there are two types of creatures that we call elves: "eladrin" and "elves." Their powers are slightly different, but they still come originally from the same place: the Feywild, and worlds that are broadly touched by the Feywild. Thus, they are "Feywild Eladrin" and "Feywild Elves."
I suspect that the turbulence following the spellplague brought the Feywild (or the Realm of Faerie) closer to the Realms, thus making all the elves in the world a little bit more like their ancient forebears, who dwelt in the Feywild before they migrated to the Realms. Thus, those Realmsian elves who were most like Feywild Eladrin to begin with (moon and sun) became *more like* Feywild Eladrin, while Realmsian elves who were most like Feywild Elves (wild and wood) became *more like* Feywild Elves.
Ultimately, it comes down to a simple mechanical distinction, and flavor-wise, there doesn't have to be any distinction made at all. It's like the species distinction between Homo Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens: "Eladrin" is more or less a scientific term; the standard-usage "elves" is totally reasonable.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 02:35:13
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| that would be a decent explanation Erik. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 06:29:59
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I guess as the Learn'ed Eric says it comes down to semantics & mechanics.......so in 'reality' (sic) an elf by any other name is still an elf!!!
Now I'm really confused...... :-)-not really...thanks Eric for that succinct reply on the nature of 4E elves. I like it but I still think that all Elves born on Faerun pre-plague and those with Faerunian parents are Elves....all else are Eladrin....which I am sure of is a typo from Seldarine.....Seladrin......adding a layer of complexity to what it was supposed to clarify and simplify, really is just someone justifying their paycheck I'm sure....having said that there are solid reason why 4E exists....also some solid reasons why it needs a good kick in the (good intentions)!!! along with some major revisions so as to bring back together older and younger generational players. Just because it seemed like a good idea at the time doesn't mean you can't apply 20/20 hindsight when you realise you may have erred.....
So yes an Elf by any other name would smell as sweet.......well in my realms if you're an orc they do..... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Edited by - Snowblood on 26 Oct 2009 06:47:09 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 15:41:41
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| I read in one dragon magazine that near Chondalwood and that big forest in the Hordelands there are sun elves that have a lifestyle very alike to the wild elves, curious what would they be. |
z455t |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2009 : 00:42:09
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When I saw the title I had a long winded theory to expound on... Then I saw that it was about 4e terminology.
"When is an elf not an elf?" When they are dhaerow, of course. |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 07:54:29
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| but even a dhaerow is still an elf...just not a very welcome one..... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 10:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
When I saw the title I had a long winded theory to expound on... Then I saw that it was about 4e terminology.
"When is an elf not an elf?" When they are dhaerow, of course.
Yep, that's a problem when some OP does not mention (e.g. in the topic headline) that s/he is talking about the garbled 4E terminology - though bringing the word "eladrin" in there does make it pretty clear.
As for drow, personal opinion (in-setting or ex-setting) does not change a racial background. (Yeah, I know you were talking tongue-in-cheek, of course.) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 28 Oct 2009 11:23:06 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 12:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Yep, that's a problem when some OP does not mention (e.g. in the topic headline) that s/he is talking about the garbled 4E terminology - though bringing the word "eladrin" in there does make it pretty clear.
I second that. If I'd known the thread was about 4E before I wouldn't have bothered opening the scroll. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 12:56:10
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| flames not appreciated.....Wooley or Sage please seal this...... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 12:57:00
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| flames not appreciated.....Wooley or Sage please seal this...... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 16:23:51
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I look at it this way (when I was still thinking about the Realms at all ) -
The Eladrin are the 'Elite' - they are the 'upper crust' of Ælfin society - the 'aristocrats' if you will.
The are of the same race as 'the commoners', but they like to think they are above them - 'divine right' and all of that.
Now, amongst the aristocracy (of humans) there are two levels as well. Although all consider themselves 'noble', we have 'regular nobles' and 'Royalty' - those nobles related to the royal houses (in Elven terms, that would be those Coronals and Queens). The Gold's equate to those of Royal birth translated into human terms - they are even above their supposed 'peers'. Ergo, 'Eladrin' is simply a term for Elven nobility (who focus on different things then the commoners, and hence their different stats), and amongst themselves the 'Golds' consider themselves slightly higher then the 'Silvers'. Both groups look down upon their 'lesser kindred', some with disdain, some with pity.
On other worlds, it is the Gray (Silver) Elves that are the higher-ups. Every world is different. On Athas, Elves were all Wild, feral hunters.
Amongst the 'regular Elves' there is also a 'pecking order', with the Grugach (Wild Elves) being at the bottom (although some might say the Drow are at the bottom, but they're a whole 'nother ball of wax).
Elves also have the ability to adapt to their environment, so that further confuses the whole social stratification thing - there are actual physical differences, not just cosmetic. You will find that in rare instances you can have noble Green Elves and feral gold Elves. sea Elves, for instances, have evolved from all the others. You also have those that have adapted in strange ways that stand outside of the normal order - the Lythari and the Avariel.
It's just terminology and meaningless to game play - an Elf is an Elf is an Elf. Just pretend 'Eladrin' means 'Noble Elf' in some ancient fey dialect and your good to go. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2009 16:27:43 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 17:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
flames not appreciated.
There are no flames, at least not from me or Zanan. Yes, we went a bit off-topic but that is because what we said links to other discussions and this scroll supports one point of view.
Of course, there will always be differing points of view. Just relax a little please.
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Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2009 : 23:41:30
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| I think it best that all participating scribes simply re-evaluate how they wish to contribute to this scroll. And if any scribes has specific concerns about that, they should contact me via PM. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 00:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
flames not appreciated.....Wooley or Sage please seal this......
Matter of fact, I haven't got the foggiest what you are referring to? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 09:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
flames not appreciated.....Wooley or Sage please seal this......
Matter of fact, I haven't got the foggiest what you are referring to?
I think Snowblood thinks that you, Lady Fellshot and I are personally attacking him with our comments. I don't think we are doing this deliberately, or even obliquely. Rather I think our comments refer to earlier discussions about the whole divisiveness of 4E. Which has caused many scribes to simply leave or to spend more time with Pathfinder and the Paizo forums. The debate we are referring to is where those few scribes who wish to keep visiting the Candlekeep forums want to know how we handle the new influx of information. One proposal was to move 4E stuff to a new forum, which was rejected. Another is to ask thread originators to identify 4E topics in the title. This is, what I think, our comments are about.
Obviously, with the above I've strayed more off-topic, but only into a related topic. I'll not continue the debate here though.
The main point is that we're not getting at you, Snowblood. Why would we? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 13:50:07
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| some times to say nothing speaks volumes.........and wisely the wall he was standing next chose to remain silent on the matter... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 13:52:57
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| thanks Kiaransalynn...thats nice...I musta missed that stipulation that anything with a bit of 4E content must be flagged as such.....bit like listing the ingredients on the side of food packaging...we have truth in labelling laws in Candlekeep too...hmm go figure.... :-) (sheepish smile!!!!) |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 14:00:24
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| That being sorted, could someone please add a note to the topic's title that it is a 4e terminology discussion? [:) ] |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 14:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
I musta missed that stipulation that anything with a bit of 4E content must be flagged as such.
To be fair, there isn't a stipulation. It's in committee so to say. 
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Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 14:35:55
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| Snowblood ... I was merely pointing out to the Lady that the word "eladrin" - when it comes to elves - was first introduced with 4E, hence it became pretty clear what the OP (i.e. you) were looking for. Nothing more, nothing less. Surely no "attack" on 4E. Unless you refer to my "garbled" comment, though that word was used neutrally synonymous to "mix up, confuse", which is what 4E terminology arguably did to the "old" D&D term "eladrin". Obviously, a thread ain't solely meant to appease or cater to the OP, but other knowledge-seekers (such as the Lady) too. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 29 Oct 2009 14:36:52 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2009 : 17:34:28
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@ Snowblood - The side discussion on this scroll is exactly why I am an advocate for 4e tags on 4e scrolls.
If you had tagged the scroll with 4e in some manner, then the confusion would not have happened, and what you thought was flaming would not have occurred. Then, people interested in 4e would most likely have been the only ones to open the scroll, and therefore be the most likely to have given you the type of responses you wanted.
Seriously, for me it is more a matter of clarity rather than prejudice. If you do not want non-4e scribes commenting on your 4e scrolls, then let them know that it is a 4e scroll to begin with. Most will likely just pass it by. It is not, however, mandatory. Nor do I see the head scribes ever making it so. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 29 Oct 2009 17:36:24 |
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2009 : 10:07:54
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| pursed lips....whistling quietly in the corner........... |
Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2009 : 17:00:05
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| I would say that Eldarin are to elves what Aasimon are to humans. Eldarin are the Sidhe of Celtic myth and are not appropriate for a player character unless playing a high powered campaign where Aasimmon, Baatezu, Tanari'i and other outsiders are also available for PCs. Also, some of the limitations placed on Eldarin as to how much of their abilities they can manifest without being banished from the prime material plane places some additional hindrances on playing one as a character. |
Edited by - Caedwyr on 03 Nov 2009 01:03:54 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2009 : 02:20:39
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I believe in matters of in-game play, eladrin (sun, moon, and star elves) and elf (wood and wild) are all called elf.
For example, if Tharin the barkeep sees two eladrins and an elf walking into his establishment he would just say "three elves came in". Are the two eladrin different than the elf in terms of game mechanics? Yes. But to the local populace of Faerun (including sun, moon, star, wood, and wild elves) they're just known as elves. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2009 : 06:37:57
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An idea occurred to me and disturbed the mental cobwebs.
I seem to recall that the game mechanic shift in terminology was independent of the novels leading up to the 4e stuff and that the explanation was that gold and silver elves had always been "eladrin" and with all other elven subraces being "elves." At least that's what I gathered from my very, very brief foray into 4e gameplay (yes, I played before dismissing it entirely).
Within the setting, would it be plausible that only certain groups of very elitist elves (3e elves, mind you) would be calling themselves "eladrin" in accordance with shifting closer to the Fey-whatsit? Maybe Shelsharra Durothil and company got a little swollen between the pointy ears and started applying the term only to certain "worthy" elven clans.
If one runs with the idea that "eladrin" and "elves" are two different branches from the evolutionary tree (so to speak), then what are the rules regarding cross breeding between "eladrin" and "elves"? Also, if one tries to explain that the spellplague accelerated evolution to less than one generation (which would be the minimum for a mass mutation to take hold for traditional evolution), then how are mixed race elves classified? Yes, I know the populations are likely small, but still... To touch on Scribe De Bie's example, no one is entirely sure if Neanderthal humans were a human subspecies or not. No one has been able to conclusively prove or disprove interbreeding with Cro-Magnons as far as I know.
I'd take an excess of hubris and political scheming over major physiological change because the stats for the elven subraces were different before the cosmic mistake and it was possible to have offspring that could reproduce with any other elf regardless of subrace, IIRC. That isn't a hallmark of different species, but it is one of subspecies.
Now I'm going to go wash my mind out with lye soap. 4e makes my logic train derail sometimes... and I think it happened again. Sorry if I rambled a bit. |
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when is an elf not an elf????? 3rd and 4E content.
