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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
 Posted - 10 May 2013 : 13:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Although bladelings and tieflings (and halflings!) may have some similarity in species nomenclature, their initial inceptions otherwise had absolutely nothing in common at all.
They have, in Planescape there were rumors about their tiefling ancestry. They wandered the planes before settling in Acheron.
Bane wasn't their god, but Hriste the Blood Forest, and possibly Amatsu-Mikaboshi - japanese power. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 14:16:44
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The Bladelings Origin or plane of origin have never been revealed, so I just default to Bane made them, because its in the basic lore about Bladeling and they fit FR Bane as much as Core Bane thematically.
I guess they could have been made by Tempus or Gorgos before Gorgos went nuts. If Tempus it'd make for less evilly inclined Bladelings. I don't have insider, otherise I'd know if the recent Bladeling artical addressed this or not.
Its a Shame that the Wondering Monster Articles haven't gotten to Tieflings, Bladelings, or Aasmir yet. Probably because Tieflings haven't been revealed as a playable race yet |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 14:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The Bladelings Origin or plane of origin have never been revealed, so I just default to Bane made them, because its in the basic lore about Bladeling and they fit FR Bane as much as Core Bane thematically.
I always tended to assume that they originated as tieflings descended from the long extinct hassitor, a race of outsiders native to Acheron (as the bladelings are themselves natives there as well). But it's not something I'd have put in print, since the mystery of their origin and their xenophobic secrecy was a big thing of theirs. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2013 : 21:03:59
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I'd thought the hassitor were known to exist only through the ruins of their civilization scattered through two or three of Acheron's four layers. I'm inclined to believe their race (along with military artifacts like their hassitoria, cubical fortress-outposts, and war machinery) originated on some Prime which long-ago drifted or coalesced into what is now Acheron.
Acheron is also composed of elements (like goblinoid legions, fantastic siege engines, and incomprehensible weaponry) from a countless other militant worlds, so it seems more likely to me that bladelings originated elsewhere than from the same place as the hassitor. Assuming bladelings weren't "evolved" or reshaped as some sort of Baatorian supersoldier experiment. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2013 : 00:46:21
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The existence of one possibility does not necessarily negate the plausibility of the other possibility.
To the first part - After tens (hundreds?) of thousands of years, whatever race the Bladelings did descend from may have been very different then the Bladelings, and may have been the Hassitor. And you are right - it may have very well been some form of (Fiendish?) experimentation that transformed (some of) them. There may be as many different types of Hassitor descendent races as their are types of elves, or dwarves, or fey, etc.
As to the second part, Maybe Acheron wasn't always Acheron. Maybe the Hassitor/Bladleings lived on some world somewhere, and that world became the plane of Acheron (for whatever reason). Just as the Domains of Dread began with Ravenloft, so too could Acheron have begun with Hassitor Prime (their home world). And as you have stated - and just like Ravenloft - other groups have been added to the mix throughout the years. In fact, I think ALL planes are like Ravenloft - they absorb bits and pieces of other places, and loose chunks in kind. The Spellplague could very well have been just one of a continuous parade of planer conjunctions.
As to what I think Shemmy meant - the Hassitor are not around anymore, just as the Batarachi, Aearee, or True fey are not around anymore. They've all become something else... probably hundreds of different 'something elses'. The Bladelings aren't THE Hassitor; its just that the original Hassitor may have been template upon which they were built (either on-purpose or by not-so-natural evolution).
In fact, when I look at Bladelings (and Chain devils) I tend to think of them as something akin to ST's Borg; they were something else, and something happened to them. Now they aren't wholly organic anymore. Maybe they caught a techno-organic virus from the Modrons or something. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 16:05:02
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| Its tricky to figure out what the past of the Bladelings are in FR because while Bladelings are in FR, thier past/origin hasn't been explained. Right now they just appear to be Planar Mercs. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 17:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I actually like Mike Mearls plans for the 5e tiefling, subraces tied to the planes.
So if you prefer a random fiendish mutant like in previous editions, go with say Abyassal or Pandamodium tieflings, you want more orderly go with Infernal tieflings, with other subraces inbetween.
Best solution imo.
This is the first I've heard of this. Do you have a link? |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 20:23:56
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Yes, I'd like to see a link myself. I could have sworn someone mentioned this earlier in the thread...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just had an idea... are all Tieflings devil-spawn? Maybe the 'they all look alike' variety are Hell-specific, and the ones that all look different (with varying degrees of 'humaness') are demonic in origin.
That was on the 3rd of May.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2013 : 23:10:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I actually like Mike Mearls plans for the 5e tiefling, subraces tied to the planes.
So if you prefer a random fiendish mutant like in previous editions, go with say Abyassal or Pandamodium tieflings, you want more orderly go with Infernal tieflings, with other subraces inbetween.
Best solution imo.
This is the first I've heard of this. Do you have a link?
Paizo has something like this, too, which I think is a really good idea. And as I recall, there was a web enhancement in 3E proposing something similar -- giving your tieflings a distinct heritage. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2013 : 10:19:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The Bladelings Origin or plane of origin have never been revealed, so I just default to Bane made them, because its in the basic lore about Bladeling and they fit FR Bane as much as Core Bane thematically.
I always tended to assume that they originated as tieflings descended from the long extinct hassitor, a race of outsiders native to Acheron (as the bladelings are themselves natives there as well). But it's not something I'd have put in print, since the mystery of their origin and their xenophobic secrecy was a big thing of theirs.
Another theory I've seen is that they're descended from hellforged devils from Dragon #306. |
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Edited by - Marc on 21 May 2013 10:20:29 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2013 : 17:13:15
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Oh, and speaking both about how frequently they are CE or not, as well as Elven outrage about their shining blood getting mixed with various weird stuff- let me drop just one line (from "On Hallowed Ground")?
Moonsilver (Px (Sehanine)/n tiefling/R10/CG)
The details get even more amusing awkward, of course.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gambit
Learned Scribe
110 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2013 : 21:08:56
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For the Paizo reference mentioned above check out the Blood of Fiends supplement. Lots of good info in there, including the specific fiend-spawn Tieflings can be and also d100 tables with various alternate abilities and alternate physical features. Also here is a good link
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling
I for one am ecstatic that everything is being brought back to a Planescape chassis, including tieflings of various natures. They are making the right call by eschewing the 4E way of things and returning it to its proper fashion, such as "high elves" not eladrins (who are hopefully returned to being CG celestial outsiders).
Erin, are you intimately familiar with Planescape material and lore, including the excellent "Hellbound: The Blood War" supplement? If not you should be.  |
Edited by - Gambit on 18 Aug 2013 21:10:16 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 16:03:03
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| Well, yeah. Then there are Bloodline padding levels from 3e UA. Suffers from common d20 clumsiness, of course, and fails to integrate as much as root bloodline feats, but may be the least broken way to handle this matter with the given tools. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 23:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Tieflings ... and fey'ri are essentially nothing but elven tieflings ...
Actually I think they are elven half-fiends. If they bred with normal elves their offspring should be elven tieflings |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 23:50:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Tieflings ... and fey'ri are essentially nothing but elven tieflings ...
Actually I think they are elven half-fiends. If they bred with normal elves their offspring should be elven tieflings
The daemonfey of House Dlardrageth were 1/2 fiends. Their subsequent tiefling offspring are the fey'ri. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2013 : 23:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Tieflings ... and fey'ri are essentially nothing but elven tieflings ...
Actually I think they are elven half-fiends. If they bred with normal elves their offspring should be elven tieflings
The daemonfey of House Dlardrageth were 1/2 fiends. Their subsequent tiefling offspring are the fey'ri.
I thought the 1/2-fiends bred only whith each other to keep their offspring half-fiends.
Fiend + Elf = Fey'ri (aka elven half-fiends)
Fey'ri + Elf = Elven tiefling (or normal elf with the "tiefling gene" slumbering in their bloodlines to awaken once in a while later down the family tree)
Fey'ri + Fey'ri = Fey'ri (Dlardrageth's prefered breeding to keep the fiendblood from being thinned too much and their offspring turning into mere tieflings)
Fey'ri are too half-fiendish to be tieflings (which don't carry as major marks as Fey'ri's functional wings, which are a trademark of half-fiends) |
Edited by - Mirtek on 19 Aug 2013 23:54:36 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 04:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Tieflings ... and fey'ri are essentially nothing but elven tieflings ...
Actually I think they are elven half-fiends. If they bred with normal elves their offspring should be elven tieflings
Yes. And specifically Abyssal-Elven tieflings are called fey'ri. Just like Alu-fiend is a special case of generic cambions. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2013 : 16:48:58
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| A minor error. I think the bigger point is that it will be a type of tiefling, which means it may end up as as a subrace in the PHB. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 06:20:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
A minor error. I think the bigger point is that it will be a type of tiefling, which means it may end up as as a subrace in the PHB.
It wasn't a type of tiefling from the start? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1625 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 17:55:03
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| It was a seperate race, at least in 3.x. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 18:39:15
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| Tieflings were originally humans with some fiendish ancestry. A lot of people tended to extend that to any demihuman with fiendish ancestry. It appears this is going to be the official stance. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Aug 2013 18:40:28 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 20:42:00
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Originally - in 1e times -, there were alu-fiends, the offspring of male humans and female demons (succubus, specifically), and cambions, the offspring of male demons and female humans. I haven't found quick references about them being the offspring of demihumans, though, but back then humans were the most prolific and prone to interbreeding race.
In 2e times, tieflings were created, as a more playable race with subtle demonic features. They were also "part human, part something else". Their origin was from the lower planes, and after that the aasimar were created, near the end of the 2e. It was somewhere between 2e and 3.5 that other planar races were created, like the genasi.
As for the fey'ri, they first appeared, if I'm not wrong, in the Hellgate Keep 2e adventure, and they were later expanded in the 2e Cloak and Dagger sourcebook. The Dlardrageth were then considered quite unique cambions, as was Kannyr Vhok (who had alu-fiends allies, BTW), and most of the fey'ri/daemonfey were called half-elf tieflings, some of them having unique statistics.
After that I don't know what was made of these races, except that tieflings gained a more demonic appearance in 4e. As for the new rending of fey'ri s tieflings, let's wait and see what will be done. At least part of the original fey'ri could pass for elves, and maybe infiltrate their society. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2013 : 21:18:07
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| I notice that sarya dlardrageth is a demonfey and her sons were too,even though their fathers were full blooded true tanari(her dad was a baler,her sons fathers were glabrezu,and vrock demons.do you think malkizid impregnated her in the last mythal?if so what would it be? |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2013 : 00:51:48
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| Daemonfey was usually the term used to indicate gold elf/fiend half-bloods, while fey‘ri indicated a diluted bloodline analogous to human tieflings. These creatures also sometimes use the two terms more specifically in an honorific or insulting manner, as the “true“ daemonfey are invariably already sired by prominent houses and bloodlines on their elven side. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2013 : 05:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tieflings were originally humans with some fiendish ancestry. A lot of people tended to extend that to any demihuman with fiendish ancestry. It appears this is going to be the official stance.
There are 2e tieflings with specifically non-human mortal heritage. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2013 : 16:25:57
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Found this note in Cloak and Dagger:
"The following information employs the terms 'cambion', 'alu-fiend' and 'tiefling' somewhat differently than the PANESCAPE MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM in order to reflect a richer set of relationships. Cambions are descended from either human (or demihuman) and tanar'ri ancestors, with at least half of their bloodline of demonic origin. Alu-fiends are a subgroup of cambion with one succubus or incubus parent. Tanar'ric tieflings are descended from human (or demihuman) ancestors with less than half of their bloodline being of demonic origin.
Cambions of human ancestry are always of the same gender as their most immediate tanar'ric ancestor, but cambions of elven ancestry are not similarly restricted, given their androgynous nature. Cambions of human ancestry exhibit fairly regular and predictable abilities, regardless of their demonic parentage, whereas cambions of elven ancestry exhibit more unique characteristics, due in part to their more magical nature. Finally, cambions of elven ancestry are known either as half-elf cambions or as daemonfey, while tieflings of elven descent are known either as half-elf tieflings or as fey'ri." |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2013 : 16:37:37
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Hail and well met,
Having written the 4e Fey'ri article and being currently the only author to include fey'ri in an active series of Realms novels, not to mention having studied Cloak and Dagger extensively for both purposes, I am pretty much the closest thing to an expert we have on the subject of the Daemonfey and fey'ri.
So here goes:
"Daemonfey" is not properly a racial name. "Daemonfey" is the name of a particular collection of mostly sun elf houses, led by House Dlardrageth, that interbred with demons in order to "strengthen" their bloodline. Humans often make the error of calling this race of creatures "daemonfey" when accurately they are called by the name the elves gave them, which is "fey'ri," roughly translated to "elf-demon." Pretty on-the-nose there.
What folks are calling "daemonfey" are really half-elf, half-demons, so "cambion" or "alu-fiend" is a relatively proper term.
Fey'ri are NOT the same as human tieflings, nor are Tanarukk. Each is its own distinct race of beings. They all fall under the "planetouched" category, which includes genasi, aasimar, etc.
Many human sources have (I would argue improperly) called fey'ri "tieflings," and while that's inaccurate from a strict biological standpoint, one can understasnd the confusion. To call fey'ri or tanarukk subraces of tiefling is relatively convenient, though then we'd need a subrace name for the dominant Asmodean-legacy tiefling of which so much fuss was rightly made in 4e, to distinguish them from the overall "tiefling" category and ostensibly from the "varied appearance" tieflings of 2e and 3e.
Personally, for Asmodean tieflings I recommend "infernal tiefling," "hellfire tiefling," or the simple but evocative "hellspawn."
For general "I have a fiend in my heritage" tieflings, I'd go with "fiendborn" or something of that nature.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2013 : 17:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Fey'ri are NOT the same as human tieflings, nor are Tanarukk. Each is its own distinct race of beings. They all fall under the "planetouched" category, which includes genasi, aasimar, etc.
Just to clarify, are you saying that fey'ri (as descended from the daemonfey) are a distinct tiefling subtype for lack of better words, or are you saying that any elven tiefling would be considered a fey'ri?
The first is perfectly reasonable, while the latter would be contradicted by instances of non-fey'ri elven descended tieflings in previous lore. Tieflings as a group aren't human specific for their mortal heritage, though perhaps predominant. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Fey'ri & Tiefling Question
