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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 15:59:56
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Well, they're not artillery, so obviously they're not cannons.
On a more serious note, they're probably canon. Not primary canon, but secondary canon, as they're not from a sourcebook. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 19:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Well, they're not artillery, so obviously they're not cannons.
On a more serious note, they're probably canon. Not primary canon, but secondary canon, as they're not from a sourcebook.
Thank you very much. Do you know if Snow elves are canon? I read somewhere that rumors speak of them in the High Ice or something. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 20:11:19
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I'm not recalling mention of either in published Realmslore.
I'm going to be eyeballing that Dragon magazine article sometime this eve; I've got the pdf, but it's not handy at the moment. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 23:13:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not recalling mention of either in published Realmslore.
I'm going to be eyeballing that Dragon magazine article sometime this eve; I've got the pdf, but it's not handy at the moment.
Excellent! Let me know about either when you can. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 02:44:07
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Well, that web article appears to be the entire text of the Dragon article -- which, I will note, never specifies anything that ties the ghost elves to any particular campaign setting.
So there's nothing that says the ghost elves are canon D&D, much less FR canon. At most, I'd consider them "backdoor canon." That's my way of thinking of things that are not written into the Realms setting, but exist in the same D&D multiverse that the Realms and other published D&D settings exist in.
Like kender in the Realms or halflings on Krynn -- kender are native to Krynn, but can (and have) traveled to the Realms, and Krynn has no halflings, but nothing says a halfling or several can't spelljam or planeswalk to Krynn.
So ghost elves don't exist in the Realms, per FR lore, but if they exist elsewhere in the D&Dverse, then they can appear in the Realms.
I personally would not include them, though. I think the Realms has enough flavors of elf, and I've never been fond of the niche races. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 03:48:00
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The Snow Elves article states that they inhabit the Crystalmist Mountains in Greyhawk and may be present in the Flanaess. No FR references in the ghost elves article that I can see - they live on the Ethereal Plane and worship ... Moradin.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 03:58:35
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-Not to, you know, insult the author, but that's uh...well, not a very good article in my opinion.
-Given the whole "were on the Material Plane but then got shunted to a different plane" thing, I think Star Elves can fit that basic story archetype if you want to modify it. Maybe a group of Yuirsharyaaran Elves didn't exactly create their Yuir menhir properly and got shunted to the Etheral Plane instead of the Sildeyuir. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 04:08:17
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| Snow elves are original - long ago - to Greyhawk. Ghost elves never were in anything but the one article in Dragon. Like Rockseer elves from the Night Below box, you could work either into the realms without difficulty, but that is about all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 04:16:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Not to, you know, insult the author, but that's uh...well, not a very good article in my opinion.
I wasn't impressed, myself, but as I said, I don't care for niche races -- so I was not going into the article with an entirely neutral stance. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 14:27:52
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| Snow Elves are canon to the realms as well. Maybe in anauroch… forget their mention. Maybe in Sossal. Its also hinted that the elves in Anchorome MAY HAVE BEEN snow elves. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2018 : 14:42:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Like kender in the Realms or halflings on Krynn -- kender are native to Krynn, but can (and have) traveled to the Realms
I just had this mental picture of the Chosen and all their rivals setting aside their grudges to hunt down each and every kender that's made its way into the Realms with extreme prejudice.
Obligatory kender pic: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Kender_race_description_annotated.png |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 02:19:32
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Hmmm, reading that on the ghost elves makes me think they'd be a decent type of elf to have on the moon/Selune. Since some were looking for places to hide after escaping from the nine hells, I can see Leira offering them a place, and thus the elves might be Leirans instead of worshippers of Moradin. Perhaps they fled their ethereal home when it was invaded by drow or devils. With their glowing skin, mirror like eyes, etc... they'd fit the vibe of living on Selune. Having a portal on Selune that opens to a captured Ghost Elven City on the Ethereal could be interesting.
That being said, I'd been playing with the idea that the Arak/Ellefolk/"Shadow Elves of Ravenloft" would also fit in well with the moon (doing it that this aren't the "Arak" as in those who went to ravenloft, but perhaps some of the Ellefolk who escaped the plane of shadow at another time). Those ellefolk though are "fey" and come in a lot of different forms, not just elven looking. Hell, given the latest trend with Shadar-Kai being elven offshoots, these Ellefolk and the Arak and the Shadar-Kai may all have some common origins.
It might actually be interesting to have two groups of "fey" who had been trapped and escaped both occupying the moon actually (one having escaped the shadowfell, the other having escaped Hell) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 09:43:01
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Like kender in the Realms or halflings on Krynn -- kender are native to Krynn, but can (and have) traveled to the Realms
I just had this mental picture of the Chosen and all their rivals setting aside their grudges to hunt down each and every kender that's made its way into the Realms with extreme prejudice.
Obligatory kender pic: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Kender_race_description_annotated.png
Don't know who did that notation, and I know its meant to be funny, but I think that about sums up the way I perceive modern D&D staff looking at old D&D. I think they look at the work of their predecessors and think "I could do better than this," forgetting that without the early creators like Ed, Gary, and yes Margaret and Tracy, there would be no D&D for them to mutilate with their World of Warcraft and Cthulhu wannabe crap.
Kender are fabulous characters and with a good player (I know those are short in supply) add a lot of entertainment. In the couple Dragonlance campaigns I ran, I was thrilled when someone chose to role play a kender. They also made many of the Dragonlance novels better, and even that crossover one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 09:59:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Snow Elves are canon to the realms as well. Maybe in anauroch… forget their mention. Maybe in Sossal. Its also hinted that the elves in Anchorome MAY HAVE BEEN snow elves.
Any chance you can cite this? Can't say I've ever stumbled on that one. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 20:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Snow Elves are canon to the realms as well. Maybe in anauroch… forget their mention. Maybe in Sossal. Its also hinted that the elves in Anchorome MAY HAVE BEEN snow elves.
Any chance you can cite this? Can't say I've ever stumbled on that one.
I also would like to know where you may have read that, as I'd like to include Snow elves in my realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2018 : 22:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Snow Elves are canon to the realms as well. Maybe in anauroch… forget their mention. Maybe in Sossal. Its also hinted that the elves in Anchorome MAY HAVE BEEN snow elves.
Any chance you can cite this? Can't say I've ever stumbled on that one.
Had to google. Let's call it semi-canon, its a rumor in a dragon article. Dragon article in Dragon #236
Tarsellis is the patron god of those known as snow elves, who mainly inhabit the Crystalmist mountains of Oerth. (Rumor has it that snow elves also exist on the far reaches of the Spine of the World or even the High Ice portion of Anauroch in Faerûn, though this is unproven.) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 00:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Like kender in the Realms or halflings on Krynn -- kender are native to Krynn, but can (and have) traveled to the Realms
I just had this mental picture of the Chosen and all their rivals setting aside their grudges to hunt down each and every kender that's made its way into the Realms with extreme prejudice.
Obligatory kender pic: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Kender_race_description_annotated.png
Don't know who did that notation, and I know its meant to be funny, but I think that about sums up the way I perceive modern D&D staff looking at old D&D. I think they look at the work of their predecessors and think "I could do better than this," forgetting that without the early creators like Ed, Gary, and yes Margaret and Tracy, there would be no D&D for them to mutilate with their World of Warcraft and Cthulhu wannabe crap.
Kender are fabulous characters and with a good player (I know those are short in supply) add a lot of entertainment. In the couple Dragonlance campaigns I ran, I was thrilled when someone chose to role play a kender. They also made many of the Dragonlance novels better, and even that crossover one.
It's seriously unfair to write off people who dislike kender as 'mutilating D&D'. Dragonlance's joke races (kender, tinker gnomes, gully dwarves) have always been divisive, and the kender take the bulk of the blame for being a race with ADD written into their character. They're the race of eternal children with no concept of boundaries and personal property.
Hell, they were every bit as bad in 2e. No other race has invited the kind of scorn the kender have. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2018 : 14:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Like kender in the Realms or halflings on Krynn -- kender are native to Krynn, but can (and have) traveled to the Realms
I just had this mental picture of the Chosen and all their rivals setting aside their grudges to hunt down each and every kender that's made its way into the Realms with extreme prejudice.
Obligatory kender pic: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Kender_race_description_annotated.png
Don't know who did that notation, and I know its meant to be funny, but I think that about sums up the way I perceive modern D&D staff looking at old D&D. I think they look at the work of their predecessors and think "I could do better than this," forgetting that without the early creators like Ed, Gary, and yes Margaret and Tracy, there would be no D&D for them to mutilate with their World of Warcraft and Cthulhu wannabe crap.
Kender are fabulous characters and with a good player (I know those are short in supply) add a lot of entertainment. In the couple Dragonlance campaigns I ran, I was thrilled when someone chose to role play a kender. They also made many of the Dragonlance novels better, and even that crossover one.
I've had kender in two campaigns. The person running them HAS to have the right mindset. The first campaign was when I was just out of high school, and the person was playing "Tifflehoot Virsteele", and he played the kender like a curious (sometimes perverted, but hey, we were young men) child who literally was stealing the stupidest things you could think of. The next game I played, the person played the kender like a min/max'd killer looking for loot. It fit psychotic halfling, not kender. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2018 : 00:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Snow Elves are canon to the realms as well. Maybe in anauroch… forget their mention. Maybe in Sossal. Its also hinted that the elves in Anchorome MAY HAVE BEEN snow elves.
Any chance you can cite this? Can't say I've ever stumbled on that one.
Had to google. Let's call it semi-canon, its a rumor in a dragon article. Dragon article in Dragon #236
Tarsellis is the patron god of those known as snow elves, who mainly inhabit the Crystalmist mountains of Oerth. (Rumor has it that snow elves also exist on the far reaches of the Spine of the World or even the High Ice portion of Anauroch in Faerûn, though this is unproven.)
Thank you. That's good enough for me to have snow elves in the realms. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2018 : 22:10:01
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-I honestly don't remember if it was myself or Markus (or both of us?) that wrote this:
"To the esteemed scholar, Athol of Candlekeep, does Daerian Sunstar, historian and loremaster of her majesty Queen Amlauril, send greetings. I have recently come across some information that has caused some consternation here in the Elven court. As you
know, we have long prided ourselves on keeping in contact with others of our race, despite the sometimes vast distances that separate us. However, our good Prince Lamruil may have uncovered a bit of lore concerning a hitherto unknown branch of my people. Unfortunately, there is no hard evidence, only conjecture on his part and the part of others traveling with him. I give you the following excerpt from his journal, and ask that you keep it in utmost secrecy, for reasons I am not at liberty to discuss. Please take the time to read through it, and I ask that perhaps you and your fellow scholars might have something to add to this puzzle amongst your vast storehouse of knowledge.”
-Daerian Sunstar, Loremaster of Evermeet, DR 1374
Day 23: I am sad to report that we have lost two of our party, Quinanne Windrider and Estefan Zandarius, last night after an attack by large shaggy humanoid beasts vaguely resembling carnivorous apes.
We were able to drive the creatures off, but not before they were able to steal quite a bit of our supplies. Wemay have need to create a gate back to a civilized region, something I am loath to do for obvious reasons.
Day 24: Members of the party had been expressing concerns about our supplies, and some have suggested turning back. However, a most
wondrous thing occurred today! While we were pushing our way through yet another blizzard (and making little headway), we were approached by several beings that were bundled up in heavy furs, from head to foot, and even had their faces covered by cloth. It was
immediately obvious that they meant us no harm, and they motioned for us to follow them. Not wishing to be out in this weather any longer, we did so with little hesitation. Soon we came upon a small encampment of tiny structures that appeared to be made entirely from
the snow itself! We had to crawl though the narrow openings, but once inside we found it was not nearly as uncomfortable as it looked.
Some of us were able to squeeze into the snow houses, while others assisted our new hosts with the building of several more to accommodate the rest of us. The person who had first approached us lit a small fire in the center of the building, and I noted a small
hole in the domed roof to allow smoke to escape. The structures, which we later learned were called igloos, were an ingenious affair that utilized available materials and somehow managed to keep us warm and
protected. Once the fire was going, our host pulled back his hood, and uncovered his face. Imagine my surprise to find a Half-Orc grinning back at me!
Day 25: This morning, the snow stopped falling, and we awoke to a bright, sunny day. We had a few very tense moments last night, when my party and I realized we had been invited to spend the night with
Half-Orcs. Several of our brasher members went so far as to draw weapons, but when our hosts just looked surprised rather then threatening we were soon able to work things out. In early light of morning, the Tlok’olontithis is what our hosts referred to themselves as- broke camp, and headed north. Since we were heading in the
same direction we decided to follow along, to learn more about these fascinating people. Later in the day they taught us how to ice
fish, a marvelous technique where you walk out upon the surface of frozen water and cut a hole in the ice itself, then drop a line into the hole and catch fish. We immediately realized that the Seldarine had answered our prayers, and though we might soon become sick of
fish, we were not going to starve. The hunters also carried several animal carcasses laid across litters that they dragged behind them, sliding along in the snow. It seems our fears of not finding any game to forage have been laid to rest as well, at least for now.
We soon came upon a small village of perhaps 100 inhabitants, all of whom were Half-Orcs, or, at least so we believe. Unlike most of their kind, these beings were all very similar looking, with a uniform hairiness and tiny almost imperceptible tusks. This leads me to believe that these people have evolved well beyond the normal cross-breed of Human and Orc that can normally be encountered anywhere on
Faerûn. It is as if they have become a race unto themselves. I was introduced to Ta’Tarka, their chief, and a feast of fish and walrus- some kind of arctic, saber-toothed manatee- was prepared in our honor.
Day 26: Today another larger group of hunters arrived back in the village, and this group were riding on sleds, drawn by wolves, of all things! At first, the wolves were not very happy about our presence, for the tribe did not often entertain Eleshnou- their word for
us, which we mistakenly took to mean ‘outsiders’. Once things settled down a bit, some of us tried to learn a bit of their strange tongue. Unfortunately, Estefan Zandarius was our resident linguist. To further
complicate things, his spellbook was lost, preventing the rest of the magicians with us from magically communicating with these people. During the rest of the day we learned a few words, and learned even more about survival in this region. Our own rangers were taught how to track and find game in this hostile environment, whilst the rest of us were shown how to erect shelters and other new things. We found that they had at least fifty different words for snow, but the most common generic term was ‘shnai’. I plan on resting here for another day or two, and then moving on, with our newfound knowledge aiding us.
Day 27: The attack came suddenly and without warning. The entire village was up in arms, grabbing their spears and running to face the invaders. At first we mistook them for Bugbears, or some sort of small Ogres, but as they came nearer we realized they were human… and something a little bit less. They were massive, standing nearly seven foot tall, with great hairy arms swinging huge clubs, and their faces were covered with enough hair to make a Dwarf proud. At first, they held the advantage over our hosts, due to their sheer ferocity and the surprise of their assault. They didn’t count on us however, and after lobbing a few fireballs into their midst, they fled in panic. I examined one of our fallen foes, and it looked, for all the world, like a large, primitive human. The Half-Orcs called them ‘Tlok’Oomanu’. Only one villager died, a small child, but the invaders lost seventeen of their number, mostly to our magic. After the mess was cleaned up and the bodies removedmost were fed to the wolves- I asked Ta’Tarka about the strange ‘men’, and was also curious about
something else. Although our understanding of their language is very rudimentary, I was given the impression that these other people attacked every so often, along with other tribes of creatures.
Curious about what they called the different racial groups, I took out a history book I had brought with me that contained several illustrations. I pointed to one of a Dwarf battling an Orc, and he identified the Orc as ‘Olonti’, but he laughed at the Dwarf and said ‘Inugaakalakurit’. I am still not sure if he was making a
joke, or telling me the creature’s name. However, I realized from the Orc name that the prefix ‘Tlok’ obviously was some sort of descriptor
for ‘not’, which I had mistakenly thought meant something to do with being a native of this snowy wasteland. Then I took out some small drawings I had done by a fine artist awhile back on Evermeet, and I showed him a picture I had of a Harper friend of mine. Sure enough, he identified the Half-Elf as ‘Tlok’eleshnou’, or a ‘Not Elf’. Then I had an idea. I took out another picture, this one of my dear sister, Amnestria, and showed it to the chieftain. He pointed to my sister and said ‘Eleshnou’. I was dumbfounded. Here, I had thought ‘eleshnou’ was their word for ‘guest’ or ‘outsider’, but clearly they had a word in their language for Elf. pointed to the picture of my sister again, and then to myself saying ‘Eleshnou’, and then I gestured to the wild lands about the village and asked ‘Eleshnou’? He made a hand gesture that indicated no, and I was saddened at first. Then he leaned in very close, pointed to some mountains in the distance, and whispered
"Shnai’eleshnou". Snow Elves! He pointed to the mountains, and with what appeared to be extreme reverence, said Snow Elves. Never in my life had I expected such a thing, nor heard of it. Unfortunately the
mountains were located quite a bit to the East, a direction in which we were not heading.
Day 28: I tried to convince my group that a side trip to the east might prove fruitful, but they reminded me of the importance of our primary task. The chief, seeing my dismay, waved for me to come over to his simple dwelling, and ushered me inside. He reached beneath his sleeping mat and pulled forth a well-made spear, its head wrapped in cloth. He carefully untied the string binding the cloth, and unveiled the treasure he kept so well hidden. The head of the spear was made from Glassteel, or something very much like it. I as I stared at it in disbelief, my host once again with a knowing smile whispered ‘Shnai’eleshnou’. I am now thoroughly convinced that there is something to these Snow Elves, and hope that someday in the future someone will be able to confirm it. Unfortunately, we left the camp midmorning, and headed further from the mystery. I am sending this portion of my journal back to Evermeet by the usual means, with hopes that this information gets passed on to those with more idle time on their hands and an adventurers soul.
"Daerian Sunstar, it is always a pleasure to help a fellow scholar, especially those of Evermeet. I managed to convince a number of sages here at Candlekeep of the importance of this task without allowing them to be privy to your enclosed missive, as per your request. I find it curious that the first group of creatures referred to in your Prince’s journal sound like Yetis, man-like beasts normally only found
in the Spine of the World Mountains and the areas surrounding the Reghed Glacier. The name given for the Dwarves is the name of a race of barbaric dwarves living on the Great Glacier, half a world away! Despite my overwhelming curiosity, I will however remain discreet I regret that we here at the Keep were only able to find two other mentions of ‘Snow Elves’ amongst our numerous tomes and scrolls. Also, both references, I’m afraid, were second-hand. The first was from a group of adventurers who lived in Ten Towns, in Icewind Dale. One of their number, a young man by the name of Wulfgar, was a barbarian of the Reghedmen people, living in that far northern wasteland. Although he was adopted by the Battlehammer Dwarves at an early age, he still remembers some of the tales told by Skalds when he was a boy, and we were fortunate enough to have one of our number record some of these stories during his stay in Luskan. One such tale featured a mighty warrior- they ALL featured mighty warriors, mind you- who found himself lost in a snowstorm in the far north and separated from his companions. Near death, he came upon a clearing where the “snow toucheth not the land, and a strange unworldly music playeth upon the wind”. There he met a group of beings he referred to as Huldrufolk who fed him and helped him get back to his companions. It is somewhat unclear from the story, but these ‘Huldrufolk’ are described as “short, slight beings, fair of face and narrow of eye, with ears that came to high points”. Unfortunately, this is just a fable of a primitive tribe of people, and difficult to verify. The second reference is only slightly more reliable, and comes from none other then Dabron Sashenstar, the legendary adventurer and explorer. After his recent miraculous return, he was able to provide a sage in our employ with copies of his ‘lost’ journals, detailing his original foray into Pelvuria, the Great Glacier. The Ulutiun people, who appear to be distant relatives of the Tuigan, told the intrepid adventurer about a group of Elves, called Ishigaq, that live in the northernmost section of the Glacier. Curious, he left most of his group camped at an Ulutiun village, and traveled by sled for several days using one of the locals as a guide. They entered a region known as ‘the faerie ice’, a dangerous local phenomenon, and carefully made their way through nearly a mile of the stuff. After what seemed like an eternity, they came upon what the erstwhile explorer describes as a ‘winter wonderland’. It was a forest, but made entirely of some sort of crystalline plants, appearing like trees of ice! This is where his guide told him the Ishigaq live, but save for some evidence of habitation long in the past, there was little trace of sentient beings about. He did notice several wolves prowling the outskirts of the area, though, and thought it best to leave before nightfall. On his way out, he noticed something sticking out of the snow, and he reached to retrieve it. It was beautifully crafted doll of an Elf woman in perfect condition. How it got there, he could not say, but he did notice a small wolf cub eyeing him thoughtfully as he made he way out of the crystal forest. He returned to the village without ever having seen a single Elf, but the eyes of the wolf cub haunted his dreams that night. When he awoke in the morning, the doll he had found was gone, and in its place he found a single crystal flower. I wish I had more for you, but that is all we could find- just two incomplete references, without any real sightings. Although Dabron Sashenstar is a well-known and loved hero, he has been known at times to embellish his tales somewhat. I fear for that reason, and because the first was just a children’s story, I have provided you with very little indeed. With all due regrets, I remain your humble servant.”
-Athol, scribe of Candlekeep, DR 1374
52
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(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 27 Jul 2018 22:12:38 |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 10:56:31
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As for adding another "elf society" in the already Elf-crowded Realms… I wouldn't do it. But that's just me. We already have way too many elven societies and sub-races, even the Shadar-kai in 5e, that originally was not game-designed to be an elven race.
Making elves ubiquitous and "common as cockroaches" (like Humans) will ruin the very uniqueness that makes elves elves.
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Edited by - moonbeast on 28 Jul 2018 11:03:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 16:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
As for adding another "elf society" in the already Elf-crowded Realms… I wouldn't do it. But that's just me. We already have way too many elven societies and sub-races, even the Shadar-kai in 5e, that originally was not game-designed to be an elven race.
Making elves ubiquitous and "common as cockroaches" (like Humans) will ruin the very uniqueness that makes elves elves.
This is why if I propose adding them elsewhere, do it such that it either replaces something somewhere else that's indicated as an elf OR helps flesh out a little documented elf group in a far flung area. For instance, the elves documented on the moon. I'm very interested in those not being standard elves somehow. If they're ghost elves or some other kind of fey, it works better for me, and the people of Toril simply look at some members... see pointed ears.. and say "elf".
Similarly, the story for the Poscadar elves of Anchorome is that they came from a land of snow down to Anchorome because they heard it would be a land of plenty. The Poscadari are tall like Snow Elves, and they are "bronze-skinned" wherease Snow Elves are described as "Light Brown or Tan" skinned. Theoretically, this could be the same skin tone, but I get a picture of a little darker with "bronze-skinned". This could just be tanning (most likely) OR it might represent the blessing of a different deity (maybe these elves turned their back on Tarsellis to instead take up worship of Fenmarel Mestarine… both have very similar ethos, and even storylines, as both got involved with Lolth and are outsiders). So, perhaps Fenmarel led some Snow Elves south and they became the Poscadari (and maybe the Poscadari were led by or included some Lythari as well). The story can further fit the concept that there are snow elves above the Spine of the World and the High Ice of Anauroch, because there may have been a point where these Snow Elves may have travelled a frozen ice bridge connecting northern Faerun to Anchorome (like the theoretical land bridge some have equated in our world connecting North America and Eastern Asia long ago).
From Dragon #155 when Snow Elves are introduced
Snow elves have light brown or tan skin, white or pale blond hair, and silver eyes.
From the 2e City of Gold
Poscadar Elves
The plateau north of the Pasocada River and Long Canyon is home to
the Poscadar Elves; a tall, bronze skinned tribe of demi-humans who lead a nomadic existence hunting bison and other great game across the grassy plains. Poscadar lore says the elves came from the north, generations ago, where they were first created by the gods in a land of perpetual ice and snow. A wise shaman led them south, where the sun shone warm in the summer, and the great wild herds assured health and plenty year round. Here they met humans, ancestors of the Azuposi who befriended them and traded grains for hides and meat from the elves. For all remembered generations, even to the present day, the Poscadari and the Azuposi have been at peace.
Also, since other documents indicate that the Poscadari elves can't speak to elven ambassadors of Evermeet, it makes sense that they may come from Snow Elven stock from Greyhawk that interloped, and thus they speak an entirely different dialect of "elvish" because the two cultures had never truly interacted. These Snow Elves and Poscadari elves may in fact be relatively recent arrivals to Toril , though it should be at least a millenia or two or thereabouts to have lasted several elven generations. Part of this timeline would also have to do with the Azuposi humans arriving from Kara-Tur as well.
Hmmm, and it might be interesting if these Poscadari elves came south from the spine of the world BEFORE the elven sundering. That would really show why they might have been totally separated from all other elves for so long that their languages have nothing in common. Unlike the Faerunian elves, these elves may have never have developed a strong magic tradition. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Jul 2018 17:43:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 20:35:54
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I, too, feel there are enough types of elves in the Realms, and I'm reluctant to include more flavors.
I recently respun the Leirans living on Selûne, too... It's always bugged me that worshippers of one goddess should live on the moon named for another. I'd prefer to ignore that lore altogether, but one of the web articles about the Spellplague explicitly mentioned the illusion on the moon.
So I decided to respin the entire thing:
So what I'm thinking of right now is that maybe the majority of Selûne is exactly as it appears from the ground... But there is a large region that matches the description from Realmspace, and it's in this area that the Leirans live.
The Leirans used to live elsewhere, perhaps in the Realms proper, perhaps somewhere else in Realmspace. Maybe they were even beyond Realmspace, an attempt by Leira to become a multispheric power. Wherever they were, things went south, in a major way. The Leirans had to flee, right flipping NOW, or face certain annihilation. Their most powerful casters got together and cast a massive spell that was meant to transport their entire home to a safe location.
Maybe they goofed, or maybe the spell was effected by a still-extant echo of the first Sundering -- but the end result was that they found themselves on Selûne.
So they had a new home and were safe... But seeing Toril hanging in the sky over their heads was rather unnerving, as was the terrain beyond their translocated sanctuary. And of course, there remained the fear -- the terror, even -- that the enemy (enemies) they fled from would find them. Assuming that Toril was their former homeland, and wanting to remain hidden from it, they immediately popped up the big illusion over their sanctuary, and hunkered down.
It's been generations, but that collective fear of the enemy has been passed down. The Leirans don't truly know whether or not they originated on Toril; they've lost that lore. Seeing it hanging in their sky, however, and knowing they fled from somewhere, has convinced them that Toril is their ancient homeland.
The big illusion described in Realmspace? It's not wrong, but not quite right -- the lakes and cities and other hospitable features are the illusion. If someone gets close enough to see the surface, the Leirans want to appear stronger and more populous than they really are, to discourage any invasion attempts. If someone isn't close enough, they see things as they really are -- also to discourage invasion. (Who'd be interested in lifeless rock?)
What was seen on Toril, during the Spellplague, was a temporary warping of the illusion. For a brief time, as magic was in flux, the illusion malfunctioned, showing the illusory civilization to Toril. As magic stabilized, the illusion faded back to its normal strength and operations.
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2022 : 20:51:06
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Ed Greenwood on Twitter stated both Snow (few months back) and Ghost Elves (just recently) are officially in Forgotten Realms setting (and Ghost Elves are hardly seen in Toril and don't have settlements, but some elves recognize what they are on sight I believe).
Figured it was very important and relevant lore and that it fit into the discussion here. |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1451 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2022 : 02:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Ed Greenwood on Twitter stated both Snow (few months back) and Ghost Elves (just recently) are officially in Forgotten Realms setting (and Ghost Elves are hardly seen in Toril and don't have settlements, but some elves recognize what they are on sight I believe).
Relevant tweets from Ed.
On snow elves:
quote:
Snow elves are called “snow elves” by non-elves, “Noroth” (cold-lovers) by other elves, and call themselves “Raetha” (Clear-Bright-Cold).
In the Realms, they’ve never been numerous, in part because of the harsh climate they live in, and in part because of strife with orcs (and even drow) whenever they venture too deeply into the fissures and caverns in the mountains they live on—and in. Raetha long ago mastered ice magic (arcane spells that can reshape ice, turn it into water and vice versa, use it as a weapon, and even “lock” other spells into it so that if a spelltrapped area of ice is shattered, the trapped magic is unleashed). It’s by use of ice magic that Raetha fashion castle-cities to guard the entrances to their cavern homes: watchposts, approach-trails (and slides) and fortress walls and platforms. This has given rise to the belief that snow elves live in cities of ice, but they don’t (because this has proven impractical; to prevent icemelt from sun, magic had to be used to create permanent fogs, to protect elaborate cities, whereas the fortresses they do build are smaller and can be protected against sunlight with smaller, more practical spells). Many Raetha abodes are caves that open out of mountainsides, that have permanent window-walls not of glass, but of spellguarded ice.
It’s very rare for Raetha to venture down into the warmer rest of the world; they find it intolerably hot and humid, and have little interest in what they see as crowded, chaotic, violent regions. So they have little contact with the wider world; the few Raetha who do are considered mad by some, but bold adventurers by others, and tend to return (if they survive to return at all) with new items, new substances, and new ideas that the Raetha study eagerly, and so benefit and change.
Largely through uninterrupted study and experimentation, Raetha have achieved superb mastery of magic, and usually defeat the drow they do encounter (one deadly thing they can do in battle is hurl bursts of water, and follow them with ice spells that turn the water that’s drenched a foe into clouds of ice spears and daggers that the casters can move, from afar—so they can readily pincushion foes.
Raetha hunt remorhaz for sport, accomplishment, and food (the “sport” part of it is that they only use magic when desperately hungry, otherwise taking down the beasts with hand weapons; they take pride in besting such mighty creatures in this manner). Most Raetha food is fungi they farm and harvest in their deeper caves, beetles that feed on that fungi that they also harvest and cook, and fruit grown in caverns touched by sunlight, through focal lenses of spellshaped ice.
A few Raetha cities wield “sunbeams” as defenses, that they can magically call up, then aim and use to cook enemies approaching from either inner cavern depths, or mountain slopes.
Original tweet: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1394870013887225856
On ghost elves:
quote:
A few adventuring bands of ghost elves have made forays into the Realms from the Ethereal Plane where they dwell, but ghost elves don’t have a presence in Toril in the form of settlements, a country, or being recognized as a race. Some elder elves will know them on sight.
Original tweet:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1479270248574500865
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1479270250000621572 |
Edited by - questing gm on 09 Jan 2022 02:10:36 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2022 : 09:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
We already have way too many elven societies and sub-races, even the Shadar-kai in 5e, that originally was not game-designed to be an elven race.
As quality of editing deteriorates the age of cheap sapphires looms ever closer. 
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For instance, the elves documented on the moon. I'm very interested in those not being standard elves somehow. If they're ghost elves or some other kind of fey, it works better for me,
I don't see why it's necessary.
Not "mainstream" elves, sure. Otherwise their fear of the people from Toril in general clashes with the whole Great-Elven-Brotherhood-and-Imaginary-Hivemind thing.
This allows two solutions:
1. The elves from Toril are an exception. The moon-elves dislike the rest exactly because the elves from Toril blame their decline on everyone else they deign to notice at all.
The problem: such an exception originally didn't exist. It's acceptable to pass as "broad strokes" in that it's not very obvious as they don't buzz around all that much, nor declare their travels to anyone else.
The other problem: they don't explicitly have any issues with anyone not from Toril, rather than making an exception just for their "enlightened" neighbors. And the 'jamming crowd is pretty rough-and-tumble.
2. This shunning/paranoia started long before the obvious reason (Dragonbeam blasting a huge piece of their world off). Because they are heretical elves. After what happened to the dark elves and what happened in Yuir, it's quite understandable. Maybe a lot of them were followers of Yuir pantheon, refusing further assimilation. For that matter, the Avariel also avoid the rest of the crowd.
This would explain a lot. Perhaps eventually they relaxed, but then some refugees arrive (like Monondarks, once they "hastily departed in one of the skyships"). Then the Dragonbeam hits them.
Problem: they don't mind the spacefaring elves. Solution: the EIN is not Elven Inquisition out to investigate the exact righteousness of all the groundling elves. They just assume the local elves venerate obscure Seldarine or well-known Seldarine under obscure aliases - after all, many elves on other worlds do so. And won't ever question it without overwhelming evidence to the contrary. They don't even stay around for long. The moon-elves only need to nod, smile, cart the cargo and bid them farewell.
quote:
and the people of Toril simply look at some members... see pointed ears.. and say "elf".
The people of Toril don't get to report on specifically moon elves. That's the whole point.
But other than this, yes.
quote:
Similarly, the story for the Poscadar elves of Anchorome is that they came from a land of snow down to Anchorome because they heard it would be a land of plenty. The Poscadari are tall like Snow Elves, and they are "bronze-skinned" wherease Snow Elves are described as "Light Brown or Tan" skinned.
A. They could just get more tan than usual from more sunlight than usual.
B. They assimilated some small tribe of other elves. This would explain the movement:
1. A tribe of forest elves is scattered/displaced by some catastrophe (like their small forest burns or gets or eaten) and moves into snow elf territory.
2. The snow elves accept its remnants.
3. Now they have heard a lot about more fertile lands.
4. A few generations later, a bad year (and/or a charismatic leader) happens, and they go for it.
C. Of course, the simplest answer is: obviously, they interbreed with the Azuposi little by little, ever since their arrival. Those are friendly neighbors, after all, and the Poscadari aren't full of their superiority like the "mainstream" elves. This may be sufficient for extra tan (and more curves). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2022 : 23:08:08
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Well, its been 4 years since I wrote that, so I've cemented a few ideas in my head more of what I personally would want.
On that idea of the "elves on the moon" being "ghost elves"
I've actually veered from that a little.... as in I have a specific group that I'd like to be there, and ghost elves MIGHT be there TOO. Since the "elves" and "humans" that are there act extremely odd, I'd rather that they are some group of the "ellefolk" that escaped the powerful shadow being known as Gwydion PRIOR TO more ellefolk escaped to Ravenloft (those ellefolk becoming the Arak or "shadow elves" of Ravenloft). I do this because the most elven looking of them is extremely focused on art, music, etc... in a very focused way that absolutely fits how the people of the moon are described. There's also 8 other "subraces" of these "ellefolk", and they're all very different.... but their story can work well with the moon. I won't go into that much more here, because I have some other stuff to do right now. I've already posted some on it in a lot of other threads.
Now that being said, the moon is BIG, ghost elves going there as a hideaway makes sense to me. Darklings being there makes sense to me. Elves from Nimbral being there makes sense to me.
On what you say about the Poscadari, all I can say is, "yes, I agree" as I had considered all of those options (and even in that order).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ghost elves?
