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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 10:23:10
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In the olden days of high Mith-Drannor, where the beauty of the city was at its highest, when the Srinshee was the Grandest of all mages, and lvl 10 spells was a dayly sight, and the pease and harmony was the center of the realm...
How long did it take to reseach a lvl 10 spell?
10 tendays, 6 month or even longer???
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 11:08:11
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| The Empire of Netherese fell in -339 D. R., Myth Drannor was founded in 261 D. R. with the raising of the mythal, so there were never any lvl 10 spells researched in Myth Drannor as it is not possible to do so after Mystra's decree. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 11:40:17
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| ok... my bad then... My history is off. Well then before Myth-Drannor then... how long did it take??? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 15:14:04
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Hmm... It all depends.
First edition, spell research took X+1 weeks of study (where X is the level of the spell) and cost 200 gp per week. So a 10th level spell would take 11 weeks and cost 2200 gold.
Second Edition, it takes 2X weeks to research a spell and cost between 100-1000 gp per level. A 10th level spell would take 20 weeks and probably cost the full 10,000 gold.
Third edition, it would be an Epic spell (see here) and there are many different factors involved. It costs 9,000 gp times the Spellcraft DC to cast it and takes X days to research (X being the cost divided by 50,000 rounded up). An epic spell like Karsus' Avatar would have a Spellcraft DC of probably 121 (21 for Transform seed, +100 for changing into deity), making the cost 1,089,000 gp and 22 days. Of course, then you have to actually MAKE the Spellcast check in order to cast it.
Ultimately, though, it comes down to whether Mystra lifts the ban for you. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 15:16:47
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That's splitting hairs, AV. The mythal might not have been raised until after Netheril's fall, but the city existed long before. Plus, that mythal is explicitly explained as a 10th level spell. Elves continue to be able to cast 10th level magic after Netheril's fall.
The answer to the OP's question is: it varies. If you want to go by the the 2e PHB, then the answer is a minimum of 20 weeks (2 weeks/spell level), plus an extra week for each time they fail their Chance to Learn Spell roll.
However, glancing through the sources on Netheril and Cormanthor reveals that it usually isn't that easy. Karsus spent a century researching 12th level magic, and over a decade researching Karsus' Avatar in particular. Mythanthor spent centuries trying to convert high magic rituals into 10th level spells. Of course, he was trying to replicate a ritual of myriad and so had bitten off a lot, but still. One of the smartest people on the planet and it took centuries.
So the answer is however you the DM want it to take. If it were me, I'd only follow the 2 weeks per rule up to level 9, and then make it take a LOT longer. Years at least and more likely decades, unless they can find a scroll with the spell, or get some tutoring from someone who already knows. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 16:52:30
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| I agree with Hoondatha. I know that 3E's epic spells does put a much shorter timeframe on it, but that's a failing of the 3E magic system, in my opinion. Seriously, does it really makes sense that with less than a month of work, someone could ascend to godhood? With that kind of rule in place, powerful spellslingers should be replacing deities on pretty much a daily basis. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 18:15:52
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| Actually, since the Spellcraft check is 121, that means it's probably not even safe to try until you have a Skill with a +110 modifier (at least). Taking into account stat bonuses, ranks, magic items and feats, the highest Spellcraft modifier you can get (if you start as a Wizard with Int 18 at first level) is +89. Of course, there's prestige classes and such that could modify this. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 18:24:23
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Well the story behind my question is this. My char. have through and old scroll and and spell leaned to bypass mystras ban. I know its not possible! (take it up with my DM) and so I naturaly have started designing a lvl 10 protection spell much like The Srinshee's Spellshift
And so im on loose ground here, not knowing how long time it will take me. Im guessing about half a year! But as my thoughs is that for them it did not take centuries to create a lvl 10 spell, but lvl 11 or 12 might take many years!
So again what would seem plausible to you fellow scribes??? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 18:25:04
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| So it takes you years to get to the level you could research it, but it still takes only a month or two to research the spell itself? Still no good. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 18:30:03
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| Well as I said I dont know how much time it will take. But my first guess was about 25 weeks. But im interested in more Canon info or even more plausible information about the matter. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 18:47:30
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Gah, that's twice I've written my posts too slowly and someone posted above me. My post was responding to Ashe's comment about 3e skill checks, not your backstory.
Personally, if I was the DM, even with help it would take your character years or decades, since you're essentially researching in the dark. You don't have any tradition of 10+ level spells to fall back on, the way the elves or the Netherese or Imaskari did, so you're having to essentially re-invent the wheel.
On the other hand, that's partly because 10th level magic is power I don't want in the hands of any of my players. Your DM obviously feels different. So you're going to have to work it out with him. But if you're looking for canon references, the time references start at a decade and go (way) up from there. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 00:41:14
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Well how can the power difference be so great between lvl 9 and 10. To me it would seem that when it takes me ๓ne week per spell lvl from 1-9 then jumping to a decade seems a little much on just one lvl. But if it realy how long it took. I know it took Karsus more than 10 years to create his Avatar spell, but im not trying to take away any gods power. Just a replica of The Srinshees Spellshift
And even thou it is a very powerful spell, a decade seem a bit much!
Please keep comenting! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 01:09:13
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| It's not that. The idea was in 2nd Edition, how do you 'top' Wish, which is a 9th level spell. Any spell that is 10th level has to be an improvement on a spell that lets you do just about anything. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 02:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
It's not that. The idea was in 2nd Edition, how do you 'top' Wish, which is a 9th level spell. Any spell that is 10th level has to be an improvement on a spell that lets you do just about anything.
Indeed. Wish allows you to literally alter reality. Where do you go from there? It's like asking a mountain climber what he's going to do after climbing Mount Everest, or asking an athlete what they're going to do after winning several gold medals at the Olympics. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 09:18:35
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I dont qiute see it that way. Yes wish can do some awesome things, but how come if that's the "most" powerful spell. How come they didnt use that for all their above 9th lvl spell effects? I mean that if wish is altering reality, then wish could chop the top of a mountain and make it float. Why borther to research Proctive's Move Mountain? Why create The Srinshee's Spellshift or any of the other spell of lvl 10-12. My case is this: Wish is not that powerful a spell. Were it that, nobody would have borthered spending decades on something they could already achieve with a lover lvl spell...
IMO at least! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 09 Aug 2009 09:22:03 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 09:55:33
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Originally you could go beyond wish and develop even mightier spells. But that was deliberately cut by Mystra. There may be need to develop spells of higher level, but with "normal human weave based magic" is simply just not possible any more, so a caster has to work with the stuff provided to him.
So "wish" has to do for creating a floating enclave because "Proctive's Move Mountain" is no longer an option. Or you have to switch to something (completely?) different like elven high magic.
Btw.: Even Srinshee's Spell Shift is now a lvl 9 spell. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 09 Aug 2009 09:59:38 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 12:34:44
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Well then, amagine that we were in the year -500 DR how long time did it take at that time to create a lvl 10 spell. The question is not so much if it is possible, cause it is is for me in our game, but just how long time im gonna need to create it!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 15:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well then, amagine that we were in the year -500 DR how long time did it take at that time to create a lvl 10 spell. The question is not so much if it is possible, cause it is is for me in our game, but just how long time im gonna need to create it!
Well, I think we've covered that one. It depends on what ruleset you're using, and whether your DM goes more for rules than for flavor. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 19:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Alas, the only 'canon' material we have is http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/returnofshade" target="_blank">SKR's article on the Return of Shade, and that only says that Karsus spent 'years' developing Karsus' Avatar.
In other words, Nicolai, you're SoL  .
And lets not forget that the components for that spell were fairly bonkers - An entire set of adventures right there!
'Secrets of the Magister' discusses 10th level spells under the 'Forbidden spells' section. It states that the 'Ban' was misinformation by Mystra. It would seem that although creating new 10th level spells is probably very difficult ( and time consuming, as has been pointed out,) it is possible for mortal casters to use any 10th level spell they find - but there is a sizeable list of caveats with that, including automatic casting failure the first time it is attempted. This, I imagine, is rather a big drawback considering the expense in both time, physical danger and cost that would be needed just to get the right components together for a single attempt.
It also states that any attempt to cast a 10th level or higher would automatically attract the attention of both Mystra and Azuth, and that sort of heat could really cramp your style. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 19:07:44
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| Now this sounds very interesting. Sadly, "Secrets of the Magister" is no longer available for sale, so one has to look for a used one. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 19:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Now this sounds very interesting. Sadly, "Secrets of the Magister" is no longer available for sale, so one has to look for a used one.
It's a great sourcebook, pure Realms goodness from Ed himself. I just finished rereading it a few minutes ago. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 20:05:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Now this sounds very interesting. Sadly, "Secrets of the Magister" is no longer available for sale, so one has to look for a used one.
Wooly Rupert has the dark of it alright. 'Secrets of the Magister' is a very fine book. It's one of my top five in fact. Ed at his best, in my opinion. It turns up on eBay quite often and can usually be picked up quite cheaply. Definately worth hunting down. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 22:01:47
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| Yeah, casting 10th level magic using the SotM system is pretty well defined as a "Hail Mystra" pass. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 22:14:36
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First of all What does SoL mean?
Seccond, are you saying that mystra at the casting of a lvl 10 spell might approve it if he finds it well intended or praktical?? I can see it is no easy question ive asked here... Just wanted my DM to have the right set of info on the matter, so he didnt just put some crazy high or crazy low time! Maybe it a question for the All Knowing Ed??? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 22:44:17
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First, SoL is **** Out of Luck.
Second, here are the pertinent quotes from SotM:
"[Mystra] did this [stripping the ability to use 10th level spells] by altering their enchantments to make them incomprehensible to the Netherese alive at the time (in other words, all of the recorded incantations could no longer "take hold" of the Weave at all, and hence the spells simply would not work). Mystra also altered a few of the symbols and glyphs of these incantations to make them injurious to the minds of beings attempting to memorize them or read and tinker with them.
...
... It is also possible for mortal spellcasters alive today to use any written (ie: on a spell scroll) 10th level magic they may find, with the following warnings:
* Attempts will always fail the first time
* All castings will be failures if the caster has less than 18 Intelligence and 16 Wisdom, and is less than 20th level.
* All castings result in unintended wild magic results if the caster doesn't have the assistance of a second spellcaster (18 Int, 18th level) as an anchor.
* All casting attempts are very likely (85% chance) to result in a loss of 1 experience level on the part of all casters involved, and will always cause the loss of 2d6 hit points and 1d4 other memorized spells
* All casting attempts attract the attention of both Azuth and Mystra. If they deem the casting to be for purely personal ends, or to have the death or destruction of a rival mage or magical items as their primary goal, or to be in support of any tyranny or oppressive authority, they will cause the end result to be feeblemindedness of all the casters and the instance disappearance of the written spell.
Like we said, not exactly friendly terms. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 01:06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Seccond, are you saying that mystra at the casting of a lvl 10 spell might approve it if he finds it well intended or praktical??
Uh, Mystra is a goddess. Female. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 14:32:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
* All castings will be failures if the caster has less than 18 Intelligence and 16 Wisdom, and is less than 20th level.
* All castings result in unintended wild magic results if the caster doesn't have the assistance of a second spellcaster (18 Int, 18th level) as an anchor.
It should be noted that the Ability and Level requirements are based on 2nd edition rules as well, before increasing an ability score was easily done. In 2E, the only permanent methods to increase your ability scores was Wish spells or Tomes of XXXXX. For 3E and beyond, I'd probably set the ability scores at 22 Int/18 Wis for the first and 20 Int for the second and NOT include any bonuses from magic items like Headbands of Intellect. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 17:33:23
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| That sounds interesting... im onna get that to my DM. So it im just hoping that im gonna get aproved by Mystra! |
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Researching spells
