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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 22:29:29
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| The next logical question being "How does this effect Candlekeep?" |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 23:15:11
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| Indeed. And: When will we see the next Candlekeep Compendium? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 06 Aug 2009 23:18:49 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 00:09:43
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My two concerns are:
"Please note that this Fan Site Policy does not allow you to publish, distribute or sell your own free-to-use games, modules or applications for any of Wizards' brands including, but not limited to, Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering. If you want to engage in any of these activities related to Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition, such use is subject to the Game System License http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome. For questions concerning digital rights for all other Wizards brands, please visit www.wizards.com/customerservice."
and
"* Inaccurate, Obscene or Libelous Statements Prohibited. Wizards welcomes and encourages honest discussion and opinions about all Wizards products on Fan Sites. However, we cannot allow Wizards Materials be used on any Fan Site that promotes sexually explicit materials, violence, discrimination or illegal activities, or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents. We know you'll keep it clean. We Invite You to Ask Wizards."
The first because it sounds to me that a lot of what we write for the Compendium could be effected. The second passage because we'd really have to crack down on some comments that some of us post. I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of these comments either.
Plus, it doesn't say anything about 3e material, etc. Makes me wonder if we can mix and match? The GSL really doesn't allow that if you use mechanics. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 07 Aug 2009 00:42:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 00:49:47
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quote:
Please note that this Fan Site Policy does not allow you to publish, distribute or sell your own free-to-use games, modules or applications for any of Wizards' brands including, but not limited to, Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering.
This, to me, sounds like it's pretty much shutting down the Compendium. I'm not sure, though, since we don't actually do anything rules-related; we have a lorebook, not a game, module, or application.
quote:
Inaccurate, Obscene or Libelous Statements Prohibited. Wizards welcomes and encourages honest discussion and opinions about all Wizards products on Fan Sites. However, we cannot allow Wizards Materials be used on any Fan Site that promotes sexually explicit materials, violence, discrimination or illegal activities, or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents. We know you'll keep it clean.
I don't think this affects us, actually. Again, we're not actually using the Fan Site Kit. A quick look at the kit shows just cover artwork and logos. My assumption is that we could badmouth them all day long as long as we don't use those logos, but if we do, we are then bound to be polite. Part of the reason I'm assuming this is because WotC is based in the US, and telling us we can't make disparaging statements is a violation of our First Amendment rights. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 01:28:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Please note that this Fan Site Policy does not allow you to publish, distribute or sell your own free-to-use games, modules or applications for any of Wizards' brands including, but not limited to, Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering.
This, to me, sounds like it's pretty much shutting down the Compendium. I'm not sure, though, since we don't actually do anything rules-related; we have a lorebook, not a game, module, or application.
Possibly. I suppose this would really come down to just how Wizards defines the terms "games" and "modules." Do their definitions include only products that feature statistical/rules info? Or practically everything that draws subject material from any of their IP? Because, regardless of whether the Compendiums feature rules or not, they're being used as "gaming supplements" for the most part. And the Wizards definition for "games" might include any fan-made sources that fall into this category.
quote:
I don't think this affects us, actually. Again, we're not actually using the Fan Site Kit. A quick look at the kit shows just cover artwork and logos. My assumption is that we could badmouth them all day long as long as we don't use those logos, but if we do, we are then bound to be polite. Part of the reason I'm assuming this is because WotC is based in the US, and telling us we can't make disparaging statements is a violation of our First Amendment rights.
Agreed. And with the update to Candlekeep 2, we could probably make the effort to further divorce any lingering connections Candlekeep may have to this kind of stuff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 01:32:34
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quote:
Trade Dress and Advertising Elements. Although imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, you may not imitate Wizards' logos, trade dress, or other elements of Wizards product packaging and website. Such imitation could result in confusion for others about a Fan Sites' affiliation with or sponsor ship by Wizards.
I believe this includes the page backgrounds that were used in the 3rd Edition books. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 06:51:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1228916
Thanks Brian. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 12:26:25
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quote:
Inaccurate, Obscene or Libelous Statements Prohibited. Wizards welcomes and encourages honest discussion and opinions about all Wizards products on Fan Sites. However, we cannot allow Wizards Materials be used on any Fan Site that promotes sexually explicit materials, violence, discrimination or illegal activities, or makes disparaging, libelous or dishonest statements about Wizards and/or its products, employees and agents. We know you'll keep it clean.
I agree with Wooly, this shouldn't stop us from bad mouthing the Wiz, especially if it relates to the Realms. Afterall, constructive criticism should only do them good and this site practically offers them free marketing research and advertising.
Candlekeep is the only place I know that is filled with people who truely cherish the Realms and it's lore. Wizards, if they are smart, should be taking advise and wisdom from this site. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 14:21:34
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That's more of a license then a policy. But anyway..
Don't agree to it, don't click accept. Just use the OGL, and say that the lore we create is 'fan fiction'. The only real question is if we can do that without being sued, something that WoTC still haven't answered (and, in my view, WoTC are acting under a policy of deliberate ambiguity)
So basically, nothings changed. Woo. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 14:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
That's more of a license then a policy. But anyway..
Exactly this was my first thought, too. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 15:34:11
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I read this twice and don´t understand it yet. When they say that the Fan Site Policy don´t allow to publish free-to-use D&D stuff, they are being serious?
To me, this sounds as they don´t want any DM, player, or D&D savvy person to create nothing related to D&D. Or, to be more specific, they are cutting the opportunities to appear another Brian James, by example. A fan that create a stuff so wonderfull for the fans and to the fans that became an oficial product. (Not to mention the CK) 
IMO, if they´re really doing this, they are doing a real bad move. The fan base always support, but always create his ideas, his house rules, and (with the "sharing feeling" so characteristic to D&D gamers), publish and spread his creations to all the world.
Cut this out is abominable, to me. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 17:30:02
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| I think that those of us attending GenCon should ask these questions of the WotC staffers when we can. I'd hate to see Candlekeep brought down. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 18:38:22
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The agreement looked to me to be that if you want to be recognized as an official D&D fansite, then you need to follow their fansite policy. It seems to leave ambiguous the status and legality of unrecognized, unofficial fansites (which I think that Candlekeep is more of). Wow, since the first release of the GSL, the WotC lawyer team seems to perfected their "write ambiguous licenses" skill. Bleh.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 18:54:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
That's more of a license then a policy. But anyway..
Don't agree to it, don't click accept. Just use the OGL, and say that the lore we create is 'fan fiction'. The only real question is if we can do that without being sued, something that WoTC still haven't answered (and, in my view, WoTC are acting under a policy of deliberate ambiguity)
So basically, nothings changed. Woo.
However, if people want to create for 4e they can't use the OGL because 4e has to use the GSL. And the GSL says you can't use websites to host 4e material.
If anything this fan license confuses the issue even more now. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 22:25:39
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I think its a one or the other type of thing. Stay 3e or go 4e, you cant have it both ways. That is in keeping in what I have seen from Wizards in the past 2 years.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2009 : 23:58:52
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You know, the GSL doesn't allow you to write FR adventures or fluff anyway; it just covers setting-neutral mechanics AFAIK.
Back on topic: the growing consensus at ENWorld (thread here) is that, if you don't use the "kit" and don't accept the terms of the license, you shouldn't be bound by it. Essentially, the Compendium is in the same situation it was before -- try to stick to fair use and hope WotC doesn't come after you (this would seem to be the case with the GSL/fansite policy anyway, hence the relevance of my first point). The alternative would be for Alaundo to try to get a separate agreement with WotC, but who knows if they'd allow anything but 4e rules or 4e FR.
Anyway, I hope the Compendium comes back! |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 04:31:45
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| let's just keep the 'keep in perpetual 3e and make Compendiums til the fat lady sings |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 04:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
let's just keep the 'keep in perpetual 3e and make Compendiums til the fat lady sings
No, that's not a policy Candlekeep will ever adopt so long as I'm a Moderator here. I'd like Candlekeep to remain edition-neutral, continuing its long tradition of being an FR site where ANY and ALL aspects of the published Realms can be discussed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 05:53:51
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| And as much as I hate 4E and the Shattered Realms, I can't support us going any kind of edition-specific, either. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 07:50:15
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| Here is an analysis of the so called Fan Site "Policy". |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 08:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
let's just keep the 'keep in perpetual 3e and make Compendiums til the fat lady sings
And you forget that there are those of us, albeit few, that dislike 3ed. as much as 4ed. Any proclamation on being specifically 3ed. and I might as well pack my bags. As long as we keep ourselves edition-free things will be a lot more peaceful around here.
I wonder what effect this policy would have on those whose ideas don't follow the canon at all. I probably wont participate any more to the Compendium, but I have a tendency to sporadically cough up some Realms-based ideas here at the 'Keep.
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 13:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Here is an analysis of the so called Fan Site "Policy".
Thanks for the link. I found it very informative.
I agree with Sage and Wooly, lets keep Candlekeep Edition Neutral. So all who love the realms have a place to discuss the realms. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 16:37:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Here is an analysis of the so called Fan Site "Policy".
That is informative. I was thinking along the same lines, but that guy put it all together much better.
And he raises some good points. It's like the original GSL: for getting a little official stuff from WotC, you sign away a lot of your rights, with no guarantee that WotC will uphold their end of the deal.
It's really rather scary to comtemplate the kind of corporate thinking that apparently generated this thing. It appears to be worded in such a manner so as to deceive people into signing up, and thus silence any negative commentary they may have had.
Once upon a time, I had great respect for WotC. With some of the things they've done since 3E was inflicted on us (and yes, I mean 3, not 4), I find it harder and harder to regard them in anything other than a negative light. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Aug 2009 16:39:37 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 23:46:29
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After reading the Enworld thread and the paizo thread, Candlekeep would have to sign the 4e GSL to use this "policy". With all that entails. So no posting a stat block for Elminster, Drizzt, or any of the old Iconics in 4E, because Wizards could go and post any later on DDI.
Plus using the Forgotten Realms Logo could prove to be a problem now. Scribes would have to stop calling the 4E Realms "Shattered", or "Sellplagued" because to would be negative towards WOTC and their products, because the site would or could possibly have an "Official WOTC Logo". Cant go and confuse the new players.
Candlekeep should just stay EDITION NEUTRAL and not sign it. DONT DO IT BIG AL!!!!!! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2009 : 23:47:43
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| Sorry, I hit Quote instead of Edit. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 08 Aug 2009 23:54:05 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 15:25:55
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| This is too vague for my knowledge of english, why doesn't someone ask the customer service or the designers a clear, yes or no, question about the Compendium. I can ask, no prob? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2009 : 11:29:56
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| Now that the esteemed Wizards of the Coast have released their fan site policy does this make the position of Candlekeep Compendium any clearer? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2009 : 13:00:23
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That's something we'll all have to discuss once Alaundo returns to Candlekeep.
As it stands now, though, the Fan Site policy still leaves it very vague. We may simply have to contact Wizards directly and ask for their perspective on the matter.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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WotC Fan Site Policy released
