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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 17:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I think part of the problem, Wooly, lies with your position as Moderator and thus an official representative of Candlekeep.com. Even if the "Shattered Realms" opinion is only your own as an individual, having it oft repeated by Wooly the Moderator gives the comment more weight than it otherwise would.
However, Wooly the Moderator has also stated, more than once, that this site is edition-neutral.
Why is it that some choose to perceive an opinion as a statement of policy, and totally ignore statements of policy? To me, that's more of an issue that the status of a person with an opinion.
I also think that people being disrespectful and dismissive of the opinions of others is more of an issue that what a mod's personal opinion is.
And I think that deliberate threadjacking of threads with opposing viewpoints is more of an issue that what a mod's personal opinion is.
I have never used my position as a mod to curtail discussions for or against any edition of the Realms, so long as those discussions adhered to the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct. When things start getting ugly, I don't care who started it -- it gets stopped.
If anyone feels that I have, by stating an opinion, crossed some line, then I invite them to discuss it with me by PM, or to contact Big Al.
Now, perhaps we can get back onto the original topic of this scroll? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 20:49:59
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Too often people generalize about 'change' as if the various things labelled by that word are a single uniform phenomenon. Here, except at the most superficial level, dynamic processes occurring within a fictional world (in fact, a multiverse) are a quite different thing from a new version of a world engineered from without, by people with different philosophies and purposes from the man who created it. When, aside from the odd vacuous marketing claim that everyone would like the new Realms, even those people have been fairly explicit that the new setting is a different animal, to claim an equation of Realms-2008 and the Forgotten Realms we knew before then is to stray into pure fantasy. To equate a dislike of Realms-2008 with a dislike of the Realms would be daft even if one accepted that they were different versions of the same thing, which in my view they're not.
My experience is that value-laden labels like 'T$R' and 'Forgettable Realms' do more harm than good, so I avoid them. I don't think 'Shattered Realms' is quite in that category, but while I wouldn't use it myself, I also see no point in asking Wooly not to use it if he feels that way. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2009 : 23:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Too often people generalize about 'change' as if the various things labelled by that word are a single uniform phenomenon. Here, except at the most superficial level, dynamic processes occurring within a fictional world (in fact, a multiverse) are a quite different thing from a new version of a world engineered from without, by people with different philosophies and purposes from the man who created it. <snip> To equate a dislike of Realms-2008 with a dislike of the Realms would be daft even if one accepted that they were different versions of the same thing, which in my view they're not.
Thank you, Faraer, for precisely hitting what my (and, I believe, Wooly's) big problem with the Brave New Realms is. The change that occurred with 4E was just too much all at once, and all but erased the world that I fell in love with over 20 years ago. The 2E change and the Time of Troubles was fine by me, even if I have, in my own campaign, undone half of the deity changes that occurred then. My biggest problem with the changes that happened this time around isn't even the major NPC deaths (those are minor and can be easily ignored by DMs who don't like them), but is instead the century-plus time jump. Now, we have a Realms in which all of our source material from three and a half editions is suddenly obsolete, because the lore is all over a hundred years old... and to make matters worse, there is no new lore being produced unless you subscribe to DnDi and read the novels... neither of which will do you any good if you don't buy into the Spellplague in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
My experience is that value-laden labels like 'T$R' and 'Forgettable Realms' do more harm than good, so I avoid them. I don't think 'Shattered Realms' is quite in that category, but while I wouldn't use it myself, I also see no point in asking Wooly not to use it if he feels that way.
I actually like the term 'Forgettable Realms' for the post-Sellplague world... but I prefer 'Misbegotten Realms' or 'Brave New Realms' (read A Brave New World by Aldous Huxley for that reference). That being said, not the entire 4E Realms is 'Forgettable' or 'Misbegotten'; Cormyr, Waterdeep, Netheril, and Laerakond are all interesting and fun places to play in... with the 3.5 ruleset or Pathfinder Beta. I'm still learning to like 4E, but it doesn't feel like the right game system for a fantasy RPG for me. I should have spent my money on Star Wars Saga Edition first, but the strangely-sized rulebooks steered me away.  Instead, I pre-ordered 4E Core sight unseen, and now have a mint-condition set of rulebooks on my shelf that I very rarely touch.  I'll have to pull them soon to make way for Pathfinder accessories. To echo the comments of others, I'd much rather play in a world and game system created by people who have asked me what I want, rather than one created by people who have told me what I want. When did I suddenly not know what I want? 
To return this scroll to topic, as I've already said previously, I like Laerakond (I refuse to call it "Returned Abeir") and I plan to use it in my Realms, locating it south of Evermeet. I also like the return of Netheril / demise of Anauroch, and I'll be having the desert disappear on a magically-accelerated timeline. I'm thinking about speeding up the reclamation of the High Moor as well, but I need to work up an alternate in-story scenario for that; Khelben is too important a figure in my current campaign for him to die, regardless of how noble and fitting an end it was (except for the fact that all the gods are the same, so getting to join the Seldarine is no big deal, because they're all just aspects of the human gods anyway... just another reason I'm not using 4E or the Spellplague). 
Edit:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Great change has always been part of the Realms. No reason to start calling it something different just because we're getting more of the same (heavy handed and head-scratchingly puzzling as some of those changes were).
It's not about change -- it's about the reasoning behind the changes, and the end result of those changes.
Reasoning?   There was reasoning involved? Do you have proof of this? If so, I demand to see it! Every last scrap! If there is sufficient evidence, I will have no choice but to accept what was done to our world. 
[/edit]
Anyway, I think I've repeated myself from an earlier post for most of this, so I'll shut up now. That's what I like and don't like about the Brave New Realms (TM); one Realms fan's opinion.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 09 Aug 2009 23:28:05 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 03:05:02
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Yes, keep on insulting the Authors, and Designers that are working on and in the Forgotten Realms. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 03:18:30
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I think if a Candlekeep moderator throws out a justification for why the Realms ought to be called something it's not, it's fair game.
Some of the strongest opinions about the Realms come from site moderators. I know this firsthand. I get it.
But for all that, a moderator can't declare their side and answer criticism and have their say, then announce there's to be no more talk on the subject, just as they can't insinuate some fairly negative things about other scribes, then declare the discussion is closed.
That's out of line, even for a privately run website.
[Edit] And for the record the thread-jacking occurred, Wooly, when you posted your justification for why you coined that hideous phrase of yours. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 10 Aug 2009 08:50:44 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 04:47:42
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Miscellany, the changes you mentioned occurred deep in the history of the Realms universe. They are about as helpful as bringing up the split of Pangaea as evidence of great changes in the real world. Sure, it happened, but it's irrelevant in any human sense.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with calling it the Shattered Realms. Especially if it'll annoy fans of it. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 05:52:23
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Please see this http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12783 before posting. It is a declaration From The Sage.
Thank you and have a nice day. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 07:14:57
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I'll take the rest of this to PM, but I'm going to address a single point:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
But for all that, a moderator can't declare their side and answer criticism and have their say, then announce there's to be no more talk on the subject, just as they can't insinuate some fairly negative things about other scribes, then declare the discussion is closed.
I did not declare the topic closed. I asked for a return to the original topic of the thread. Nowhere in my post was it stated or implied that the discussion betwixt you and I was closed and/or a forbidden topic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 08:50:02
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Kuje,
I stand by what I wrote. I think it's appropriate and adds perspective to my point about moderators.
However if you want your name out of my last post, I'll edit it out. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 08:59:02
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Removed my posts since the offending poster edited his post.
That said, it isn't appropriate to name people who aren't mods any more and it's rude to discuss people who have nothing to do with this topic or who have never even visited this site, or other sites.
Now, I'm going back to lurking cause I don't want to be involved in the drama this poster always loves getting me involved in. So, I'm done with this topic and I shouldn't have been involved in this topic in the first place. Especially since I haven't been a mod on 'Keep in almost three years and I hadn't written one comment in this thread! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 10 Aug 2009 09:14:43 |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2009 : 11:05:12
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Greetings.
While closely following the interesting discussions on this site for a long time, now, I rarely find the need to write something myself, since I'm more of the "if it adds nothing to the debate, don't write it" -type of person (meaning that I usually agree with the views of other posters).
But I think that this is one of those rare occasions when I require to get something out of my system, and before I begin, I wish to note that this is simply my opinion, not an universal truth being declared. I may very well be wrong, and I am not out to offend anyone of a different view. With that written, I do think that some of you may actually agree with what I have to say:
It really isn't about offending the designers of the 4th edition.
It is not about mocking those that enjoy the new set of rules, the lore-changes, or both. We all have our differing views.
What it is about, is that for a great deal of time, now, we have shared a world with relatively consistent lore. As the editions came and went, changes occured. Some, perhaps to the better, others not so. For example, I am no fan of the Time of Troubles myself, even though that it was around that time I discovered the Realms. But those inconsistent changes had a minor effect upon the world as a whole (oddly enough). The changes wrought by the 4th edition, however, is another matter, and my point, the point of this entire post, is about the importance of consistency. For any campaign-world worth it's name, consistency is Alpha to Omega. Without consistency, you have no sensible fictional world whatsoever(or soup, if you would prefer). What you *do* have, is a bunch of lore snippets (ingredients), but nothing that connects them (no-one has put them together into a delicious soup). This results in inconsistency, and that renders the actions of any NPC or PC into a "snippet of lore", not events throughout an enfolding history (which is much of the point of roleplaying, I think).
For example, during my games, elements of the Sembian government actually feared that the PC Kaendros (also a sembian, and a "true" one at that) would march his four thousand veteran soldiers into the capitol (even though this wasn't the case), and rule Sembia himself, so they sought to get rid of him, through complex political manoevering, and finally, they succeeded, but that was their undoing, since another council member had manipulated them into doing this, in order to further his own ends.
Without a consistent history that connects that example with everything else that has occured under Toril's sun, it remains a fine history in it self, but that doesn't really add to the history of the Realms now, does it?
And that is what I'm really after: Some elements of the 4th edition are fine by themselves, but the way they are introduced, and the very nature of those 'elements' makes them inconsistent with previously established lore.
When introducing new things into a world as developed as the Forgotten Realms was, great care must be taken, both regarding the nature of 'the new thing', and how it is introduced, in order to not disturb what's already there. The opposite of this happened. And while watching interviews with the developers, and hearing that certain things "need to be nuked", it is hard not to become insulted, or to take the designers seriously, especially now, when we know what happened to our favourite setting.
I think I should wrap this monologue up now, and, once again, state my point of writing it:
Inconsistency is the ruin of any fictional setting. It is opposed to the Art, which is equal to the hard work of creating a wondrous, believable world, and showering it with details, that makes it come alive. Something that invalidates so many years of collected, mostly consistent lore, is frankly an outright abomination, a mockery.
I belive that this, with the unfortunate additions of really poor marketing decisions, the insolent ignorance towards those that really love(d) the setting and its rich details, is what has made many of us ...hesitant to buy into the 4th edition. I know I wouldn't purchase anything made by the Wizards of the Coast, ever again. Not after they have showed their true nature. Not artists, lovingly creating, but merchants, business-men. It is sad, really.
A final note, mostly to you that propagate the 4th edition, and may feel offended, by my words. As you may have read above, I am not out to mock you, or your beliefs, so please, take no offense. This is not a "rant". It is my point of view. My thoughts. But if you feel like posting your view, please be informative, tell us why you feel in a certain way, so that we can understand each other.
...And in order to stay on the topic of this scroll, ["...can you find anything...anything at all, that you actually like about it?"]I'll say that my view is that, there may be some things I like, but these minor bits and pieces are overshadowed by 'the whole', and I feel I cannot support it, in any way, by the matter of principle, so the answer is, unfortunately, "No".
//Amarel Derakanor |
Edited by - Amarel Derakanor on 10 Aug 2009 11:10:34 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 01:58:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Uzzy,
Where did the Sea of Fallen Stars come from? How many nations and beings perished in its coming?
How did the massive desert of Anourach come about? What of the great civilization that withered away as it advanced?
Was Evermeet always there? What were the consequences of its arrival?
From where came the Eladrin? Or Orcs? How often has the face of Faerūn changed by the hands of these two races alone?
How many pantheons have grown, stabilized, then collapsed over time in the Realms, with like-changes in the outer planes as a result?
There's no question that the Realms have changed on many levels before.
The difference (as I see it) is that it's never happened so completely and abruptly during the published era of the Realms.
Differentiate between that very small sliver of the timeline in which the majority of the published, playable Realms exists, versus the entire history of the setting. That is, take the meta-view.
Great change has always been part of the Realms. No reason to start calling it something different just because we're getting more of the same (heavy handed and head-scratchingly puzzling as some of those changes were).
A couple of points, here:
It's Anauroch -- not Anourach. And as it advanced, the only civilizations that "withered away" were the survivor states of Netheril. IMO Netheril herself would have perished regardless of whether the Phaerimm cast their spells or not.
And, sorry to be snarky, but the Eladrin came from... the 4E PHB! (I personally still use the elven subraces, as I play 3E/PF RPG)
As for the rest of your points... sure, civilizations have rose and perished during the tens of thousands of years of the recorded history, but never do I recall such Realmswide changes and destruction occuring (not even during ToT). We are speaking about change for change's sake here, and not even the designers are shy about it; the main goal for the 4E Realms were to erase the "burden of lore" and to make it an "entry-level" setting.
Now, I'm not against major changes, *if* they're logical and believable in the context and canon of the Realms. What I've read of the 4E Realms and the events of the Spellplague seems very rushed and poorly planned, and even the LFR guidelines advise you to forget about pre-Spellplague lore. It's as if they just hammered it all down during one meeting, and that was it. WHAM! A handful of FR fans have posed (in a polite tone) very good questions to the designers about these events (e.g. how come all Chosen of Mystra lost their powers, even if they practically held Divine Ranks that were separate from Mystra's power and existence), but it seems that all of the inconsistencies are now handwaved with "We retconned it, because we didn't like how 2E/3E approached this issue" (i.e. "It didn't even cross out minds, so now we have to claim that we just didn't want to waste space in the books to announce it was retconned."). Yet I don't think it's the designers' fault (I liked Rich's work for 3E FR) -- rather, it seems to be the new company policy and they also had a strict deadline to meet. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 07:04:05
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Asgetrion,
For someone who criticizes WotC hand waving things away, you seem to be doing a fair bit of it yourself. Consider Anauroch (thanks for the reminder on how to spell it; I'm sure I've gotten the name wrong before and will add it to my word processor's database). Massive region, filled with lakes, an inner sea, forests and arable land, full of living beings (not just humans, Asgetrion) that depended on it....gone, and not by Karsus poor choices, but by the Phaerimm's actions.
As for Eladrin: The term can be used interchangeably. We both know you're aware of elven history in the Realms. I think you are being snarky.
I already showed how such Realms-wide destruction has occurred in the past. When you consider what the Sundering alone did to the Realms....anyway the point is that massive change has occurred all over the Realms. It's happened in some cases abruptly, and often. Are the changes "consistent" with prior Realmslore? I think they are, it's just that they don't sit well with longtime fans who've had to sit through the ToT, region shaking events after that and now the Spellplague.
Many of the changes you talk about as being inconsistent are explained in the FR Campaign Guide. Do you own a copy? (Please don't read that as snarky; I'm curious if you do own a copy is all.)
I agree with you that WotC's decisions could be seen as rushed, but WotC did not in fact just knock out the post-Spellplague Realms on the fly because they had a deadline. I politely suggest you acquaint yourself with the history of how 4th Edition D&D and the post-Spellplague Realms came to be. The planning and work took a lot longer than that.
I also agree WotC tried in large part to create a disconnect between the mass of setting-information that existed so new fans could be drawn to it. It doesn't follow that this means all that came before is gone. It's interesting to see how the LFR guidelines are growing into their own trope that's now being misused. WotC's specific guidelines to adventure writers for a Living Campaign are not the same thing as a declaration that we're all supposed to forget what came before. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 11 Aug 2009 08:00:26 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 07:18:17
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| Right on. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2009 : 07:21:45
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Okay, this is the last time I'm saying this: get back on the original topic, or this scroll is getting locked. If you want to have discussions that do not pertain to the topic of this specific thread, either take those discussions to PM or find a more appropriate scroll for them.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ahwe Yahzhe
Acolyte
Iraq
36 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2009 : 00:46:46
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Here's what I like about the Spellplagued Realms:
- Laerakond
- High Imaskar
- Akanul
- Earthmotes
- Imperial Cormyr (but mainly due to that great update article in Dragon)
- Moonsea / Zhentil Keep (again, mainly due to update material in LFR module SPEC1-1)
Otherwise, the two books with their Readers-Digest-for-the-Visually-Impaired font size and margins, horrible maps, and copious white space were really useless. Okay, I got that part about the Spellplague jacking up Faerun for its lunch money, but from the lack of content in the two new books it sure looks like nothing much else happened since then. I mean, a hundred years have passed in the FR and that's all we get to replace 20 years-worth of published lore? Really???
And that's the main problem with all the things that I liked about the new Forgotten Realms. At the same time these cool new developments piqued my interest, I knew there was no promise to publish more information about them outside of the occasional DDI article or LFR module.
(It looks like there is some article support for Laerakond, at least. I'm hoping the new Mini-Campaign LFR modules (MINI1-1, MINI1-2) have some kind of background in them so I can add that to the DDI articles about Gontal and Tarmalune...)
(puts on wishing hat) If only WotC had changed the name of the campaign setting on those two books to something cool and flashy to bring in new players and support RPGA events. It would have been better to wish the Forgotten Realms a tearful goodbye, rather than to Spellplague it, flash it forward a hundred years, and then kick it to the curb in a bloody heap. Now we have to go visit it on life support in the rest home...(takes off wishing hat)
-Ahwe Yahzhe |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2009 : 08:43:29
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Something else I will add that I am grateful for...although admittedly it's like being glad that someone didn't remove my pickles from the burger I ordered after the patty was suddenly taken away by one of the cooks...
There are certain locales we encountered in such products as the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate series that I will be using, meaning that I can use such places as High Hedge, Nashkel, Beregost, Friendly Arm, Arvahn, Highcliff Castle, and Port Llast (among others) with impunity. One thing that will characterize all of these places (sayeth I) will be how much they haven't changed in the past 150+ years, campaign-specific changes I make notwithstanding.
I find it ironic that these places, probably not all of which were created by 'Realms scholars', have a 'Realmsy' feel to them where the new edition Realms do not. And I doubt there has been, or will be, any published information about them, thus anything I make (and possibly post (as fan material) on the 'Net) will be unlikely (at best) to conflict with official canon.
The 4th Edition game rules don't bother me a bit. Just a few tweaks here and there, and they are actually less cumbersome than 2nd or 3rd. I can easily adapt them one way or the other with little to no fuss - I can import things like spells and skills from previous editions with impunity. Spiritwrack, anyone?
It is the 4th Edition Realms that are the issue. The players in my latest campaign are 'Forgotten Realms' hardliners - meaning they are every bit as displeased with what has occurred as I am, and until I explained what I had in mind for the campaign, they couldn't fathom what I was thinking when I said I was going to run a campaign in the post-Spellplague era. Once I had told them that, in accordance with WotC's official policy of 'the PC's are the stars', the characters would be 'fixing what has happened', they all gave me predatory smiles and created characters with no further complaint.
They may not even succeed...in fact, I am encountering a problem I never had in previous editions, namely the need to have a powerful NPC as a patron and 'quest-giver' (in this case, an ancient, thoroughly corrupt old Vhaeraunite drow wizard and ex-priest of my own design). Previous editions gave me enough infrastructure and networks that I could dispense with meta-NPC's altogether...now, I find myself ironically dependent on one, even if he is a homebrewed soul. So much for the 'Points of Light' nonsense.
But even if the prime objective is never reached, the characters are going to be the ones who repair what has been done to the point where it will at least have the basic feeling of the Realms we all know and want back. |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 14 Aug 2009 08:44:43 |
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 08:33:34
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| Amarel Derakanor, I must thank you as you have mirrored my thoughts. I think and feel the same way. And yes, at this point, there is nothing i like about 4e FR. However, I do hope the problems I see will be either reversed or revised for the sake of consistancy. If not, I can only hope future material will make the 4e FR a place I would want to campaign in. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2009 : 13:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Something else I will add that I am grateful for...although admittedly it's like being glad that someone didn't remove my pickles from the burger I ordered after the patty was suddenly taken away by one of the cooks...
Who did I hear that from before? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 09:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
There are certain locales we encountered in such products as the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate series that I will be using, meaning that I can use such places as High Hedge, Nashkel, Beregost, Friendly Arm, Arvahn, Highcliff Castle, and Port Llast (among others) with impunity. One thing that will characterize all of these places (sayeth I) will be how much they haven't changed in the past 150+ years, campaign-specific changes I make notwithstanding.
I find it ironic that these places, probably not all of which were created by 'Realms scholars', have a 'Realmsy' feel to them where the new edition Realms do not. And I doubt there has been, or will be, any published information about them, thus anything I make (and possibly post (as fan material) on the 'Net) will be unlikely (at best) to conflict with official canon.
I know this is slightly off-topic, but this really sparked my muse. Just how much old lore on the Sword Coast North have you got Old Man Harpell, and how much would you be able to use, given setting a campaign there post-Spellplague? I am an absolute nut for that area, and your suggestion has fired me up, despite not having wanted to have anything to do with 4E up to now. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 11:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
...can you find anything...anything at all, that you actually like about it?
I've had a good thirty minute browse of this thread, maybe longer, enjoying that comfortable post-prandial feeling but I can't think of anything that I actually like about the new version.
I can see how turning everything up on its head and giving the place a radical change can be appealing, certainly to newcomers. I can see that the designers had fun.
It's not for me though. It's bit like as if Tolkien was a game designer trying to explain to players of Beleriand that they've now got Numenor and Middle Earth, then later on saying they've still got Middle Earth. Then saying with the Fourth Age they've still got hobbits, dwarves and humans.
It's a big change. Full credit to the designers for having the guts to make these changes, since they're clearly able to make a whole new world and take it in a new direction. Yet I can't find anything to like about it myself.
Myself, I've constantly thought that this new version of the Realms is Shadow Faerūn. It's something made up by Shar. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 13:02:40
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Speaking to Old Man Harpell's main question: Something 'new concept' to me that I like is the 100 years of time that's passed since the Spellplague happened.
The Cormyr article in Dragon Magazine gave us a timeline of events post-Spellplague and explained much of what happened in and to Cormyr. This explanation of the intervening time between campaign periods and this filling in of the history is what I found most interesting and exciting.
As OMH said in his opening remarks for this scroll, we're many of us comfortable with known places like Cormyr and Waterdeep; they work in the post-Spellplague Realms.
What I'm getting at that learning about and thinking about what happened works for the wider Realms too.
Thanks to the time-jump, we have 100 more years of time added to the Realms chronology. Thing is we don't have all the details. Our knowledge is sparse compared to what we know of the setting just prior to the Spellplague. We have the FRCG to help us bridge the gap (I guess you could think of it as "the other side" of the gap). ;)
And that's what I like: The unknown.
One of the new mysteries I like to think about (and hope to someday learn more about via a good Realms novel) is why Halruaa was destroyed, when so many other magical places rode out the Spellplague. The FRCG gives us some answers, but they're minimal in my eyes. I think a bigger story is there, perhaps one connected to Azuth's fall and his many followers in Halruaa.
So I hope to learn why it happened and in the interim I enjoy thinking up all kinds of possible scenarios on my own.
The Realms have always been able to excite a gamer's mind by giving out little tidbits of information that leave you both thinking about the setting and wanting more. For me the time that passed after the Spellplague is valuable because that's 100 years of unknowns to explore. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 19 Aug 2009 13:13:14 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 13:21:21
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Mr_Miscellany is right in this point: the new gap in the chronology open a brand new avenue of possibilities for a DM to tailor his Realms campaigns.
Yes, we always have a possibility to create something interesting in the 1372 DR Realms, but the severe lack of timeline information is something different, tha can be used to someone, as a Realms DM, create good interesting stories. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 15:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Mr_Miscellany is right in this point: the new gap in the chronology open a brand new avenue of possibilities for a DM to tailor his Realms campaigns.
Yes, we always have a possibility to create something interesting in the 1372 DR Realms, but the severe lack of timeline information is something different, tha can be used to someone, as a Realms DM, create good interesting stories.
But we've always had that gap in the time-line. In the previous versions, the gap has always come at the point where the players and the DM's picked up the books and said let's play a game. That gap is the future of the setting.
Now we have a big gap before the game as well.
The big problem, for me, with the time-line jump is that you know how it ends. It's like recording a sports game only for someone to tell you the result before you see the game. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 15:25:04
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I agree with you, Kiaransalyn. This is what I mean when I say that we have this possibility before, but this one is of a different scope.
Let me give a personal example:
To the campaign of a friend, I want to create a knight (3.5) of Shadowdale. And I fix in the details. Because of this, I finish creating the son of Korhun Lherar (2nd edition Shadowdale booklet) and a Marliir noblewoman that goes to the dale. My character finish taking care of the family farm - that was in the care of Vernon Hillstar. Well detailed and very attached to Realmslore local.
Now, in the new setting, if I was going to create the same character, I will have more room to let my devil mind think in something...
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
Edited by - Chosen of Moradin on 19 Aug 2009 16:20:40 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 16:00:44
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I like your response Chosen of Moradin.
One thing I suppose that could be fun in the new setting is to play a sort of 'Echoes' campaign. Maybe your PC hears an echo from the past, could it be a former deity wanting to re-enter Realmspace. On a small scale, new PC's may be the descendants of former PC's by a generation or two. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 16:15:49
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I fully agree! 
My actual campaign - that runs in the Unnaprocheable East, and is a adaptation of Runes of Chaos (Spellbound boxed set) with some mix of my own is near the climax! After the grand finale (the PCs freeing Eltab and all that havoc), I will make the transition to the 4E rules, and I will give a timeline jump of 24 years. So, the campaign will develop in the aftermath of the release of Eltab in "my Realms". My players will play with the "new generation", the sons and relatives of their actual characters.
Some of the players (elves and one dwarf) will mantain their actual characters -but I“m working in a good reason for their loss of levels (yeah, they will start with brand new 1st level characters in the 4 Edition. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 15:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
It's a big change. Full credit to the designers for having the guts to make these changes, since they're clearly able to make a whole new world and take it in a new direction. Yet I can't find anything to like about it myself.
Well said, I agree. FR needs to stay fresh and current to stay in print, but the execution was sadly flawed.
Actually I've been tempted to start a new FR game in set in the 4e era, just to take the changes down a notch. I think the 4e setting can be salvaged, but we need more articles like the Brian's Cormyr article.
Actually one of the things that really bugged by about the Campaign Guide was the constant references to the Spellplague, almost 100 years prior to the current date, instead showing us the setting as it is at the current date.
The book read like a in-house explanation of some sort, not a fresh take on the setting as it is in 1479 DR. You don't bet many new fans this way, you only alienate the old ones, and I'm puzzled that wotc don't realize that.
I think Campaign Guide had worked much better if they had treated the Spellplage as something in the past, and not made such a big deal about it. After all 100 years is a long time. "Show, dont tell", as they say. |
Edited by - Snotlord on 21 Aug 2009 15:31:21 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2009 : 03:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
There are certain locales we encountered in such products as the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate series that I will be using, meaning that I can use such places as High Hedge, Nashkel, Beregost, Friendly Arm, Arvahn, Highcliff Castle, and Port Llast (among others) with impunity. One thing that will characterize all of these places (sayeth I) will be how much they haven't changed in the past 150+ years, campaign-specific changes I make notwithstanding.
I find it ironic that these places, probably not all of which were created by 'Realms scholars', have a 'Realmsy' feel to them where the new edition Realms do not. And I doubt there has been, or will be, any published information about them, thus anything I make (and possibly post (as fan material) on the 'Net) will be unlikely (at best) to conflict with official canon.
I know this is slightly off-topic, but this really sparked my muse. Just how much old lore on the Sword Coast North have you got Old Man Harpell, and how much would you be able to use, given setting a campaign there post-Spellplague? I am an absolute nut for that area, and your suggestion has fired me up, despite not having wanted to have anything to do with 4E up to now.
Not really off-topic at all. Consider:
WotC described very little change-wise about the Sword Coast North - in a way, it fits the scroll's premise quite well, as it means they did not play Slam Dance there the way they did with, say, Halruaa and the Old Empires - and it may very well be that certain locations from that area will never really be considered for development, regardless of what WotC does with the Shattered Realms in the future. Thus, I considered it open season on the place, and anything 'fan material' I place on the web in the future will showcase how much has NOT changed.
I am already running a campaign based out of Beregost. The town itself needed very little work to get it up and running - I put a wall around the town, mostly intended to keep wild animals out, but that's the only real change. Most buildings (or their practically identical replacements) are exactly where they were in 1375 DR - someone shunted forward a hundred years might wonder where that wall came from, but until they actually went inside a building, there would be few discernible differences.
I won't bore you with a host of campaign-specific details, but suffice to say that I will tamper with very little as it was presented to us in the video games these many years past, and that the campaign itself will end up seeing the players 'fixing' the lands of the Sword Coast to where they 'should be'. I am playing a very slow game of Tales of the Sword Coast, and making a pile of notes as I go. And apart from a necessary trip to Skullport (with the reintroduction of some faces from yesteryear ), I believe I will be able to get the characters at least started into their Epic tiers without ever going anywhere else.
Also, with the exception of Neverwinter itself, all the lands there are also fair game (Neverwinter, as Brian James has stated, is likely to be the subject of a future video game). And in any iteration I cook up, they will have changed little, if at all. I will be using Highcliff Castle (and Highcliff), for instance - but of course, no ship will be able to sail for Neverwinter (for whatever reason).
So beware that wizened old drow mage that's in residence at Feldpost's Inn...you never know what he might ask of you...  |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 09:54:21
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Slightly off topic, but I'll remedy it soon:
Old Man Harpell, you should definitely look into getting a copy of Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, written by Mr. Greenwood himself some 5 years before Baldur's Gate came out, and detailing places such as Beregost, Ulgoth's Beard, High Hedge, Gullykin -- indeed, most all of the details in those cities in Baldur's Gate come from this source.
And the remedy:
As for the 4e realms, I must say the only thing at this point that really strikes me as being worth reading about in novels and sourcebooks would be Netheril, one of my favourite aspects of the Realms for quite a while now -- and, of course, now that it's once again a relevant force, it's that much more exciting. I also like some of what I've read about Laerakond, though I'll wait until I see how its handled in novels and suchlike before judging it. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
Edited by - Sandro on 02 Oct 2009 09:54:55 |
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You may hate the Shattered Realms, but...
