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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 19:44:52
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I hope it is ok to take this question here.
I plan to have a fight against a returning enemy in a trapped room. She knows where the traps are, my players do not. I think it could be pretty interesting, I usually don't use traps. But I have problems with the technical details of this. If the fighter charges and falls into a pit he obviously falls down and can't continue the attack. But if he makes his dex check, can he continue to charge or is he unable to charge anyway since the path isn't clear as he assumed?
If anyone has suggestions of fun traps to use I would be really grateful too :)
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 19:52:42
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I'd rule that the charge is broken since avoiding the trap means he has to adjust so he doesn't fall in. Whether that be stopping dead, veering off to either side or even running across and jumping when the floor gives out; he's no longer focused on attacking the enemy but on keeping his balance.
If he has the feat the allows him to maneuver when charging, though, he's good. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 20:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kairin
I hope it is ok to take this question here.
I plan to have a fight against a returning enemy in a trapped room. She knows where the traps are, my players do not. I think it could be pretty interesting, I usually don't use traps. But I have problems with the technical details of this. If the fighter charges and falls into a pit he obviously falls down and can't continue the attack. But if he makes his dex check, can he continue to charge or is he unable to charge anyway since the path isn't clear as he assumed?
If anyone has suggestions of fun traps to use I would be really grateful too :)
I have to agree with Ashe on his comment but I would also like to add that I usually do trap rolls in 2 stages...One spot check to determine IF they see it before its too late, and an avoidance check if they do see it.
As to fun traps, if your bad guy is in the room with them I would use a leg breaker type trap...no big pit but a small drop(6-12 inches) for a 1x1 section...that way the bad guy doesn't run the risk of falling into his own 30ft deep poisoned spike trap. but it also puts your hero on his face right in front of the bad guy..and that's always a good time for the DM |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 20:52:24
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| Hm, but traps comes with high search checks, don't they? They have no rogue and have just walked through traps and taken the damage in the past. Rushing across the room doesn't seem like a good time to spot traps ;) |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 21:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kairin
Hm, but traps comes with high search checks, don't they? They have no rogue and have just walked through traps and taken the damage in the past. Rushing across the room doesn't seem like a good time to spot traps ;)
I go with the definition of "spot" being that its a quick, no thought or concentration required occurrence. A "search" check is what requires the player to say "I am doing this".
Take it this way..Run across your living room as someone throws a beach ball in front of you...takes no real action to notice it..but may take some high stepping to avoid it...if you can(high dex/evasion/etc) |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 22:04:45
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One of my personal favorite tricks, though it's not technically a trap, is to have a pool of mud that the PCs have to walk through. Then the villain wizard casts mud to rock.
Alternately, you can cast rock to mud on the floor and then the reverse the next round for the same effect. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 22:15:54
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If you're working with 3e, both Dungeonscape and the Eberron supplement Secrets of Xen'Drik provide details on turning traps into encounters.
When picking traps for a complicated encounter like this, you'd want to consider a few things:
A) What squares of the map will that trap affect, for how long, and how potently? If the PCs set it off, are they dead, need to move very quickly, or can they just not operate in that space?
B) How many traps will be up at any given time? Is there a possibility that there will be no safe, untrapped space in the room? If so, how significantly does that change the difficulty? Can the NPC trigger them (say, using levers) or only the PCs?
C) Can the enemy be bull rushed into any traps? (Read up on bull rushing, and obstructed/difficult terrain.)
D) How do the traps affect EL or experience gained? |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2009 : 22:33:01
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quote:
But if he makes his dex check, can he continue to charge or is he unable to charge anyway since the path isn't clear as he assumed?
Imagining this happening at my gaming table got me chuckling.
GM: Roll Dex to avoid the trap
Player: WOOT!! 25! I continue to charge.
GM: Umm no... I believe the trap counts as "difficult" terrain, at a minimum.... sorry your charge ends. =)
To add to Arivia's list
E) Do the traps reset? Manually/Automatically? How fast?
F) Can the traps move? An alternating pattern of magical glyphs would be interesting =)
Have you ever played Robo Rally (boardgame)? FUN GAME! =)
http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic249264_t.jpg
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 16:52:10
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Just want to start with thanking everyone who has given me ideas :)
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
If you're working with 3e, both Dungeonscape and the Eberron supplement Secrets of Xen'Drik provide details on turning traps into encounters.
When picking traps for a complicated encounter like this, you'd want to consider a few things:
A) What squares of the map will that trap affect, for how long, and how potently? If the PCs set it off, are they dead, need to move very quickly, or can they just not operate in that space?
B) How many traps will be up at any given time? Is there a possibility that there will be no safe, untrapped space in the room? If so, how significantly does that change the difficulty? Can the NPC trigger them (say, using levers) or only the PCs?
C) Can the enemy be bull rushed into any traps? (Read up on bull rushing, and obstructed/difficult terrain.)
D) How do the traps affect EL or experience gained?
Hm, I don't use Eberron stuff but I might be able to borrow Dungeonscape...
I plan to make a map of all traps, with a certain pattern one must walk through to not set them off. My players are powergamers and hitting them hard is usually fun for everyone, as long as it doesn't get blatantly unfair. I looked at the traps at the d20srd website (I play 3.5e) and planned to hand out exp for the challenge rating the traps have. I got the impression that you get the exp by disarming them, but surviving them in a fight is good enough for me :) Do you think that makes sense?
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
quote:
But if he makes his dex check, can he continue to charge or is he unable to charge anyway since the path isn't clear as he assumed?
Imagining this happening at my gaming table got me chuckling.
GM: Roll Dex to avoid the trap
Player: WOOT!! 25! I continue to charge.
GM: Umm no... I believe the trap counts as "difficult" terrain, at a minimum.... sorry your charge ends. =)
I can imagine how this conversation would go on..
Player: I should able to charge! Hand me the rule book.
DM: You know, I did read up on this and checked out forums in preparation.
Player: Oh, you read forums? Okay then. |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 17:47:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kairin
Just want to start with thanking everyone who has given me ideas :)
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
If you're working with 3e, both Dungeonscape and the Eberron supplement Secrets of Xen'Drik provide details on turning traps into encounters.
When picking traps for a complicated encounter like this, you'd want to consider a few things:
A) What squares of the map will that trap affect, for how long, and how potently? If the PCs set it off, are they dead, need to move very quickly, or can they just not operate in that space?
B) How many traps will be up at any given time? Is there a possibility that there will be no safe, untrapped space in the room? If so, how significantly does that change the difficulty? Can the NPC trigger them (say, using levers) or only the PCs?
C) Can the enemy be bull rushed into any traps? (Read up on bull rushing, and obstructed/difficult terrain.)
D) How do the traps affect EL or experience gained?
Hm, I don't use Eberron stuff but I might be able to borrow Dungeonscape...
I plan to make a map of all traps, with a certain pattern one must walk through to not set them off. My players are powergamers and hitting them hard is usually fun for everyone, as long as it doesn't get blatantly unfair. I looked at the traps at the d20srd website (I play 3.5e) and planned to hand out exp for the challenge rating the traps have. I got the impression that you get the exp by disarming them, but surviving them in a fight is good enough for me :) Do you think that makes sense?
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
quote:
But if he makes his dex check, can he continue to charge or is he unable to charge anyway since the path isn't clear as he assumed?
Imagining this happening at my gaming table got me chuckling.
GM: Roll Dex to avoid the trap
Player: WOOT!! 25! I continue to charge.
GM: Umm no... I believe the trap counts as "difficult" terrain, at a minimum.... sorry your charge ends. =)
I can imagine how this conversation would go on..
Player: I should able to charge! Hand me the rule book.
DM: You know, I did read up on this and checked out forums in preparation.
Player: Oh, you read forums? Okay then.
As for giving XP for surviving a trap I would give a discounted amount of xp for it
Disarming/seeing and avoiding = full
Seeing and rushing through = 3/4
Not seeing and bulling through = 1/2
Not seeing and avoiding by sheer blind luck = no XP |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 18:48:32
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| Do they really have a chance to spot the traps? As I understood it they need to do a search check. And they are not going to do a search check in a room with a sorcerer trying to kill them. They have no rogue either. I'm considering to be generous with exp as the traps basically are more enemies they have no chance to detect in time. |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 19:20:48
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I would say they have a chance to spot any "obvious" signs of a trap.
But if the traps are diguised*sp* or hidden well then no, they have no chance..its a dex check.
As for xp generosity... I like to take the "asign xp depending on how hard a time they had with it"
I know it slows it down a bit after the fight...but I have had my group totally blow up my planned out encounters so often that I habitually don't even THINK about xp until after the encounter. |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 19:31:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Teneck
I would say they have a chance to spot any "obvious" signs of a trap.
But if the traps are diguised*sp* or hidden well then no, they have no chance..its a dex check.
As for xp generosity... I like to take the "asign xp depending on how hard a time they had with it"
I know it slows it down a bit after the fight...but I have had my group totally blow up my planned out encounters so often that I habitually don't even THINK about xp until after the encounter.
Heh, that's true. But I had that discussion with my players and we decided that for fights exp tables are absolute. May not be a perfect solution but it does make things easier. I remember the time when they fought a kraken I had given some crazy template. Fighter killed it in one round. He hit it for over 400 damage. The poor kraken never got to do anything. I didn't like to hand out the high amount of exp the tables suggested, but fighter made the argument that he shouldn't be penalized because the dice love him. I guess that is a point... |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 19:34:49
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Regarding the XP, the traps should have Challenge Ratings, which work the same as Monster Challenge ratings. It should also give you an idea of what level the encounter is against the party.
For instance: Sorcerer L6, Trap #1 CR 5, Trap #2 CR 4, Trap #3 CR 5. This would have an EL around 8-9. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 21:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Regarding the XP, the traps should have Challenge Ratings, which work the same as Monster Challenge ratings. It should also give you an idea of what level the encounter is against the party.
For instance: Sorcerer L6, Trap #1 CR 5, Trap #2 CR 4, Trap #3 CR 5. This would have an EL around 8-9.
Right...an EL...What do you do if they (the players) see it and choose not to do anything about it or miss it entirely/ never set it off?
That's why I adjusted the xp award system a little bit. I have had players like Karin's that either don't have a rogue or just don't want to take the time to disarm.
I remember one in particular that trapped a bad guy in Iron Bands of Ballaro*sp* and just kept throwing him down suspected trapped hallways...messy ...effective, but messy nonetheless. |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 22:04:18
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| The "official" rule is that if they miss it, are able to get around it without disarming it, or even if they go straight through it and survive, they get the full xp for the trap. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 22:17:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
The "official" rule is that if they miss it, are able to get around it without disarming it, or even if they go straight through it and survive, they get the full xp for the trap.
I know...still seems kinda silly to me..I suppose that would work if it's a quick thing or a pick up game, or even if you are just starting out. But I have never been able to justify giving the same amount of xp for going through the trap (without even seeing it till it went off)and searching/finding/disarming. And my players usually take it one step further by stealing/re-setting to trap the bad guy.
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"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2009 : 22:57:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kairin
Do you think that makes sense?
With the significant CR difference between traps and creatures (excepting the encounter traps in those two supplements I mentioned) it may be better to just give a 10-25% bonus to the NPC's EL as suggested in the DMG. It's the old 64 orcs are an EL 10 problem, just shown slightly differently. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2009 : 00:57:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Teneck
[quote]Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
But I have never been able to justify giving the same amount of xp for going through the trap (without even seeing it till it went off)and searching/finding/disarming.
One learns a lot from their mistakes. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
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Fight in a trapped room: technical questions
