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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
 Posted - 29 May 2009 : 01:03:26
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So I would like to ask some advice from the many DMs that are on this forum. What do you do when you just have one of those players that totally gets on your nerves? I have a very limited number of players available, it seems that this is the curse of small town living. I just prayed for time to go by fast till Prairie Con rolled around every year. Well these are some of the problems I have run into. I mentioned on one thread about one of my players stealing from the party, pocketing treasure, and just being a plain prick. He justified everything by saying that he was playing a rogue and since he was CN he was allowed. I have another player who thinks that CN means that they can do whatever they want including evil acts as long as they justify it for themselves. They have also used these type of antics to totally sink a couple of brilliant campaigns. So I am asking advice on how to handle this problem other than the obvious kick them out of the game. Thanks for any input.
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Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 01:32:12
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Thatīs actually a rather complicated question...because thereīs certainly a huge difference between the player being a prick or his character being a prick. In the latter case, you could have them get theirs from apprpriate NPCīs they have managed to anger by their actions (stealing from the wrong person, etc.) or simply have them hounded by forces of law/good when they commit evil acts. Or simply have these "brilliant" plans they have backfire on them, e.g. having them become the victim of a theft themselves after they have stolen somehing, because that level 20 thief was laying in wait for some fools to do his dirty work for them. Another option would be, if they have a patron god who might not look too kindly on such behaviour.
Regarding their "this alignment allows this and that"-argument...Itīs a fine line between character freedom and campaign wrecker sometimes, but after all, as DM, YOU have the final say as to whether a characterīs actions violate his alignment or not.
If the player himself is the prick, then in-game retribution by the gameworld may not really do you a lot of good. Simply put, one option would be to let the other players handle it by having their characters respond to such actions in-game and making it clear to the pricks that they wonīt accept actions like these from members of their adventuring group. And you should also ask those other players for input and maybe strategize with them, because one prick at the table may be enough to ruin the fun for the other players as well...I had a whole group lynch a PC once after he had finally gone too far.
Generally, thatīs all I can offer. Other possibilities and exact actions depend very much on the exact situations that occurred. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Zealot
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 02:45:27
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| I appreciate the answer and I think all of that sounds reasonable. Thanks for the time. |
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 03:21:51
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No problem and Iīm glad if you found it useful...we poor DMīs have to stick up for ne another after all |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 11:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
...I had a whole group lynch a PC once after he had finally gone too far.
I had a group that turned a PC in to the authorities after he murdered a tax collector and his half-brother (another PC). Up til the time the PC was hanged he kept telling the Magistrates "You can't do this, I'm a Player Character!" The Magistrates replied; "What's a Player Character?" |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 14:28:19
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| Reminds me of the group I recently left. One player kept insisting on playing evil-aligned characters when the rest of the party averaged 'neutral-good'. He never got over us killing his character (a mindbender that already had two powerful NPCs under his thrall). He munchkined the will save of his thrall power to be over 35 and the other PCs of the party began to worry that he would enthrall them soon (rightfully so, I must add). When the local government hired us to take care of a problem, they also asked if we could 'take care' of him as well, to which the entire group unanimously agreed. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 15:28:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
One player kept insisting on playing evil-aligned characters when the rest of the party averaged 'neutral-good'.
I actually want to try that: being the lone NE person in a good-aligned party. There would have to be a very good reason for it, of course. I'd still have the same basic goals as the rest of the group (and thus wouldn't work against them), but my reasons and methodology wouldn't be the same as the rest of the group's.
I think it would be a fun role-playing challenge, and could make for an interesting group dynamic (though there would be a problem if there was a paladin in the party).
And it's not unprecedented in Realmslore, either: the Deep Delvers of Waterdeep include all the chaotic alignments. This is in the Ruins of Undermountain boxed set. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 15:43:20
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Oh, when done properly, it's great fun.
However, this guy's definition of evil was 'rape the necromancer witch when the rest of the party is somewhere else'. Which was a different character in a new campaign that started right before I left. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 15:44:45
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quote:
I think it would be a fun role-playing challenge, and could make for an interesting group dynamic (though there would be a problem if there was a paladin in the party).
Iīve actually had this scenario in a past campaign as well and, in contrast to my earlier story, in that case it worked wonderfully. It all depends on that which it usually depends on...good players will pull it off, make it work and enjoy the experience. I love it when individuals in the party have differing approaches or even aims, if iīs all played out well. A dynamic of conflict within an adventuring group can be a great part of the story in and of itself...if the groupīs dynamic can handle it.
quote:
Up til the time the PC was hanged he kept telling the Magistrates "You can't do this, I'm a Player Character!" The Magistrates replied; "What's a Player Character?"
 Iīve had one of those once..."What do you mean, dead? Iīve got 77 hp and no hangmanīs axe can deal out that damage in a single blow." Ah well, munchkinism is not a good career choice at my table. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 19:28:47
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quote:
Iīve had one of those once..."What do you mean, dead? Iīve got 77 hp and no hangmanīs axe can deal out that damage in a single blow." Ah well, munchkinism is not a good career choice at my table.
Heh. I've had someone like this. I just shrugged and said, maybe you're right. It actually takes him 3 or 4 swings to decapitate you, and you are conscious and in epic pain for most of the time. That make you feel better?  |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 20:21:49
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Actually, per the 3.5 rules, they'd probably be tied to the 'chopping block'. Thus rendering them 'helpless' and allowing the headsman to make a coup-de-grace. Automatic critical hit with a great axe means (1d12+X) x3 damage (X is any bonuses for strength, magic weapon, etc.).
If we figure the headsman has an 18 Strength (not unknown for a warrior class), and he has a +1 headsman axe (station of office), that would put the average damage at 34 points. Meaning the character would have to make a DC 44 Fortitude save or die. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 29 May 2009 20:28:35 |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 22:07:57
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I docked experience points.
Twice or three times I actually had to take a level from a character.
Good thing he was a good sport about it.
Do not use this approach unless you know you group very well,
and let them know the rule before hand. |
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Fisk
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2009 : 23:39:47
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I have a character like this, he just doesn't do anything bad to his party. The only problem is that there's a VERY intolerant LG Wizard in the party (played by a very intolerant person), who will allow no evil acts to be done. The player of the wizard constantly metagames, making sure that he's always on the lookout for the evil character, even though the evil character never directly shows his alignment.
The evil character (Dwarven fighter) and a rogue are working out how to covertly kill the wizard, who doesn't know, as he'd metagame... We're playing again tomorrow, so we'll see how it works out.
Zealot, I live in a very small town also, and I know how it is to have a small group. I concur with the others, and would suggest that you let the characters handle it. Perhaps, the rogue will get a hand chopped off (common punishment for stealing), and suffer some permanant penalties to his character. That could lead to some interesting role play. |
Fisk |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2009 : 22:15:16
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| a headsman should have a vorpal greataxe :p |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2009 : 05:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
a headsman should have a vorpal greataxe :p
Only if he's a headsman in Suzail or Waterdeep. A vorpal greataxe costs 72,320 gp. That's a lot of money to dispense justice... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Mogrim
Acolyte
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2009 : 19:23:22
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| I find that the biggest thing for moving a game along and having radically different alignments at the table means you need to have mature players. If the players in question who are playing evil characters are mature enough to handle the consequences of my decisions on their actions... well things run smoothly. If not, then we ALWAYS have problems. If the rest of the group are not having fun because of how he plays his character then it is a major problem. I would say pull him aside outside of the game table and talk with him. Let him know what his actions are doing to the rest of the party, and then see if he changes. If he is willing to be mature about it, then let him continue playing. If not let the party decide what his fate should be. That way you don't look the bad guy, and the player in question understands that his playing is causing a rift in the group. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2009 : 19:43:40
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I agree with most of the above points. The keys are:
1) Don't meta-game (i.e. respond in-game to out-of-game slights): Punishing a character for the dickeries of the player is passive-aggressive and won't solve anything.
2) Don't tolerate it: You need to sit down and talk with him, explain that his behavior is disruptive to the other players and the game itself.
3) Be very clear what is appropriate and what is not: Personally, I don't allow sexual violence in my games (like "raping the necromancer witch when the rest of the party is elsewhere"), and that is grounds for immediate expulsion from my table. Give him a set of guidelines for what is going too far, so that he knows how far he can push the limit.
4) In-game actions need to have in-game consequences: Don't metagame, but if the character does hilariously terrible things (like rape, or murder, or grand theft), then have him pay for it. Have the authorities come after him, with instructions to fight through whatever defenders he has (i.e., the rest of the party)--see how long the group will tolerate him pulling his crap when they're the ones having to fight to defend him. I do *not* recommend pitting one PC against another, but when things happen like rape or the like, that needs to be dealt with within the party (or turn it into a story).
5) Watch out for the whole group: Your responsibility as the DM is to make sure everyone has fun or--barring that--that the most people have fun the most time. And if one bad apple is spoiling the bunch, you need to deal with it.
Cheers
P.S. I have played the "traitor" evil character in a neutral/good party before, and it's pretty rockin'. The trick is not to foster personal resentments (i.e., yeah, you'll betray the other PCs when you need to, but you're not specifically out to get them--more you're using them to get something else, like vengeance or gold or whatever). Also redemption is a good theme when you're the NE one. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 00:33:40
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Everything that Erik says is absolutely spot-on save for the fact that this guy sounds like he's a p@#ck and may not react well to the "heart to heart" approach.
A more subtle, but very DM interventionist approach (so, it might not be the way to go) is to hook him up with a magic item that changes his alignment to lawful good (such as "Narath's Ring" which acts as a ring of protection +2 but was crafted for the monk-warriors of Ilmater based in Keltar and enspelled to never allow their wearers to "go rogue" and commit evil deeds following the events in the church noted in the sourcebook "Prayers From the Faithful" ... just a suggestion: the item could be anything ).
That way, Mr "I'm just roleplaying my alignment" will have to start doing all those good, non-disruptive things in-game which will hopefully deflate his disruptive tendencies.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 09:02:02
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When my current group was back in high school we had the same problem with the CN alignment. It was the alignment for the worst RPers, that couldn't play a character consistantly. They had diahrea of the mouth, and the whole "I can do anything I feel like in the moment, cause my alignment allows me to be !!!crazy!!!"
We end up disallowing the alignment. We also disallowed the N alignment, cause no one was capable of playing that alignment as well.
As for Evil characters mixed in with good, I'd suggest again placing limits during character generation. If you're wanting to run a game without evil ninja drow, you as the GM has the right to shape the party to meet a certain theme.
Imagine if one of the Fellowship members was a cursing orc rape monkey. It'd kinda ruin the whole story, which is what a campaign should be about. If they are resistant to this idea of the GM setting up a "casting call" of sorts, then offer the addition of occasional one shot Intermission games. The players can true play ANYTHING they like. Each of these sessions starts off with the group entering dungeon X. Get crazy with the rules, such as none of the characters stay dead. They are raised before each session, no loss of XP. You get to try out combat encounters, and place inappropriate creatures in the dungeon, so you can run NPC monsters you've never been able to run ebfore as well. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 09:41:30
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My group had a similar issue with a player who was CN. After some time adventuring together, the character was constantly at odds with the partly leader (who was LG). Time and time again during adventures, he defied orders, went against tactics, and often put the entire group in jeopardy. He always justified his actions by his 'alignment'. Fine and good, but actions have consequnces over time.
During one adventure the party was battling some dark dwarves. It was a harsh battle, and though greatly outnumbered but we eventually beat them into surrender. But (being adwarf) the CN character would not accept their surrender. He went against the party leaders orders and continued to attack. He had previously been warned that if he took such actions again he would face the consequences alone. Thus the rest of the party did not intervene and he was left to battle the dark dwarves alone and ultimately fell to their numbers. The player was really upset, and we all had a long dicsussion after about roleplay, alignment and consequenses. The following week we RPed a big funeral and sendoff for the character (who had done many heroic deeds over the course of his RP life).
The point here is that the players can also have some influences on the solitary player who derives fun at the expense of the party.
Playing an evil (or chaotic) character in a mostly good (or Lawful) group takes an expereinced role-player. Someone who can understand the 'nuances' of the group (as well as the personalities of the other players).
Also I think that the player in question needs to know that at some point he may die or need to reliquish his/her character as a main 'party' character. For example, when an evil character gains so much power that the it draws the attention of the good PC group one might let that character become a primary NPC and hook (allowing the original player to RP him/her at times, etc) |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 17:35:33
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| I currently play a CN character and it was fun in the beginning. But it started messing up the game and now he wants to redeem himself and in his quest for inner peace he decided to become a monk. |
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RedneckBadgerLord
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 22:28:48
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I feel your pain. I used to have a NG Druid who did not understand that he couldn't have a +5 vorpal/returning/flaming/thundering dwarven waraxe, and then he started doing things in the campaign to completely deride the seriousness of the situation. (Ie at 5th level, he laughed in the face of a GW red dragon!) After awhile, I got tired of this guy's antics and took away his druid powers and made his alignment CE and he went through nine hells of an atonement quest before he regained NG status.
He never messed with me again. |
Redwall. Drizzt. Kentucky. Enough said.
I was weaned on 2E Baldur's Gate. Learned 3.5E, and can't stand 4E WoF. (Though I try not to mess up canon too badly). |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 18:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Everything that Erik says is absolutely spot-on save for the fact that this guy sounds like he's a p@#ck and may not react well to the "heart to heart" approach.
Heh heh. You got it, Krash.
I'm going to add point 6:
6) A DM's responsibility is to the group: If none of the above works, then kick him to the curb.
Re changing player alignments:
I haven't had good luck with this approach myself--it only really works in the player wants to change anyway. One player was doing the "evil egg amongst the good chickens" thing (and not terribly well; i.e., disrupting my game), so I had the villains capture him and put a helm of opposite alignment on his head, thinking to use this "good guy" as a spy (i.e., that it would turn him evil). Unfortunately, since he was base-evil, this made his alignment good, and so the plan didn't work. The player got SO pissed at me . . . and honestly, it wasn't all that well conceived a narrative idea.
Anecdote:
I don't know if this will be really relevant, but one of my favorite characters I ever played was a warmage who *pretended* to be evil in a party of neutral people (as a means of "keeping everyone the hell away from me") but was really neutral good, and was particularly horrified by the actions expected of her. Only the LG cleric in the party was particularly kind to her, seeking to "redeem" her from her brutal past (which she was faking). It's all a complicated story, but the RPing was totally choice.
Even when I *do* play an evil character, I still work with the other characters, precisely because I know that I will get f---ed over if I go rogue (either directly by them, or through neglect without their support). Also, it amuses an evil character to ruin the accomplishments of goody-two-shoes heroes, particularly when they can blame someone else ("don't look at me, the sexy elf assassin--the dwarf did it!").
When you think about it, evil characters are almost *more* inclined to "go with the flow" than good characters, who might be driven by such silly things as *noble principles.* Pshaw!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 02 Jun 2009 18:52:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 21:10:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Even when I *do* play an evil character, I still work with the other characters, precisely because I know that I will get f---ed over if I go rogue (either directly by them, or through neglect without their support). Also, it amuses an evil character to ruin the accomplishments of goody-two-shoes heroes, particularly when they can blame someone else ("don't look at me, the sexy elf assassin--the dwarf did it!").
That's my thing... I don't want to play an evil character to screw over or oppose his good-aligned compatriots. I want to play someone with similar goals, but darker reasons and methods. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2009 : 17:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Zealot
So I would like to ask some advice from the many DMs that are on this forum. What do you do when you just have one of those players that totally gets on your nerves? I have a very limited number of players available, it seems that this is the curse of small town living. I just prayed for time to go by fast till Prairie Con rolled around every year. Well these are some of the problems I have run into. I mentioned on one thread about one of my players stealing from the party, pocketing treasure, and just being a plain prick. He justified everything by saying that he was playing a rogue and since he was CN he was allowed. I have another player who thinks that CN means that they can do whatever they want including evil acts as long as they justify it for themselves. They have also used these type of antics to totally sink a couple of brilliant campaigns. So I am asking advice on how to handle this problem other than the obvious kick them out of the game. Thanks for any input.
I kinda feel like the PC is kinda right. If he chooses to steal from the other members of the party, that's his perrogative. However, there are always consequences, the least of which is whether or not he is acting in accordance with his alignment.
The question you have to ask yourself is why aren't the other PCs responding in game to the problem? How would you feel if you were stolen from? Does the party know? Do they think they are being plagued by bandits?
It sounds like the PC in question is trying to make a name for himself by being a thief (not a rogue, a thief). If this gets in the way of the fun, alter the fun. Make sure he is rolling dice everytime he tries to steal, and if he fails, make sure the PC he's trying to take from gets a chance to catch him!
If he wants to keep doing that, eventually, the other PCs should take it out of his hide, turn him over to the local sherriff, or strip him of his own belongings until he learns a lesson...
or...the other route, become impressed by his skill and become a gang of bandits themselves.
There's always an in-game solution. Never be offended by what your PCs do. They're actors. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2009 : 02:55:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
3) Be very clear what is appropriate and what is not: Personally, I don't allow sexual violence in my games (like "raping the necromancer witch when the rest of the party is elsewhere"), and that is grounds for immediate expulsion from my table. Give him a set of guidelines for what is going too far, so that he knows how far he can push the limit.
Necromancer witch? cue to "be agressive!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2XGp5ix8HE
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2009 : 05:56:45
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When I DM I actually keep track of the character's alignments myself and suggest people don't even bother writing anything on their character sheet about it. Just play a character and let me worry about whether or not they're staying neutral enough to be Druids or chaotic enough to be Barbarians or Lawful Good enough to remain Paladins.
(warning is always offered if they're straying to the point of losing class abilities of course)
The question then changes from "Gee Mitch, how come you always play CN?" to "Mitch, how come all of your characters are assholes?".
Tends to put things in perspective. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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Disciplinary Action
