| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 14 May 2009 : 22:04:29
|
I had thought to put this in the 'Sages of Realmslore' section, but I think this is more of a discussion then any sort of direct question.
The town/city of baffenburg was discovered (uncovered, really) in The Orc King. It was a town of Orcs and Dwarves that lived together in peace... 
Just where could this possibly fit-in with known history of FR and The North? Anyone (most especially Krash) have a any sort of timeline date in mind for this?
It seems to have been a contemporary of Gauntlgrym, if that helps.
There wasn't much to go on, aside from it seemed to be a co-operative effort and was swallowed-up by the earth at some point. It is unknown to Dwarves (obviously), which I find strange, unless it was purposely left-out of their histories (an experiment gone horribly wrong?)
There is also mention of the "Orc philosipher and wizard" Bowug Kr'kri, who was a leader within the community, and was the one that first lead the Orcs to the Dwarven settlement.
That one sounds like one of the Sharakim from RoD. If anyone recognizes my avatar I use over at WotC, you'll know why I have an interest in this lore. 
Homebrew:
Combining the little in tOK with the Sharakim fluff in RoD, I see a group of Orcs who were cursed in the Moonshaes, were driven from there and tried to settle in the north, befriended the Delzoun Dwarves (or at least one group of them), and for some reason the Orc or dwarvish (or both) Gods found the co-existance blasphemous, and dumped the lot of them into the earth. The city appears to be mostly intact, and considering we are talking about Dwarves and Orcs here, I get the feeling that both groups went their seperate ways after the disaster (no bodies/bones were found in the ruins).
The Orcs travelled north, eventually to settle on the southern border of the Tortured land... and became the Ondonti (going full-cirlcle with the fey connection brought-over from the Moonshaes).
That blends the Baffenburg Orcs with the Sharakim (and their fluff) and the Ondonti all together.
Anyone else have any thoughts? I wouldn't mind Brian (or anyone for that matter) chiming-in. He seems to be the current Moonshae-Guru, and the Sharakim Fluff lends itself to that region for an origin (the story of the sacred stag).
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 15 May 2009 04:32:29
|
|
|
skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 00:15:06
|
Hmm... I usually do not read Salvatore. However the Baffenburg construct would fit with his style. I am unsure if it is worth it to interpret too much lore into this issue.
As there is no lore on it, I would rather take it as an author's freedom which is often required to drive the story the way he wants it, fully aware that this cannot always comply completely with rules and lore.
- |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 04:35:58
|
Well, I actually thought it was one of his better books. I have read all of them (except the Pirate King), and I had thought he was losing his touch (I found the Hunter's Balde trilogy quite boring), but this one was very good. The combat wasn't overdone (like usual), and the 'Drizzt musings' were kept to a bear minimum.
This one reminded me of why he became FR's #1 author.
I have to admit, re-tooling the history of the north took me a bit by surprise, which is why I'm trying to make this work. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 05:35:55
|
I must say, whilst that 'idea' no doubt suited Salvatore's story end (the 'living in harmony' bit) it's a very (in my book) dissonant addition to the realmslore firmament. That said, I've had some thoughts regarding a 'fix' and will get back to you soonish.
Oh, and I wish that someone with guts and gumption would tell Salvatore that "Baffenburg" is a great name for a cute, little German city, but not so good for the fantasy Realms. Why, just why, do his editors not intervene and say "Great name! Change it!".*sigh*
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 15:03:10
|
I thought the exact same thing about the name.
But then again, it's WAAAAAY better then any Dwarf name (other then Bruenor) that he's ever come up with.
I think it's salvagable because 1) the Dwarves never heard of it, and 2) it was hit with a catastrophe that sank it into the ground.
That just screams 'secret' and 'divine intervention' to me, which works to our advantage given the fact it's un-Realmsish in flavor. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 20:12:38
|
Well to me it seemed to fit in with the type of author RAS is and his theme of "Going against the grain"
Drizzt: A noble drow
Bruenor: A dwarf that isn't clan specific when choosing family
Obould: An orc who isn't driven by conquest and thinks of others than himself
Wulfgar: A barbarian who shows mercy for those weaker than him
Entreri: An assassin who starting to judge his profession
Etc..Etc..Etc
So why are people suprised when he creates a town where two mortal enemies once thrived peacefully? Seems perfectly normal from RAS if you ask me. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 19:11:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought the exact same thing about the name.
But then again, it's WAAAAAY better then any Dwarf name (other then Bruenor) that he's ever come up with.
I think it's salvagable because 1) the Dwarves never heard of it, and 2) it was hit with a catastrophe that sank it into the ground.
That just screams 'secret' and 'divine intervention' to me, which works to our advantage given the fact it's un-Realmsish in flavor.
I don't know, that name is one of the worst I have seen, with the exception of the names taken directly from Earth that sneak in from time to time. |
|
|
|
Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 00:46:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I thought the exact same thing about the name.
But then again, it's WAAAAAY better then any Dwarf name (other then Bruenor) that he's ever come up with.
I think it's salvagable because 1) the Dwarves never heard of it, and 2) it was hit with a catastrophe that sank it into the ground.
That just screams 'secret' and 'divine intervention' to me, which works to our advantage given the fact it's un-Realmsish in flavor.
I don't know, that name is one of the worst I have seen, with the exception of the names taken directly from Earth that sneak in from time to time.
My feelings exactly! I'll echo George's words: why don't the editors care about names in the Realms novels? I liked the novel until the whole "orcs-and-dwarves-in-harmony" bit came up, topped with this completely "un-Realmsish" name. I stopped reading then and there.  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 14:58:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Obould: An orc who isn't driven by conquest and thinks of others than himself
Before or after he beats his consorts? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 20:11:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I don't know, that name is one of the worst I have seen, with the exception of the names taken directly from Earth that sneak in from time to time.
It's just taken almost directly from earth -- it's a play on Battenberg cake, right? |
|
|
|
BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2009 : 23:52:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I don't know, that name is one of the worst I have seen, with the exception of the names taken directly from Earth that sneak in from time to time.
It's just taken almost directly from earth -- it's a play on Battenberg cake, right?
Which is itself a reference to the Counts of Battenberg, a medieval town in West Germany.
Personally, I don't think it's quite as bad as Stumpet or Tred McKnuckles.... |
Edited by - BlackAce on 21 May 2009 23:52:45 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 04:00:20
|
| In any case, that cake sounds delicious! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 07:43:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I don't know, that name is one of the worst I have seen, with the exception of the names taken directly from Earth that sneak in from time to time.
It's just taken almost directly from earth -- it's a play on Battenberg cake, right?
Its still better than things like the Bozeman line and naming the villages of Netheril after members of Deep Purple singer Ian Gillan's late 70's bands.
There are reasons why I never could go with the "everythings canon" line. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 15:21:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It is unknown to Dwarves (obviously), which I find strange, unless it was purposely left-out of their histories (an experiment gone horribly wrong?)
This makes sense to me. The older Battlehammer dwarves didn't even like talking to young Bruenor about Mithral Hall after the clan's eviction:
quote:
The older dwarves died away in despair, the youngest forgot what had been. But Bruenor remembered. If Bangor and Garumn were dead, he was the king of Mithril Hall, and his vow from the very first day after the routing of Clan Battlehammer was to one day return to the secret mines and reclaim what was rightfully his.
But the heartbroken elders of his clan, lamenting the despoilment of all that they had ever built, would not think of returning to Mithril Hall, and, thinking that they were acting in his best interests, would not tell the inquisitive young Bruenor anything that would help him find the way.
A passing century, and then the bulk of another, did not quench Bruenor's thirst for revenge. Yet he knew his dreams of returning to be futile, for he had no idea of where the halls might lie, and so well had his clan kept the knowledge private, that no one at all had
more than the slightest hints of where to begin looking. Many came to believe that the whole legend of "the halls where the silver rivers run" was a ruse to cover a marketing trail from some southern city, and many others, believing in the lost treasures, set out to find the place, only to return months, or even years later, wondering if the skeptics had been correct.
Bruenor remained undaunted in his desire, but he kept patient, waiting for the opportunity to present itself properly. (Hall of Heroes, pp.11-12)
So it makes perfect sense that dwarven elders would have kept hush-hush about some stinkin' failed dwarf-orc hippie commune!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 16:07:57
|
Well, yeah...
I was having the most trouble with it's existance in the first place, rather then its outcome. Thats why I was trying to marry the core Sharakim fluff and the Ondonti to this new lore, in order to round the edges a bit and at least make it more FR-like.
The Sharakim were humans that were 'cursed' to be Orcs, so that is a pretty good reason why the Dwarves would have even bothered with them in the first place, and there actually is an FR precedent for something similar (in the the Maztica material, a group of natives (IIRC) were turned into Orcs as part of a curse).
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Its still better than things like the Bozeman line and naming the villages of Netheril after members of Deep Purple singer Ian Gillan's late 70's bands.
Ack! I didn't know that about Deep Purple and Netheril. 
I'm still regretting my own naming decisions in my one-and-only CK article as well. Its fairly easy to fall into the trap of putting things you like into your gaming material, unfortunately. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 16:25:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Oh, and I wish that someone with guts and gumption would tell Salvatore that "Baffenburg" is a great name for a cute, little German city, but not so good for the fantasy Realms. Why, just why, do his editors not intervene and say "Great name! Change it!".*sigh*
-- George Krashos
Baffenburg ... great name ... cute, little German city ... inhabited by orcs and dwarves. Ahem ... what?  
I wonder how that town might actually be pronounced in English. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 22 May 2009 16:26:58 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 17:24:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
So why are people suprised when he creates a town where two mortal enemies once thrived peacefully? Seems perfectly normal from RAS if you ask me.
Heck, why is Markus surprised when RAS creates a realm that was apparently . . . well . . . forgotten, and only just recently rediscovered, in a line called "Forgotten Realms"?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was having the most trouble with it's existance in the first place, rather then its outcome. Thats why I was trying to marry the core Sharakim fluff and the Ondonti to this new lore, in order to round the edges a bit and at least make it more FR-like.
I've gone 'round and 'round with RAS on the unlikelihood of Bruenor making peace with the Many-Arrows orcs in such a short time, and I feel pretty weird about this Baffenburg development, too. At least we're told that Baff took a while before peace could be attained. Maybe I would've been able to swallow the current dwarf-orc peace a little easier if we'd been told about more battles and Bruenor growing desperate to save his clan's dwindling numbers or something. But as it is, Bruenor just seems to have gone soft because his friends told him to do so.
Though it's Core and not FR, I prefer the "War to the Death" Dwarven mentality of The Complete Book of Dwarves:
quote:
Dwarves are also great warriors, well disciplined, and organized into armies that strike fear into evil monsters everywhere. Our combat skills against the filthy dark dwellers are beyond question. It is a particularly stupid goblin, pig-faced orc, or brainless hobgoblin who does not quake with fear at the sound of dwarven boots. Our battle axes have drunk deeply of the blood of such creatures, our hammers have smashed thousands of their skulls. We will continue until there are none left to kill. That is not an idle boast, it is an oath.
Yet we are a peaceful people. We do not seek war, nor do we steal from others. Those are the actions of other, less honorable races. We see to our own and those who attempt to steal that which is ours will die. That is not a threat, it is the way of the dwarf. If you do not wish to feel our wrath, leave us alone. (TCBOD, "Introduction: Balor the Hill Dwarf Introduces the Dwarves")
quote:
Dwarves do not compromise when dealing with evil races, particularly when competing with them for living space or when their welfare is threatened.
[...]
Dwarves have no doubt that they are involved in a war of massive proportions. It is known as the "War to the Death," for the dwarves have sworn to fight until their enemies are destroyed. (TCBOD, C3:)
I kept waiting for a Drizzt-&-Cutter vs. Obould, Round II, match-up, because you know that that sword should be able to rip Obie's bum armor all up to shreds now. But we're never gonna get that rematch. 
Heck, I could've even dealt with Bruenor fighting a duel to the death with Obie, and going out a hero for his traditional values and principles. "Obould Must Die!" I chanted many a time over the last couple of years. (Bruce Willis stole my other slogan, "Live Free or Die Hard", you see.)
I just chalk this Baffenburg up to the notion that it takes all kinds, in the Real World or the Forgotten Realms. The land is big enough that odd things can and do happen. Sometimes dwarves befriend orcs. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2009 : 17:33:17
|
I could be wrong, but I think it's possible Zanan might be having a little gentle fun with the etymological, philological, and anthropological origins and influences of dwarf and orc as they compare to the word Baffenburg. Kind of a "if this word upsets you, then how about these" kind of a thing.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Baffenburg ... great name ... cute, little German city ... inhabited by orcs and dwarves. Ahem ... what?
I wonder how that town might actually be pronounced in English.
My German's not so great, but a quick Google suggests that "baff" is an adjective which means, "flabbergasted." The city of the flabbergasted? Not so bad name for a place where orcs and dwarves supposedly lived together in peace.
|
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
|
|
|
Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 06:08:23
|
RF:Good lady I never meant to imply that Obould was a gentlemen and scholar, only that he's not like his kin in how he sees the future of his people. By all rights Obould is still an evil creature.
Beast: Drizzt vs Obould part II(before he became an Exarch) wouldn't be as exciting as the first simply because Obould no longer has the Glassteel armor. True it will be a tough battle but in the end Drizzt would win because he is simply a better fighter. |
|
|
|
Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 06:25:19
|
| I just want to add that IMO Baffenburg had to be created as a precedent for the creation of The Silver Marches. What I mean is that it is far more acceptable for dwarven and human kingdoms to make peace with an Orcish kingdom if it was shown to have worked before. It would have less backlash among the citizens of all the kingdoms. Above all most sentient creatures desire peace. Of course theres individuals who have fought against the treaty of Garumns Gorge but I believe that the number is significantly less than it would have been if Baffenburg wasnt discovered |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 08:06:02
|
| The idea of forming the Silver Marches (originally called Luruar) quite predated the idea of an orc kingdom. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 08:32:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Beast: Drizzt vs Obould part II(before he became an Exarch) wouldn't be as exciting as the first simply because Obould no longer has the Glassteel armor. True it will be a tough battle but in the end Drizzt would win because he is simply a better fighter.
I know it wouldn't be as exciting. But that's not why I wanted to see it.
It would be justice. It would be what Obould deserved. It would spare me the jarring sense of "Ooh, that's just not right" that I've been experiencing since the first suggestion of peace with the orcs in TOK.
BTW, I believe it was black armor (probably adamantite), and he still has it. The glassteel was only for the eyepiece/goggles in the helmet. I think he dumped that, but he definitely kept the armor (TOK, P3:C17, P4:C31, etc.).
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
it is far more acceptable for dwarven and human kingdoms to make peace with an Orcish kingdom if it was shown to have worked before.
But it didn't really work. It was an experiment, and then it failed. Everybody just left the place and went away. If dwarf-orc peace were such a success, then you'd think it would have been maintained and perpetuated. It wasn't. (Think Jamestown, or Roanoke.)
Reminds me of those scientists who claimed to have created cold fusion at room temperature, but could never repeat it for anyone else's observation, and couldn't really explain by what mechanism they supposedly had done it in the first place.
quote:
Above all most sentient creatures desire peace. Of course theres individuals who have fought against the treaty of Garumns Gorge but I believe that the number is significantly less than it would have been if Baffenburg wasnt discovered
But Regis's and Nanfoodle's research fell on deaf ears where Bruenor was concerned (TOK, P4:C23). Bruenor wasn't impressed by the Baffenburg news. He still wanted to whack Obould, with good cause.
It was Drizzt's repeated begging for Bruenor to give peace a chance, propped up by the testimony of a suspicious drow (Tos'un), combined with actually seeing Obould fighting with Grguch, that finally changed Bruenor's mind (TOK, P4:C30).
That was the only individual whose opinion ultimately mattered, and this Baffenburg business didn't seem to have any bearing on his opinion.
Maybe this Baffenburg business was only included in there to try to get us to accept the idea of dwarf-orc peace.
It didn't work, for me. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 23 May 2009 08:35:48 |
|
|
|
Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 09:31:01
|
Wooly: Forgive me I was under the impression(Strictly from reading Drizzt novels) that the Silver Marches didn't form until after the treaty was signed. So it was there before then?
Beast: True Obould deserves a great deal of repayment for the evil he has caused. But from my knowledge he did help bring peace(albiet through harsher and more evil than i personally cared for) to two mortal enemies. On the armor issue, I thought the armor was given to him by the priestess of Lolth? Wasn't(sorry don't have the instantanous recall of certain pages of certain books as you seem to do, I picture you with a mad scientist shaped head because of the ability you seem to have recalling knowledge of Drizzt;)) it in the final battle with Obould and Drizzt that Obould's armour turned on him? The conversation afterwards went something like this:
Obould" Treachery!"
Drizzt," You speak to me of treachery when it is you who wears armor that my blades cannot penetrate!"
Obould thinks and smiles " I wear none now" and beckons Drizzt to continue.
of course I'm paraphrasing :)
So maybe he got new armor, I havent read TOK in about a year and half. I'll check it out again.
But my final thought is this if fans can accept the other changes that RAS has put forward (Drizzt, Njoljem(?spell) , Artemis,) Then Obould (is he truely any different than Artemis) and the peace between to races such as Orc's and Dwarves shouldn't be to difficult to stomach. :) |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 10:23:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Wooly: Forgive me I was under the impression(Strictly from reading Drizzt novels) that the Silver Marches didn't form until after the treaty was signed. So it was there before then?
Alustriel began her efforts to establish the alliance of northern settlements that would eventually become Luruar [Silver Marches in 3e] in 1369 DR. There's an entire section in the "Silverymoon" entry of The North boxed set that explains this. The alliance itself was formalised in 1371 DR.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 10:50:00
|
Regarding my comment above ... I was a) aiming some "banterous" flak at the poster linking orcs and dwarves to Germans ... or rather a German town (though the name is obviously German, of course). And b ) "Baff" is indeed something like "flabbergasted" or "baffled", while -burg is the German(ic) ending for castle, e.g. Edinburgh would be a good English (nae Scottish!) equivalent. Of course, these days we speak of Edinburgh castle when looking at the building, though one can easily imagine that the place and city as such was named after the original castle.
So if translated directly, Baffenburg would be called "Castle of the Baffled" in English ... but as it always is with placenames, it ain't that easy. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 23 May 2009 10:52:15 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 14:51:04
|
@Zanan - we have MANY places here in the US that have the suffix 'berg' (or burg), and in every case the origin of the place-name came from German settlers, hence the pre-disposition of Americans to think of anything ending that way as a 'german town'.
You try living in a country where everyplace has either a German, English, French, Spanish, or American-Indian name. This place has less consistency then 4eFR.
Silver Marches:
IIRC, didn't the founding of Mithral Hall (or rather, re-founding) precipitate the Silver Marches Pact? Thats how I rememebered it, but it's been awhile since I read those early RAS novels. That agreement was itself a copy of the Lord's Alliance going on along the Swordcoast (which I think Silverymoon is also part of, IIRC).
Orcs:
Although I'm a big fan of Orcs getting their own kingdom (being a fan of other settings like GH and Mystara), it was a bit rushed. Eberron went the "orcs as Druids" route that WoW uses, so I certainly don't want to see another version of that. I like the way Obould's Kingdom is shaping up, but it did happen all too quickly. I was looking forward to the Dwarven Kingdom being attacked by those Orogs and their followers, and Obould 'coming to the rescue' of the Dwarves (which actually would have been self-serving, in order to rid himself of that rival). I think the story would have worked better that way, but what do I know? I'm not a best-selling author.
Some History:
Although Obould was never the best-of-neighbors, we have to remember his time in the north was far greater then this recent war, and he did have his own 'kingdom' already in the past. In fact, he is actually a bit justified in his war, because he was basically 'at peace' with the other northern powers when he controlled Citadel Many-Arrows, and was actually repulsing an Orc Horde when the Dwarves snuck into the keep behind him and re-took it (which they had abandoned and given to humans centuries earlier - making the Dwarven reclamation theft).
So those sneaky Dwarves were ignoring that Orc Horde that threatened the entire North, leaving Obould alone to fight it off (and thereby protect the rest of the North). He was doing the human (and Dwarven) settlements in the area a huge favor, and thats how he was repaid.
I'd be pretty pissed too. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2009 05:04:47 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 14:52:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
But my final thought is this if fans can accept the other changes that RAS has put forward (Drizzt, Njoljem(?spell) , Artemis,) Then Obould (is he truely any different than Artemis) and the peace between to races such as Orc's and Dwarves shouldn't be to difficult to stomach. :)
Drizzt and Nojheim were individuals who were outcasts from their own culture. Artemis was an outcast individual who was finding his way back into his society. None of these individuals -- even all three taken together -- make the idea of two ancient enemies getting along and living together a plausible one. Especially when those two enemies have fought for thousands of years, one of them is known for stubbornness, and the other one only coexists with other races in a subjugator/subjugatee manner. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 15:01:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs:
Although I'm a big fan of Orcs getting their own kingdom (being a fan of other settings like GH and Mystara), it was a bit rushed. Eberron went the "orcs as Druids" route that WoW uses, so I certainly don't want to see another version of that. I like the way Obould's Kingdom is shaping up, but it did happen all too quickly. I was looking forward to the Dwarven Kingdom beng attacked by those Orogs and their followers, and Obould 'coming to the rescue' of the Dwarves (which actually would have been self-serving, in order to rid himself of that rival). I think the story would have worked better that way, but what do I know? I'm not a best-selling author.
That's my problem with it: it simply happened too fast. I don't think that generations of belief -- reinforced by racial deities! -- that other races are there to be raped, pillaged, and/or eaten can be overcome in such a short time. I think it should take centuries for that to happen.
Even Dukagsh didn't try to turn his society into something entirely different -- he simply redirected existing racial tendencies, and built a framework around them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 18:15:25
|
| Wooly: It's plausible because RAS is known for going against the norm. So i used those characters as an example. Bruenor isn't like his kin because of his closest friends and Obould isnt like his kin because of his vision. Again if a single good goblin and a single good drow can be found among predominately evil races then surely a dwarf can turn out not to be as stubborn or an orc can make peace with dwarves and humans. Nothing should be set in stone as far as racial stereotypes are concerned especially in RAS writing.:) |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 19:44:03
|
Plausible for a writer is not plausible for a setting.
Racial stereotypes exist in fantasy settings because 99.9999% percent of the members of a given race will follow the same patterns as the other members of that race. You might as well say that since we've got two good drow from Menzoberranzan, the elves and the drow will make peace with each other.
There is a huge difference between a single individual going against his society, and an entire society deciding to go against that which has been their racial standard for millenia. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 May 2009 19:47:33 |
|
|
|
BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2009 : 23:53:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Regarding my comment above ... I was a) aiming some "banterous" flak at the poster linking orcs and dwarves to Germans ... or rather a German town (though the name is obviously German, of course). And b ) "Baff" is indeed something like "flabbergasted" or "baffled", while -burg is the German(ic) ending for castle, e.g. Edinburgh would be a good English (nae Scottish!) equivalent. Of course, these days we speak of Edinburgh castle when looking at the building, though one can easily imagine that the place and city as such was named after the original castle.
So if translated directly, Baffenburg would be called "Castle of the Baffled" in English ... but as it always is with placenames, it ain't that easy.
But "Burgh" is a Gaelification of the Saxon "Borough", meaning town, not castle. It was the seat of Edwin, a King of Northumberland, hence Čidean's Burgh = Edwin's Borough....
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Baffenburg?
