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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2009 : 02:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Beast: True Obould deserves a great deal of repayment for the evil he has caused. But from my knowledge he did help bring peace(albiet through harsher and more evil than i personally cared for) to two mortal enemies.
Then I guess Bruenor should give him a kiss.
Right before he gives him his axe. 
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On the armor issue, I thought the armor was given to him by the priestess of Lolth?
I was under that impression, too. But I have been unable to confirm that by skimming through the books, again.
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(sorry don't have the instantanous recall of certain pages of certain books as you seem to do, I picture you with a mad scientist shaped head because of the ability you seem to have recalling knowledge of Drizzt;))
I wish it was instant recall.
Actually, it's mostly lots and lots of notes.
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Wasn't [...] it in the final battle with Obould and Drizzt that Obould's armour turned on him?
Aye. Donnia Soldou passed on spider brooches to be applied to the straps on his armor, which fell to pieces on him in the fight. He left the scattered bits of plate behind at the end of TTS.
But just as someone (Tos'un) was able to find the sword Cutter in the wreckage later on, that armor stuck around to be collected, as well.
quote:
So maybe he got new armor, I havent read TOK in about a year and half. I'll check it out again.
In TOK, we're told that his armor had been patched back together. He still has it years later in TPK.
So not only did the dwarves sign a peace treaty with him, but they also let him get his sweet gear back, too. 
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But my final thought is this if fans can accept the other changes that RAS has put forward (Drizzt, Njoljem(?spell) , Artemis,) Then Obould (is he truely any different than Artemis) and the peace between to races such as Orc's and Dwarves shouldn't be to difficult to stomach. :)
Drizzt's turn to the light side was right and noble. Nojheim was a freakish accident. Entreri's change was the result of magical meddling.
But Obould doesn't deserve to be befriended. I can accept that he has some scatterbrained ideas of peace with goodly peoples. (Frankly, that's the only kind of abstract ideas that I can see an orc being capable of, in the first place: scatterbrained.) But he doesn't deserve to have goodly folks ally themselves with him. He's only earned execution.
I consider the goodly folks of Silver Marches to now be accomplices-after-the-fact.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 05:21:31
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But as I stated above, all this crap with Obould started long-ago, when those sneaky Felbarr dwarves snuck into Obould's Citadel while Obould was fighting-off an Orc Horde.
Obould was fine living in his Citadel. Some of his followers raided human caravans and settlements that encroached too closely to their lands (something Elves do all the time, yet no-one gives them any flak!), but on the whole, Citadel Many-Arrows did NOT make war on any of the powers of the North, and in fact, helped 'keep the peace' within his domain.
He did not start this war - the Dwarves did, when they decided to take-back a Citadel they had given away centuries earlier (which means they had no rights to it).
Obould had always tried to build a Kingdom by peaceful means, and when he wasn't allowed to do the same thing every other intelligent race is, he took matters into his own hands.
Look at lands like Zhentil Keep and Thay - where Orcs are enslaved by humans. Orcs are NEVER given the same simple decency that other races give each other, even though a race like the Elves has just as much history of killing humans, if not moreso. Its a canon fact that everywhere that Orcs were treated decently, they behaved in kind (Vassa, Amn, Chessenta, Thesk, etc, etc...). I think if I was an Orc, I'd be ready to show to some humans, Dwarves, and Elves that I demand respect, and it was about damn time I got some.
Even their origin-stories speak volumes about Orcish attitudes - they were denied from the very beginning that which all others were entitled to.
In the words of one of my all-time favorite FR NPCs, general Vrakk - "They treat us like monsters, so we BE monsters!" Oh yeah... and he was given a medal by King Azoun... some 'lowly Orc', eh?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2009 15:18:43 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 05:50:33
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I couldn't agree more, Markustay... and the newest PC in the campaign I'm playing in (as opposed to the one I'm still preparing to run) is an orc paladin. My PC is a Jotunbrud Uthgardt barbarian whose home village was destroyed by orcs (who, he's just learned, were led there by his father, who was missing and presumed dead in the raid). It's been good for role-playing opportunities all around, particularly thanks to a former party member, a halfling rogue who supplied the female half-elf ranger with a less-than-accurate Orcish phrasebook before leaving the party. The laughs caused by that almost sent the player of the ranger (who is also the DM's wife) into premature labour; she has since had the baby, a healthy boy who was two weeks old yesterday and three days overdue at birth; maybe we should have laughed a bit harder.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 May 2009 05:52:20 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 08:52:54
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Why is there so much angst against peace between 2 races who were once enemies? I just can't fathom the reason.
Wooly: I understand where you are coming from as far as racial stereotypes in a setting, but sometimes the .0001% can become a start of dramatic change. Again I fail to see why a race can't change especially in a fantasy setting , because it's those type of changes that allow settings to become so much more than what the "norm" is. :) |
Edited by - Drizztsmanchild on 24 May 2009 09:11:54 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 10:02:29
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May the admins forgive this slight off-topic babble ...
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Regarding my comment above ... I was a) aiming some "banterous" flak at the poster linking orcs and dwarves to Germans ... or rather a German town (though the name is obviously German, of course). And b ) "Baff" is indeed something like "flabbergasted" or "baffled", while -burg is the German(ic) ending for castle, e.g. Edinburgh would be a good English (nae Scottish!) equivalent. Of course, these days we speak of Edinburgh castle when looking at the building, though one can easily imagine that the place and city as such was named after the original castle.
So if translated directly, Baffenburg would be called "Castle of the Baffled" in English ... but as it always is with placenames, it ain't that easy.
But "Burgh" is a Gaelification of the Saxon "Borough", meaning town, not castle. It was the seat of Edwin, a King of Northumberland, hence Èidean's Burgh = Edwin's Borough....
Nononono ... rest assured, I have studied Old English, Middle English and Scots (i.e. Anglish spoken in Scotland), as well as having lectures in Celtic Studies, especially placenames of Scotland and Ireland. Thus, I can tell you that burg, burgh, borough et all are all from Germanic roots, all essentially meaning "castle". The Celtic (i.e. Irish Gaelic or Scottish Gaelic) equivalent would be /dun/ and the Scottish Gaelic name of Edinburgh is actually Dùn Eideann (dùn = hill, fortress; aodann = slope; sometimes anglicized to Dunedin). Its British Celtic / Brythonic name would be Din Eidyn, by which name it is known in the Early Welsh (i.e. also Brythonic) poem Gododdin. Din Eidyn does indeed mean "Eidyn's fort", though very little is known about this "king". The modern (Germanic) name Edinburgh is essentially just a translation of the Brythonic one (as is the Scottish Gaelic version) dating back to the days of the Anglish conquest of this region.
And while we are at it, i.e. boroughs and burghs, the Welsh (i.e. the language that developed from Brythonic) name for "castle" is "caer" (Modern Welsh Edinburgh is Caer Eiddyn) and both, castle and caer are actually loans from Latin, i.e. "castra". To give one last example here, Caerleon, a Welsh town build at the site of a Roman legionary fortress, that of legio II Augusta, which the Romans called Isca) is the Brythonic / Welsh expands as the name "fortress of the legion" <- caer leon <- castra legionis. That would be applied to fortresses and large / castles alike, another word used in Scottish Gaelic would be dùn. For an example on that, have a look at the name of the "capital" of one of the more important British Celtic kingdoms - the Britons of Strathclyde - at Dumbarton (dùn Breataan = Fortress of the British). The Britons themselves called it "Altcluit", i.e. Rock of the Clyde.
burgh / borough
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=borough
Edinburgh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh
Dumbarton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbarton
Oh, you can trust these Wiki articles, as they are very good (for a change). |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 24 May 2009 10:07:25 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 12:16:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs:
Although I'm a big fan of Orcs getting their own kingdom (being a fan of other settings like GH and Mystara), it was a bit rushed. [...] I like the way Obould's Kingdom is shaping up, but it did happen all too quickly.
Agreed.
I maybe could've accepted it if we had been told about more angst and desperation from the dwarves themselves, rather than just from everybody who had the dwarf king's ear. The dwarves seemed perfectly happy to keep going tit-for-tat with the pigfaces, but then all of a sudden, Bruenor makes one last wisecrack to Drizzt and then capitulates. He didn't do it out of a personal sense of desperation for his clan. He did it to shut his whiny drow bud up (I guess--oh, and sorry for that descriptor). But maybe I could go along with it a little less argumentatively if I had been convinced that Bruenor had really reached his wit's end with the fighting.
I wasn't. I'm still not.
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In fact, he is actually a bit justified in his war, because he was basically 'at peace' with the other northern powers when he controlled Citadel Many-Arrows, and was actually repulsing an Orc Horde when the Dwarves snuck into the keep behind him and re-took it (which they had abandoned and given to humans centuries earlier - making the Dwarven reclamation theft).
So if he had a beef with the Felbarr dwarves, why attack the Mithral Hall clan? Why didn't he go straight back to Citadel Felbarr? How is he justified in attacking anybody else but them?
And why did the humans of Clicking Heels, Shallows, etc., have to die before he even got to the Mithral Hall dwarves?
What of Sceptrana Shouldra Stargleam? What of Pikel Bouldershoulder's missing arm? What of Tarathiel the elf? What of Nesmé?
What of Drizzt and Catti-brie's future druman/humow/whatever kids?
Cry not for Obould, markustay.
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So those sneaky Dwarves were ignoring that Orc Horde that threatened the entire North, leaving Obould alone to fight it off (and thereby protect the rest of the North).
"The enemy of my enemy . . ."
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He was doing the human (and Dwarven) settlements in the area a huge favor, and thats how he was repaid.
So when Hitler slapped the occasional Nazi party leaders and generals around, should the Allied forces have befriended Hitler for that?
Like I said, if there is some latent instinct to applaud Obould for his seemingly good actions, then give him a kiss.
And then give him the axe for his bad ones.
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Obould was fine living in his Citadel. Some of his followers raided human caravans and settlements that encroached too closely to their lands (something Elve do all the time, yet no-one gives them any flak!), but on the whole, Citadel Many-Arrows did NOT make war on any of the powers of the North, and in fact, helped 'keep the peace' within his domain.
Are you sure?
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The orcs in the citadel [...] constantly harass travelers between Silverymoon and Sundabar, even attacking caravans in sight of the cities' [that is, Silverymoon and Sundabar's] gates. (The Savage Frontier, p.29)
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Life in the overcrowded Citadel is hard. Many orc citizens are little better than starving thieves and beggars. Those who wish to better their lot are given black-bladed scimitars and told to go out and find what they can take. This is a practice that makes caravan travel between Silverymoon and Sundabar perilous indeed.
[...] Most of [...] the feast money comes from trade with other orc tribes and evil human merchants in need of weapons and armor. The Citadel produces such goods ceaselessly from metal seized from human and dwarven miners or dug out by slaves working the mines north of the Citadel. (Volo's Guide to the North, p.203)
A previous generation of orcs stole the fortress in the first place, and Obould told his followers to go forth from the Citadel and continue stealing stuff in order to keep the failing Citadel running. People were being attacked, survivors were enslaved, and goods were stolen. You call this being a good neighbor? This is keeping the peace?
Why is there no record of Obould sending emissaries to Silverymoon to parlay for a peace treaty before TOK? A series of diplomatic parties from Citadel Many Arrows--especially tragically mowed down ones--would have signified Obould's supposedly honorable character much more clearly than his train of black-blade-wielding raiding parties ever did.
And as I have said elsewhere, in light of Obould VI's lament that the people of the North give orcs far too much lenience in return for the orcs' trangressions in c. 1476 DR (TOK, Pre.), I would think that 1370s Obould's theoretical surrendering of himself to be executed for past crimes would have set an excellent example to his people of the value of the rule of law and order. But letting him off the hook would appear to have set the exact opposite example, given Obould VI's observations. In the future, the orc masses seem to think that the rules don't apply to them, and their neighboring nations seem to be willing to let the orcs maintain this belief, much to Obould VI's chagrin.
quote:
He did not start this war - the Dwarves did, when they decided to take-back a Citadel they had given away centuries earlier (which means they had no rights to it).
So why did he attack multiple puny human establishments enroute to the wrong dwarf stronghold in order to exact his revenge?
quote:
Obould had always tried to build a Kingdom by peaceful means, and when he wasn't allowed to do the same thing every other imtelligent race is, he took matters into his wn hands.
Again, are you sure? He sure didn't start if off on a peaceful foot:
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Obould [...] completed quests for his chieftain and for his tribe's clerics before slaying the chieftain and taking control of his tribe. (FRCS, 3E, p.175)
We've already seen that he ruled his kingdom with continued violence, directed at his neighbors.
And what were his plans once he was ousted by the Warcrown dwarves? More of the same:
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[... H]e trains his warriors constantly and intends to take hold of the lowlands to the south of the Spine of the World. This dreamed-of orc empire would be large enough that he could grant a piece to each of his surviving sons, and his legacy would survive. War is on the horizon in the North, led by a sharp-eyed barbarian with a sword of fire. (FRCS, 3E, p.175)
His concerns were for a large empire, familial legacy, and war--not peace.
Peace does not seem to have ever entered Obould's mind until RAS put it there in "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy". I say, "too little, too late".
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I think if I was an Orc, I'd be ready to show to some humans, Dwarves, and Elves that I demand respectand it was about damn time I got some.
Even their origin-stories speak volumes about Orcish attitudes - they were denied from the very beginning that which all others were entitled to.
Here, I admit my ignorance. I am not up on the oldschool lore from way back in the day.
Your info would seem to suggest that orc anger should more properly be directed at the gods who set all this in motion--not at their followers, who are just doing their gods' bidding.
At any rate, I think Obould should have been held to account for his actions, rather than bringing up anybody else's from any other generation, era, spacetime continuum, plane of existence, etc.
If this old divinely-originated inter-species feud is Obould's defense, then he hardly strikes me as any sort of noble or enlightened leader. He's just another barbaric orc blinded by the past into disregarding the moral value of his own actions.
Obould's grunting on borrowed time in my Realms. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 24 May 2009 12:22:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 15:17:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even their origin-stories speak volumes about Orcish attitudes - they were denied from the very beginning that which all others were entitled to.
So do they try making the best of it? Do they try to peacefully coexist, and thus share those things they were denied? Nope, they prefer to go out of their way and make everyone suffer. Even races that follow deities that didn't have anything to do with the orcish snubbing are still victims.
The orcs have never given anyone a reason to try to get along with them. I don't have any sympathy for them being the victims of attitudes they created.
I liked Vrakk and his boys, and my favorite part of Prince of Lies is when the orcs blow the bridges up. But Vrakk was not the typical orc. Orcs don't see themselves as monsters -- they see themselves as a strong, proud race, one that doesn't need the positive regard of anyone else. Vrakk was seeing himself through human eyes, not thru orc eyes. Vrakk is an odd duck among the orcs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 15:34:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Why is there so much angst against peace between 2 races who were once enemies? I just can't fathom the reason.
Because of the reasoning. If it was two mostly similar races that were only warring against each other because of some ancient slight, then it would be a different story. Instead, we have a race that is very stubborn, and that has suffered greatly at the hands of the other -- often, from unprovoked and constant hostilities. The other race is one that sees the entire world as owing them, and which has done nothing but spend their entire history warring on other races, and committing some serious atrocities against those races. Hells, Gruumsh is the main orc deity, and his dogma is to raid, kill, and conquer, taking whatever the orcs need or want. According to Monster Mythology, the orcs don't even have a word for "peace" -- their closest word is more like "temporary ceasefire".
And then, for no reason at all, we're supposed to believe that these two races suddenly set aside millenia of hatred and unfettered aggression so that they could live together? That's like believing you can put cats, mice, and small flightless birds in the same room and they'll all get along.
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
Wooly: I understand where you are coming from as far as racial stereotypes in a setting, but sometimes the .0001% can become a start of dramatic change. Again I fail to see why a race can't change especially in a fantasy setting , because it's those type of changes that allow settings to become so much more than what the "norm" is. :)
A race can change... But I don't see a race doing a collective 180, in a relatively short timeframe, especially when lead by the Chosen of a deity that is all about brutal warfare. A more likely racial change is what I referred to earlier, with Dukagsh and the scro -- he was a visionary, charismatic leader, and he didn't turn his race into something entirely new. He instead took the main strengths and tendencies of his race and built a new framework around them. He gave civilization to his followers without changing the fact that they are a bloodthirsty, warlike bunch.
Dukagsh did not change the essential nature of his people. They kicked elven butt, they didn't try to get along with them. That's a believable change. The shamans and the Chosen of a warlike, aggressive deity saying "Can't we all just get along?" -- and meaning it! -- is not a believable change. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 15:55:07
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It is not in their nature to talk first, otherwise there is absolutelty no difference between Orcs and Elves (and Sylvan Elves are known to "shoot first, ask questions later" as well).
Elves go around sundering worlds, destroying cities, and dropping entire kingdoms into the sea, and yet no-one stays mad at them. The stuff Orcs do is minor by comparison.
No... humans more easilly forgive Elves for killing millions of humans because they are 'pretty'. Orcs do not have that luxury. When a human Kingdom begins to encroach upon their lands (and it was mostly theirs, once), and they retaliate it, the Orcs are called 'monsters' and slaughtered. The simple truth is that no-one wants the "ugly brutes" living next door to them. Nobody minds when their sons come-home with an Elven lass in hand, but gods-forbid if their daughters come home with an orc for a boyfriend.
The point is, they are NOT given the same opportunities as the other races are, and lacking in any social graces, they take what they feel they are entitled to.
The Citadel was given away by the Dwarves to humans, therefore the Dwarves had NO legal right to it. If any race had an argument with the Orcs, it was the humans. What the Felbarr Dwarves did was cowardly.
And please don't point-out all the 'bad' Orcs have committed on humans. Humans have done worse to each other (Imaskar, Netheril, Thay, Zhentil keep, etc, etc). Dwarves did much the same - killing each other by the tens of thousands - during the Spawn Wars. Elves - forget about it! The crown Wars, Dark Disaster, Descent Curse, ect, ect..
No... its only when Orcs do something terrible that the entire rest of the planet bands together to admonish them. They are behaving no differently then any other territorial, tribal people, and yet THEIR LANDS are not respected.
I brought this up before, but it bears repeating - in EVERY instance when Orcs were 'let be' and allowed to go about their lives, they did so PEACEFULLY. Vassa (Palishuk), Thesk (Tammar), Amn (Purskul), Chessenta (Airspur), The Ondonti of the Tortured land... in ever instance Orcs behaved themselves when treated with rspect. That is FR canon.
Blaming the Orcs for what they do is just so wrong (and humano-centric). Were the American Indians wrong for trying to defend their lands? Were the Aztecs? The Zulus? All of those people used similar tactics as the Orcs - it would be suicidal for a technologically inferior people to confront a large force openly. In fact, I think it may have been the American Colonists that invented modern day 'Guerilla Warfare' - something used rather effectively by Drug-Cartels and Terrorists.
History is filled with violent conflicts, with one people taking the lands of others. Why are the Orcs painted as 'evil' for this? The Tuigan are now considered a nation to be dealt-with and traded with, and given all the other amenities that any intelligent species is entitled to. Did they not 'pour forth' as a Horde to decinmate civilized lands? Why does no-one believe the Tuigan need to be racially annihalted?
I'll tell you why... because Orcs are just plain ugly, and people don't like looking at them. 
And THAT is the "ugly truth". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2009 16:00:26 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 16:13:44
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At the beginning of the peace or ceasefire between Obould and Bruenor's dwarves it wasn't a walk in the park and they weren't friends. It was simply two kings who were planning for the future of their respective societies. Bruenor not adhereing to the stubborness of his race because of his friends insight, especially Drizzt and Obould not adhereing to the typical savagery and conquest of his race due to his view of the future of constant battle. Plus with the humans from surrounding kingdoms and towns willing to accept Oboulds conquests peace was the only logical solution. But it wasn't an easy peace , didn't Drizzt have to fight Obould the 2nd?
But after 100 years and completely new generations of orcs,humans, and some new blood of dwarves growing up without fighting constantly change is bound to happen.
Yet there were still tensions even after 100 yrs.
So the hatred for each other didn't stop right away only the fighting did. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 16:26:36
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Very true.
That was merely a cease-fire. Even after a hundred years tensions still ran high in the North.
Excellent point.
That was not a attitude-changing event, but rather a pivotal moment in history. Attitudes take much longer to change then brders. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 17:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It is not in their nature to talk first, otherwise there is absolutelty no difference between Orcs and Elves (and Sylvan Elves are known to "shoot first, ask questions later" as well).
Elves go around sundering worlds, destroying cities, and dropping entire kingdoms into the sea, and yet no-one stays mad at them. The stuff Orcs do is minor by comparison.
No... humans more easilly forgive Elves for killing millions of humans because they are 'pretty'. Orcs do not have that luxury. When a human Kingdom begins to encroach upon their lands (and it was mostly theirs, once), and they retaliate it, the Orcs are called 'monsters' and slaughtered. The simple truth is that no-one wants the "ugly brutes" living next door to them. Nobody minds when their sons come-home with an Elven lass in hand, but gods-forbid if their daughters come home with an orc for a boyfriend.
The point is, they are NOT given the same opportunities as the other races are, and lacking in any social graces, they take what they feel they are entitled to.
The Citadel was given away by the Dwarves to humans, therefore the Dwarves had NO legal right to it. If any race had an argument with the Orcs, it was the humans. What the Felbarr Dwarves did was cowardly.
And please don't point-out all the 'bad' Orcs have committed on humans. Humans have done worse to each other (Imaskar, Netheril, Thay, Zhentil keep, etc, etc). Dwarves did much the same - killing each other by the tens of thousands - during the Spawn Wars. Elves - forget about it! The crown Wars, Dark Disaster, Descent Curse, ect, ect..
No... its only when Orcs do something terrible that the entire rest of the planet bands together to admonish them. They are behaving no differently then any other territorial, tribal people, and yet THEIR LANDS are not respected.
I brought this up before, but it bears repeating - in EVERY instance when Orcs were 'let be' and allowed to go about their lives, they did so PEACEFULLY. Vassa (Palishuk), Thesk (Tammar), Amn (Purskul), Chessenta (Airspur), The Ondonti of the Tortured land... in ever instance Orcs behaved themselves when treated with rspect. That is FR canon.
Blaming the Orcs for what they do is just so wrong (and humano-centric). Were the American Indians wrong for trying to defend their lands? Were the Aztecs? The Zulus? All of those people used similar tactics as the Orcs - it would be suicidal for a technologically inferior people to confront a large force openly. In fact, I think it may have been the American Colonists that invented modern day 'Guerilla Warfare' - something used rather effectively by Drug-Cartels and Terrorists.
History is filled with violent conflicts, with one people taking the lands of others. Why are the Orcs painted as 'evil' for this? The Tuigan are now considered a nation to be dealt-with and traded with, and given all the other amenities that any intelligent species is entitled to. Did they not 'pour forth' as a Horde to decinmate civilized lands? Why does no-one believe the Tuigan need to be racially annihalted?
I'll tell you why... because Orcs are just plain ugly, and people don't like looking at them.
And THAT is the "ugly truth".
You're ignoring the fact that there are countless examples in Realmslore of races not having anything at all to do with orcs, and yet the orcs still go out of their way to kill them. These orcs were let be and allowed to go about their lives... And their response was to go looking for others to raid, kill, and pillage.
And yeah, other races have done the same thing... But no other race has done this on a nearly universal scale. Sure, some elves have killed humans. A lot of elves have happily coexisted with humans. And yeah, many humans have launched unprovoked assaults on others -- but again, many humans have happily gotten along with everyone around them.
On the other hand, other than a few isolated examples, almost every orc in the history of the Realms has been a bloodthirsty git who was happy to attack anyone who might be conceivably weaker than themselves, even if their victims had never had any interaction whatsoever with them.
A few civilized orcs here and there don't make them a race of victims. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 17:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
At the beginning of the peace or ceasefire between Obould and Bruenor's dwarves it wasn't a walk in the park and they weren't friends. It was simply two kings who were planning for the future of their respective societies. Bruenor not adhereing to the stubborness of his race because of his friends insight, especially Drizzt and Obould not adhereing to the typical savagery and conquest of his race due to his view of the future of constant battle. Plus with the humans from surrounding kingdoms and towns willing to accept Oboulds conquests peace was the only logical solution. But it wasn't an easy peace , didn't Drizzt have to fight Obould the 2nd?
But after 100 years and completely new generations of orcs,humans, and some new blood of dwarves growing up without fighting constantly change is bound to happen.
Yet there were still tensions even after 100 yrs.
So the hatred for each other didn't stop right away only the fighting did.
A hundred years to a dwarf is about 15 years to a human. Way too quick to forget millenia of warfare. And it doesn't matter if humans are willing to forget -- the orcs follow deities that tell them not to live at peace!
Two kings can plan for their people's future without doing something utterly unprecedented in history and utterly implausible, given past lore.
If a group of orcs was geographically isolated from anyone else, and then, after centuries of living apart and in a somewhat civilized manner made peaceful contact with another race, then I could buy it.
Orcs conquering by force, led by the Chosen of an aggressive and warlike deity, saying "Okay, now that we've stolen this land, we're going to be good neighbors" just doesn't work. And especially when they say that to the kin of people they slaughtered so that they could steal that land -- yeah, kill my brother, steal his house, and then make nice. Yeah, I'll be your friend then.  |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 17:30:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the other hand, other than a few isolated examples, almost every orc in the history of the Realms has been a bloodthirsty git who was happy to attack anyone who might be conceivably weaker than themselves, even if their victims had never had any interaction whatsoever with them.
A few civilized orcs here and there don't make them a race of victims.
I'm having trouble distinguishing Wooly's orcs from RW Western "civilization" (from the time of Constantine (Roman emperor, 4th century CE) to the mid-20th century). Apart from the arts, we've done very little to be proud of as a species, and I include technology in this. Every technological advancement we've made has been motivated by the desire to kill our neighbours more effectively. My study of RW history has led me to conclude that misanthropy is the only truly unbiased form of benevolence. Am I being too harsh on our species? Maybe, but better than than not critical enough, I say. Imho, Obould's orcs are actually a step above RW humanity, regardless of appearances and collective racial history.
In short, as I already stated above, I agree with Markustay *and* Wooly. Thank you, Wooly, for making Markus' point better than I could earlier. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 May 2009 18:17:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 17:50:17
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| Truly, I should like to keep real world stuff out of this... It's not really relevant (though superficially similar, in some cases), and real world discussions can get ugly. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 18:10:36
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Done.
Edit: And I agree about the ugly... although most orcs are still uglier. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 May 2009 18:12:23 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 18:25:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<snip>
Racial stereotypes exist in fantasy settings because 99.9999% percent of the members of a given race will follow the same patterns as the other members of that race. You might as well say that since we've got two good drow from Menzoberranzan, the elves and the drow will make peace with each other.
<snip>
And this is why the drow are now monotheistic again, instead of having a pantheon with some variety to it. Of course, most non-human races are now monotheistic in 4E, with humans as the sole race with a "full" pantheon. (And I use the word "full" *very* loosely.) Stereotypes made 1E flat by comparison with 3E (and even, to a lesser extent, 2E) and they're (part of) what make 4E flat again. However, I will confess that the drow of 1E and 4E seem much more evil than the drow of 2E and 3E... and I won't speculate further as to why. 
Edit: We now return you to your regularly-scheduled debate over the morals of orcs that began as a comment on incongruous place names. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 May 2009 18:28:31 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 19:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
May the admins forgive this slight off-topic babble ...
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Regarding my comment above ... I was a) aiming some "banterous" flak at the poster linking orcs and dwarves to Germans ... or rather a German town (though the name is obviously German, of course). And b ) "Baff" is indeed something like "flabbergasted" or "baffled", while -burg is the German(ic) ending for castle, e.g. Edinburgh would be a good English (nae Scottish!) equivalent. Of course, these days we speak of Edinburgh castle when looking at the building, though one can easily imagine that the place and city as such was named after the original castle.
So if translated directly, Baffenburg would be called "Castle of the Baffled" in English ... but as it always is with placenames, it ain't that easy.
But "Burgh" is a Gaelification of the Saxon "Borough", meaning town, not castle. It was the seat of Edwin, a King of Northumberland, hence Èidean's Burgh = Edwin's Borough....
Nononono ... rest assured, I have studied Old English, Middle English and Scots (i.e. Anglish spoken in Scotland), as well as having lectures in Celtic Studies, especially placenames of Scotland and Ireland. Thus, I can tell you that burg, burgh, borough et all are all from Germanic roots, all essentially meaning "castle". The Celtic (i.e. Irish Gaelic or Scottish Gaelic) equivalent would be /dun/ and the Scottish Gaelic name of Edinburgh is actually Dùn Eideann (dùn = hill, fortress; aodann = slope; sometimes anglicized to Dunedin). Its British Celtic / Brythonic name would be Din Eidyn, by which name it is known in the Early Welsh (i.e. also Brythonic) poem Gododdin. Din Eidyn does indeed mean "Eidyn's fort", though very little is known about this "king". The modern (Germanic) name Edinburgh is essentially just a translation of the Brythonic one (as is the Scottish Gaelic version) dating back to the days of the Anglish conquest of this region.
And while we are at it, i.e. boroughs and burghs, the Welsh (i.e. the language that developed from Brythonic) name for "castle" is "caer" (Modern Welsh Edinburgh is Caer Eiddyn) and both, castle and caer are actually loans from Latin, i.e. "castra". To give one last example here, Caerleon, a Welsh town build at the site of a Roman legionary fortress, that of legio II Augusta, which the Romans called Isca) is the Brythonic / Welsh expands as the name "fortress of the legion" <- caer leon <- castra legionis. That would be applied to fortresses and large / castles alike, another word used in Scottish Gaelic would be dùn. For an example on that, have a look at the name of the "capital" of one of the more important British Celtic kingdoms - the Britons of Strathclyde - at Dumbarton (dùn Breataan = Fortress of the British). The Britons themselves called it "Altcluit", i.e. Rock of the Clyde.
Ok, ok; "Fortified Town of the Baffled." Happy? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 19:50:28
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In one of the first three Elmimster novels (I read all three as The Annotated Elminster, so please don't ask me to remember specifically which one  ), Elminster is confronted with a 'baby-eating' Orc, and knows that such a thing is not real - merely a popular misconception of them - THAT by Ed Greenwood himself (El knew Orcs were not as bad as portrayed). He managed to see-through the illusion for what it was, because he knew that such a thing was ridiculous.
In that same trilogy, in the annotations, Ed states "Elves ARE monsters".
It fairly obvious, to me at any rate, in which direction Ed's feelings lie.
And I ask once again, why are the Tuigan so readily accepted, yet Orcs are not? AFAIK, no Orc Horde was truly continent-spanning in nature.
I'm not arguing that Orcs are not violent, or rude, or even ugly, all I'm saying is that they are NEVER given the same consideration as other races, EVER. In every case, when human (or Dwarven, or even Elven) empires expanded into orc-held lands, the Orcs were hunted-down as monsters. At no point in FR's history has any of the major races even tried to deal with the orcs as equals. They got lumped-in with the Owlbears and Displacer Beasts and all the other 'monsters' living on the frontier.
Last time I checked, killing an intelligent, speaking creature was considered murder in the RW... and yet, its okay in FR, so long as the creature in question is a Goblinoid.
Even if it was doing nothing more then hunting down some food for it's family. Remember those Orcs in The Orc King, who simply went out for some firewood for their homes, and Bruenor and company cut them down before they even knew they were being attacked? Their was nothing at all 'heroic' or 'goodly' about Bruenor's actions there.
Orcs ARE brutal... but then again.. so is everybody else. The difference is that orcs are never forgiven their sins. Are sharks evil? Or Crocodiles? Do we hunt them to extinction? And they can't even talk....
Edit: HOWEVER, I do agree 100% with Wooly that it happened WAY too fast, and that their are other non-RW factors such as gods involved that change the ethno-cultural landscape significantly.
But Orcs ARE considered heroes in Thesk, ya know. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2009 19:57:43 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 20:28:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Ok, ok; "Fortified Town of the Baffled." Happy?
Well, I have to put some of the stuff I studied to some good use!
"Fortified Town of the Baffled" sounds about right. Alas, we speak of orcs (what sort of castles and fortress do they build? ) with a touch of dwarven "flair" |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 20:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs ARE brutal... but then again.. so is everybody else. The difference is that orcs are never forgiven their sins. Are sharks evil? Or Crocodiles? Do we hunt them to extinction? And they can't even talk....
Yeah but forgiven orcs are likely to despise you for the weakness of being able to forgive, and then kill you. Slight difference.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 23:17:23
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Its like I always tell people in RL -
"I fogive... but I NEVER forget..."
Shake hands with an Orc... but keep your other hand on your sword. I gave four examples of regions where Orcs were given respect, and responded in kind. Hell, Orcs even fought along side Dwarves in the Tuigan Crusade, so even that's nothing new.
Trusting an Orc, and not exterminating them on sight are two very different things. People lock their doors at night to keep their fellow humans out, so I wouldn't expect any less mistrust for the Orcs. Its also far more likely in the North (and elsewhere) for caravans to be set-upon by bandits, and the Uthgradt Barbarians of the same region are no better then the Orc tribes when it comes to raiding and brutality. All I'm saying is give them same benefit of the doubt you would accord your fellow humans... who are just as likely to have evil intentions, in most cases.
Maybe the reason why Orcs attack on sight is because others do the same to them, and they've learned that talking usually gets you an arrow in your throat for your troubles. Also, what are adventurers? Guys who break into Orcish and other monster's homes and steal their stuff! In most cases, the humanoids get slaughtered in their lairs! I just don't get this attitude that breaking and entering, and murder, are acceptable if the thing you are robbing and killing is 'ugly'.
As for trusting fellow humans more, if you were stuck between a group of Zhentish soldiers and a tribe of Orcs, you'd probably stand a better chance of survival joining the Orcs. Orcs don't take human slaves, AFAIK. They do enslave their fellow Goblinoids, however... which makes them even more like humans then any of us should feel comfortable with.
And it wasn't all that long ago (a couple millenia, at most) when the Elves thought of humans and Orcs the exact same way.
BTW, the Orcs vs Dwarves wasn't the only stereotype broken in that novel - that Drow (not Drizzt) sided with the surface Elves, because he thought it was an afront that 'lowly Orcs' were killing his fellow Elves! Even when it comes to an enmity as strong as that one, they will stand side-by-side to slaughter Orcs.
Don't hate the Orcs, pity them, for "there but for the grace of god go I". Orcs are nothing more then VERY ugly, primitive humans. Just don't let them know you feel pity, otherwise you'll get an axe across your neck. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 May 2009 23:23:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2009 : 00:12:49
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You can forgive without being stupid.
Besides, no-one really forgets... people just say that...
Unless you have some sort of mind-eraser in your back pocket.
And I still maintain that Orcs are no more evil then any other race... they just have really bad PR. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 May 2009 00:14:01 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2009 : 15:43:20
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I think alot of the perceptions of orcs in the Realms has much to do with classic stereotypes as anything. Maurauding orcs as an encounter has been a staple since Tolkien first wrote the Hobbit! Let alone since Chainmail and co.
Personally, I've alway viewed them in the same light as the Uthgardt, primitive and savage, but just as ready to trade or talk as to attack.
I haven't read any RAS after Hunters Blades so won't comment here on specifics. I will say I'm NOT suprised at the idea of a peace accord between the Orcs (especially ones lead by a strong leader) and another race. But I am suprised at a deal between the Orcs and Shield Dwarves. I think both parties would find it incredibly hard to set aside millenia of emnity, even moreso when both sides have very real personal grudges. |
Edited by - BlackAce on 25 May 2009 15:44:08 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 04:18:15
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Here's my take of Obould and his god. It's pretty simple if Obould wasn't following his god's wishes or if his god didn't approve of his choices he would have simply removed the blessings he gave him and would not have made him an exarch(I'm assuming it's the same Obould). Perhaps Obould didn't see it as peace with dwarves but merely as the stopping of needless sacrificing of Orcs. Something his god would have approved of as before 4e his power was based on how many worshippers he had. Pragmagtism(?) is a belief/code/trait that evil creatures especially adhere to. Plus losing tens of thousands of worshippers in an ongoing war wouldn't sit well with any god or goddess now evil or not. Well maybe Asmodeus since he would just go back to being a uber powerful archdevil. So again the cease-fire if you will was still a logical idea.
And isn't a 100 yrs roughly a 3rd of a dwarf's life span. I mentioned that because it was the younger dwarves that I was talking about when I meant a new generation of dwarves(young when the treaty was signed ) |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 06:10:35
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I am still in the midst of reading TOK at the moment so I cannot comment too much. But overall I tend to agree with Markustay's take on orcs and their treatment. There has been some mention of the 'evil' of the golblinoid pantheon and such, but much of the human pantheon is also dedicated to evil and raping, looting, and general banditry is not orc exclusive .
And while I am not up on the post century 4E Realms all that much, given the global levels of destruction and chaos that has ensued from the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague (both of which seems to have been initiated by the evil 'human' deities) it would seem to me that the non-human races might start looking quite negatively at humanity  , particulary any kingdom or society that openly continued veneration of such deities. Without followers these 'evil' divine troublemakers would have much less power and it seems to me that with that kind of attitude many would go the way of the Cult of the Dragon. |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 07:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Without followers these 'evil' divine troublemakers would have much less power and it seems to me that with that kind of attitude many would go the way of the Cult of the Dragon.
The Cult is still going strong in 4E. And among other bits of oddness, they're actively recruiting dragonborn, who are for some reason joining a group that basically worships the same critters dragonborn have a racial hatred of.  |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 09:32:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No... humans more easilly forgive Elves for killing millions of humans because they are 'pretty'.
That is reason to hate elves.
It is not reason to defend orcs.
It's funny, but I just re-read RAS's short story "Dark Mirror", and Nojheim the goodly goblin actually defended the humans' cruel treatment of him in part because of his ugly appearance. But he also acknowledged the ugly behavior of most of his goblin-kin, too.
Too bad Obould hasn't met the same fate as noble Nojheim. Would if their fates could be exchanged.
quote:
The point is, they are NOT given the same opportunities as the other races are, and lacking in any social graces, they take what they feel they are entitled to.
And yet, by requesting peace with the other races, Obould has envisioned a social relationship with them. Therefore, that lack of social graces should hardly be disregarded so sweepingly. It matters--especially if we are to seriously consider someone who is requesting to be allowed into society. But he comes to Silverymoon, et al, with bloody hands.
[Snip RW political analogy.]
If a guy rapes and kills your child, are you gonna let him into your house and sleep in your kid's bed, eat her food, wear her clothes?
I can understand orcs being angry, and I can kinda understand that they think they have a basis for being hellions of the Realms.
What I don't understand is how anyone can think of Obould as a good guy worthy of a treaty. The most recent wounds that he caused still haven't even healed, IMO.
quote:
The Citadel was given away by the Dwarves to humans, therefore the Dwarves had NO legal right to it. If any race had an argument with the Orcs, it was the humans. What the Felbarr Dwarves did was cowardly.
Again, that might be reason to hate dwarves.
But it is hardly reason to defend orcs.
At any rate, it is irrelevant. Because even though the dwarves gave the Citadel away to the humans, nobody gave it away to the orcs. They stole it. When the dwarves took it back, the orcs were in possession of stolen property.
If you steal something, and then somebody else steals it from you, you're not really in a position to file a police report and expect them to hop on it in your defense and to return it to you. You're not in a position to rightfully expect anyone's sympathy at all, thief.
The Felbarr dwarves also freed the human and other slaves that the orcs had working in the Citadel mines. That is not cowardly. It was cowardly for the orcs to take those people as slaves in the first place.
At any rate, you still haven't answered why Clicking Heels, Shallows, and Mithral Hall needed to be attacked when Obould really had a beef with the Felbarr dwarves. I steadfastly believe in revenge, but not when it is haphazardly directed at the wrong target. Covering your eyes with one hand and then swinging the other wildly about in circles to hit the first person in reach is hardly honorable, estimable, sympathizable behavior.
quote:
And please don't point-out all the 'bad' Orcs have committed on humans. Humans have done worse to each other (Imaskar, Netheril, Thay, Zhentil keep, etc, etc). Dwarves did much the same - killing each other by the tens of thousands - during the Spawn Wars. Elves - forget about it! The crown Wars, Dark Disaster, Descent Curse, ect, ect..
I didn't point out all the bad that orcs have done.
I pointed out the bad that these particular orcs had done, in response to your claim that Obould had only acted to keep the peace within his kingdom. Pointing out all the bad that other races have done does not exonerate Obould of the bad that he has done. It does not wash the fresh blood from his hands that he still bore when he requested peace with the other races, either.
quote:
No... its only when Orcs do something terrible that the entire rest of the planet bands together to admonish them. They are behaving no differently then any other territorial, tribal people, and yet THEIR LANDS are not respected.
When did the people of Clicking Heels, Shallows, or Mithral Hall go up into the Spine of the World mountains and steal land from the orcs that would eventually come to be known as Clan Many-Arrows?
We definitely know when Many-Arrows pillaged those lands, but what about the other way around? Obould himself never even implicated them in having perpetrated any specific acts of wrongdoing.
Notice also that the orcs have this chip on their shoulder about people somehow disrespecting their land, but the orcs couldn't even run Citadel Many Arrows efficiently. It was crumbling right underneath their feet, so they had to take from other people in order to even struggle to keep the city going at all. The orcs don't even respect themselves or their would-be own land enough to learn how to run it effectively.
quote:
I brought this up before, but it bears repeating - in EVERY instance when Orcs were 'let be' and allowed to go about their lives, they did so PEACEFULLY. Vassa (Palishuk), Thesk (Tammar), Amn (Purskul), Chessenta (Airspur), The Ondonti of the Tortured land... in ever instance Orcs behaved themselves when treated with rspect. That is FR canon.
I disagree. According to Volo's Guide to the North, p.203; and The North, "The Wilderness", p.61; the Ice Mountain orcs (from whence the Many Arrows orcs originated) began attacking the Silverymoon human contingent the very first day that the humans moved into the Citadel. The dwarves had been living there, and then handed it off to the humans, and that's when the orcs saw an opportunity to strike: during the hand-off, when things were in disarray. The orcs didn't go about their lives peacefully. They didn't behave themselves.
To use an analogy: If you steal my warpig, and you keep my warpig as stolen property, you are not going about your life peacefully, and you are not behaving yourself. The act of knowingly and intentionally being in possession of stolen property is at the very least a property crime, in direct continuation of the crime of violence by which that property was wrongfully seized in the first place.
And then, as I showed above, with that stolen property in their possession, the Many Arrows orcs continued their antisocial, violent ways for the next 300 years, attacking humans even right outside the gates of Sundabar and Silverymoon for their gear and their usefulness as slave labor--this, to work mines that the dwarves had already deemed spent.
Until somebody kicked the orcs' porcine posteriors.
The orcs stole a busted-up Citadel, and then harassed their neighbors to continue stealing whatever they had of value because the Citadel was so busted-up.
To go back to my warpig metaphor: it's as if you stole my ornery, half-lame warpig, and then kidnapped a local pigherder in order to try to heal the pig, and then stole his herbs and ointments, and then wayleighed a caravan to steal weaps and building supplies to use as armor for whenever the pig got to feeling better down the road. And then you felt ripped when somebody else stole that pimped-out warpig right out from under your nose.
This is not going about one's life peacefully. This is not behaving oneself. It's victimizing, and then playing the victim.
quote:
Blaming the Orcs for what they do is just so wrong (and humano-centric).
Not at all.
I am simply pointing out that your characterization of the Many Arrows orcs and Obould as just keeping the peace within his kingdom, going along peacefully, behaving himself, etc., is not borne out by the facts.
Bringing up other wrongs by other peoples only serves to obfuscate the fact that Obould has done wrong--not right, as you have alleged.
And that wrong stares out much more blaringly to me than the little change of heart he did in the eleventh hour.
quote:
History is filled with violent conflicts, with one people taking the lands of others. Why are the Orcs painted as 'evil' for this?
Well, I am painting the Many Arrows orcs as evil because they wiped out two weak human towns and layed seige on Mithral Hall, when they supposedly really had a beef with a totally different community: Citadel Felbarr. This is evil. It's not goodly.
And it didn't deserve any kind of peace treaty, in any shape, form, or fashion, whatsoever.
And it isn't ancient history, either. This isn't dredging up old news from centuries ago. Obould's worse crimes happened just one year before he asked for the treaty.
I only brought up the other stuff in response to your claim that Obould had never been that bad of a guy. The reality is that he has shown a pattern of vile acts, as has his tribe/kingdom. And it sickens me that the goodly folks of the North turned a blind eye to all of that. Perhaps some viable explanation might've been possible at some point, but the one that was given seemed too rushed. It struck me as woefully unjust and irresponsible. What's the point of the Silver Marches, if justice is so summarily dismissed? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 26 May 2009 09:48:17 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2009 : 10:41:14
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| It's still viable even if it was rushed if you will. How long before TOK was there talk @ Wotc about implementing 4e? Maybe RAS was asked to rush the peace between the two enemies? |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
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Posted - 26 May 2009 : 10:51:13
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| Also I don't believe anyone believes(posters or Npc's) Obould never deserved justice for the crimes he committed, but the cost would've been far greater to try to bring him to justice than to just accept the cease-fire and so Bruenor and the other Dwarf leaders swallowed their pride and accepted it(like the humans did in The two swords) with much encouraging from Drizzt who also saw the road where the constant battle would lead them. |
Edited by - Drizztsmanchild on 26 May 2009 10:54:50 |
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Baffenburg?
