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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
 Posted - 13 May 2009 : 18:32:14
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Topic deleted!
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Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 14 May 2009 09:17:02
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 20:12:27
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| I like it! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:03:07
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| How does the level of devotion figure in? For example, does having fewer zealous believers come out the same as having a greater number of casual believers? |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How does the level of devotion figure in? For example, does having fewer zealous believers come out the same as having a greater number of casual believers?
That makes sense- let's say a lay-worshipper (someone w/ no ranks in a divine class or PrC, but who works exclusively for the Church) counts as 1.5 worshippers, a Ranger, Paladin, Divine Champion, Divine Seeker, or Arcane Devotee counts as 2, and a Cleric or Druid counts as 2.5. So to be a DR 1 power, you'd need 1,000 'casual' worshippers, 665 lay-worshippers, 500 Pal/Rgr/etc, or 400 cleric/druids... or (obviously) some combination thereof. It makes sense that the powers would gain more from the adulation of a 'full-time' worshipper than from one who only prays when their kids are sick, or the calves are about to be born, or whatever.
Good idea, Kiaransalyn- I'll be stealing this!  |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How does the level of devotion figure in? For example, does having fewer zealous believers come out the same as having a greater number of casual believers?
I haven't specifically dealt with that issue. However, I think I've covered it by talking about worshippers instead. Worshippers will vary in their levels of devotion but will all still worship and perform that act in the belief that the deity can do something about it (that doesn't mean the deity will.)
Worshippers will worship evil deities to appease them (and ward off bad things happening) and good deities to attract their attention (and encourage good things to happen.)
If I've recalled correctly, I think the section in the FRCS (3rd Edn) discusses fishermen worshipping Umberlee as an act of appeasement.
Of course: many of the evil Fearunian powers (namely Talona, Talos, Umberlee, Beshaba, Mask, and others who don't spring to mind, as I am AFB  ) are MOSTLY worshipped by those wishing to avert their displeasure. The number of actual lay or clergy for (say) Talona, I would imagine is rather low- but most common folk make offerings to her out of fear. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:36:03
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I have to disagree. I don't think there should be a difference between casual/lay believers and zealous believers.
Zealous believers don't have more 'worshiping potential', but are more instrumental in gathering new worshipers to their god/dess. To address Knight's weighted scale, a casual believer is a single worshiper from life to death. Likewise, a zealous believer is a single worshiper for their entire life as well. However, the zealous believer spends most of their life showing and talking about how their god/dess is the best and creates more worshipers from the general populace. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:37:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How does the level of devotion figure in? For example, does having fewer zealous believers come out the same as having a greater number of casual believers?
I haven't specifically dealt with that issue. However, I think I've covered it by talking about worshippers instead. Worshippers will vary in their levels of devotion but will all still worship and perform that act in the belief that the deity can do something about it (that doesn't mean the deity will.)
Worshippers will worship evil deities to appease them (and ward off bad things happening) and good deities to attract their attention (and encourage good things to happen.)
If I've recalled correctly, I think the section in the FRCS (3rd Edn) discusses fishermen worshipping Umberlee as an act of appeasement.
That's true... But does appeasement count the same as actual worship? There's a difference between saying "Okay, you're cool, now please leave me alone" and "Oh, wowsers! You are the shiznit!"
And you also get cases like the drow, where some worship Lolth out of faith, some worship her purely out of ambition, and some worship her as a way to keep breathing. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:39:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I have to disagree. I don't think there should be a difference between casual/lay believers and zealous believers.
Zealous believers don't have more 'worshiping potential', but are more instrumental in gathering new worshipers to their god/dess. To address Knight's weighted scale, a casual believer is a single worshiper from life to death. Likewise, a zealous believer is a single worshiper for their entire life as well. However, the zealous believer spends most of their life showing and talking about how their god/dess is the best and creates more worshipers from the general populace.
So praying to someone when it seems prudent, and tossing them the occasional offering -- and doing the same for other deities -- is the same as devoting yourself entirely to the service of one deity? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 21:54:37
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I think of Neil Gaiman's excellent American Gods, in which Odin talks about how every worshipper gives power to the gods in various forms- prayers are good, rites are better and sacrifices are best, and that the value of the 'Soma' from each worshipper varies dependant on the quality and fervor of the worshipper in question.
It just makes no sense to me that (in this 'deific calculus' we're proposing) a guy who says 'Hey, Talona, here's a chicken... could you, ya know, not slaughter my family with the pox? Cause I'd have to stop bringin' ya chickens if ya did. Amen' is the same as a guy who infects his village with anthrax so they have to go to her for help. I understand, Ashe, that you're saying that the second fellow is valuable for bringing her worshippers, but I think he's doubly important- he's bringing her worshippers, AND he promotes her portfolio (disease) AND he does it all knowingly and at risk to himself- that level of commitment is IMO just worth more- his fervor is head-and-shoulders above the average lay-worshipper. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 13 May 2009 21:56:12 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 22:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I have to disagree. I don't think there should be a difference between casual/lay believers and zealous believers.
Zealous believers don't have more 'worshiping potential', but are more instrumental in gathering new worshipers to their god/dess. To address Knight's weighted scale, a casual believer is a single worshiper from life to death. Likewise, a zealous believer is a single worshiper for their entire life as well. However, the zealous believer spends most of their life showing and talking about how their god/dess is the best and creates more worshipers from the general populace.
So praying to someone when it seems prudent, and tossing them the occasional offering -- and doing the same for other deities -- is the same as devoting yourself entirely to the service of one deity?
Hmmm... good point.
I'd say that every worshiper is worth '1 worship point'. But by giving occasional offerings to different god/desses, they dilute their point (i.e. divide it by X where X is the god/desses they spread their faith around to). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 00:38:32
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I've a slight problem with the "... as a deity increases in status they have attract increasingly more worshippers to increase their power" aspect of your system, Kiaransalyn. It doesn't exactly match with what we known of worship from Ed or the Realmslore.
Ed has said that 'Mystra is the most powerful deity of the Faerūnian pantheon, by virtue of the fact that Toril is so overwhelmingly governed, sourced, and powered by magic.' There's no question that worship is only part of what determines a god's power, since the order of most-worshipped gods isn't the same list as most-powerful. Just look at Waukeen, Shar and the other evil deities, Horus-Re, Lolth, and the elemental lords.
Ed doesn't talk much about the inner workings of the gods, about angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin theology which no mortal knows for sure and DMs don't need to know either. The question of what constitutes worship is also largely moot because people tend to pray in proportion to their concerns and activities. For instance, almost all mages deliberately worship Mystra, and probably more than half give her primary devotion, including those of evil alignments, such as Manshoon. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 04:05:51
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Great chart - I have something similar, and also incorporate ZoCs (Zones of Control).
For 'worship points', or 'deity juice', or whatever you call it (Elan?), I do something like this -
Normal:
Level of worshipper = number of automatic WPs per day (double for priests)
+1 point every time god is thought about.
+2 points every time the god's name is mentioned.
+1 for every act performed that falls under a god's portfolio
+100 each time Holy Relic presented (must be to new group each time)
+500 each time Holy Relic's powers invoked
Acts of worship:
+5 points for every prayer uttered by a layperson
+3 Wps x (priestly level +1) for each prayer given by a priest
+20 for each death consecrated in the god's honor.
+20 for each person converted this day
x1½ for all above if performed at a shrine to the deity
x3 for all above if performed at a church/temple to the deity
x5 for all above if performed at a Major Cathedral (usually one per deity)
Apply to all above:
x2 on holy days
x3 on High Holy Days (usually only one per year per god)
Thats a real basic outline, and not really feasable to use IG - more of a reference to how much different things are worth to a god (energy-wise). I figure gods are receiving millions of 'WPs' (worship Points) every single day, but they also must expend a great deal maintaining their Avatars (and DvR), performing 'miracles', manifesting, granting spells (a major power-drain), promoting their portfolios, etc, etc...
When a person is sacrificed to a god, the god receives that person's level x 365 (one year's worth) of Wps. If it is a willing sacrifice (by a follower), the god recieves (level x 365) x (average life expectancy of the person sacrificed - actual age) {goes by race}. What that means is a god can get an enormous boost in power from sacrificing his own followers, and could possibly even raise his DvR temporarily if enough sacrifices are made, but he/she loses out on any possible levels that person may have eventually achieved (and thus providing them with much more power in the long run).
Like I said, most of this I've come up with just as a mental excercise to help me better understand how energy is recived and used by gods, and doesn't really effect game play.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 May 2009 15:06:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 05:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's true... But does appeasement count the same as actual worship? There's a difference between saying "Okay, you're cool, now please leave me alone" and "Oh, wowsers! You are the shiznit!"
I would like to argue that there is a clearly a difference in the passion of the two statements but in both the worshipper (sub-)consciously identifies the deity as a deity. That's what I mean by worship. For example, you may not want to believe in Bane, you may wish he had never returned yet somehow, deep down you know he is a god. You may from time to time give donations to his faith to keep on his good side even though you hate everything he represents.
A fervent worshipper may go to far greater extremes but that doesn't mean their belief is any greater.
Devotion and worship could be seen as two different things. (Of course, you could add devotional factors, as per Knight's suggestion). Then again a devoted cleric is likely to increase his or her deity's worship by leading services.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And you also get cases like the drow, where some worship Lolth out of faith, some worship her purely out of ambition, and some worship her as a way to keep breathing.
But how many would actually say "Nah, she ain't real mate?" (Assuming there are Cockney drow.)
We worship because we believe there is a higher power (benign spirits, etc) who can help us.
As a final thought maybe the level of devotion is linked to the deity's level of response.
Chucking a chicken in the sea and saying "There you are Umberlee, now don't sink my boat." is, of course, different to saying "Oh mighty goddess of the waves look kindly on me, stay thy wrath and accept my humble offering." Both worshippers are performing an act of worship but one is being more devoted. Obviously, Umberlee (or any other deity) will know just how much meaning they are actually giving to the prayer/ritual.
Well, if believing in the existence of a deity is the same as worship, then all gods in a given pantheon should have the same divine rank. Because if everyone knows that all of them are real, and if the amount of devotion is immaterial, then there is nothing to set any one deity above any other. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2009 : 15:09:35
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Hmph. 
I didn't even get a chance to copy that chart (I like charts). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Divine Rank Calculator Suggestion
