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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2009 : 11:52:43
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| Stories and dreams are human -- without them we couldn't live or deal with the complexities of the world (it's the people who don't fight imaginary monsters you want to be careful of). Leaving out romantic love or any other major aspect of life from stories would be, exactly, perverse. Using roleplaying rather than a more passive medium is statistically and thus culturally unusual, but not odd in human terms. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 05:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Come now, we can all appreciate the fact that we like to play with little imaginary men fighting imaginary monsters and that makes us a little bit weird. Now, when we add the fact that we like to act out imaginary relationships with imaginary people that are more complex than relationships we'd put up with in the real world, weeellll, let's just say that I think that noise is Freud rolling around in his grave shouting 'What did you say that tree looked like?'.
I say this without any real shame, though. The cognizant status with which I view my oddity does not bring with it any desire to change it or any regrets over its existence. But it would be a base misrepresentation to deny it entirely.
Ahaha, I definitely get what you're saying. Nothing wrong with being a bit weird, eh?
I also get what you're saying, Erik -- an entire novel about the love lives of albino blacksmiths in Low Netheril, while certainly heart-rending for albino blacksmiths in this crystal sphere ( ), likely wouldn't be particularly interesting for most FR readers. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 15:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
I also get what you're saying, Erik -- an entire novel about the love lives of albino blacksmiths in Low Netheril, while certainly heart-rending for albino blacksmiths in this crystal sphere (), likely wouldn't be particularly interesting for most FR readers.
Hmm, better scratch that off the list of potential pitches, then! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2009 : 16:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
I also get what you're saying, Erik -- an entire novel about the love lives of albino blacksmiths in Low Netheril, while certainly heart-rending for albino blacksmiths in this crystal sphere (), likely wouldn't be particularly interesting for most FR readers.
Hmm, better scratch that off the list of potential pitches, then!
Cheers
Unless it in some way included on of them being whacked on the head with Stormbringer of course |
Edited by - Jorkens on 25 Sep 2009 16:09:04 |
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Mr. Coyote
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 19:12:00
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1d10
1 Hair (bald or oily and dirty ect.)
2 Facial Hair (somthing race inappropriate.)
3 Facial Feature (scared, broken nose, ect.)
4 Expression (maak, drunken, naive, ect.)
5 Clothes (you get the idea.)
6 Bearing
7 Speech
8 Arms and Hands
9 Torso
10 Leg and feet
Nobodys Perfect |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2009 : 19:34:41
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Nice, Mr. Coyote.
You could always step up to 1d12 and add:
11: Respiratory issues (sniffles, snores like miter saw, sneezes like hyena, etc.)
12: Digestive issues (stomach rumbles at inopportune times, uncontrollable flatulence, etc.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 13:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Are we talking about romance novels? Because if anyone wants to make a lot of money writing, romance is the way to go.
Well, yes and no.
Yes, romance novels collectively outsell any other genre, and yes, some of the most popular romance writers do very well indeed. But for a more accurate picture of what romance writers earn, here's one of the best resources on the web, last updated July 2008:
http://www.brendahiatt.com/id2.html
Trust me, advances have not increased significantly in the past 14 months. I often read that the median advance on royalties is around $5000, which is about what it was when I started writing professionally nearly 20 years ago. And keep in mind that most books do not "earn out." This means that the total royalty (which is usually a percentage of the cover price) the writer earns does not equal, much less exceed, the advance.
Over the past 28 years, an average of 27 Nora Roberts books were sold EVERY MINUTE. But that is no more indicative of the average romance writer's income than J.K. Rowlings is of fantasy writers. There are rare exceptions in every genre, but the hard fact is that over 95% of published writers need another source of revenue to make ends meet. Romance writers are no exception.
If you like romance, write it. If you don't, you're better off writing something you love. A lack of passion for the genre is likely to come through on the (unpublished) page.
$.02,
ec |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 12 Oct 2009 14:06:20 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 13:44:57
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An additional thought about the concept of too many good-looking characters. I've written quite a few of them--they're expected--but in general I prefer not to dwell overmuch on appearance. Turning the coin over, I don't particularly enjoy reading repeated reminders that a character's appearance is no more than average. If someone is scarred or downright ugly, too much emphasis on this fact comes across as just as beauty-obsessed as the slender but shapely woman who pauses in the midst of a battle to smooth a lock of her long, luxurious red hair away from her sparkling emerald eyes.
My fingers hurt just from typing that last sentence.  |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 12 Oct 2009 13:47:25 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 16:55:05
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Good point about the romance writing, Elaine!
Earning good money from writing is an elusive thing, one that takes lots of dedication, patience, and a fair streak of good luck.
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
If someone is scarred or downright ugly, too much emphasis on this fact comes across as just as beauty-obsessed as the slender but shapely woman who pauses in the midst of a battle to smooth a lock of her long, luxurious red hair away from her sparkling emerald eyes.
This is an excellent point!
I think the use of a character who is noticeably ugly is, by default, purposeful (i.e., you expect your fantasy characters to be at least moderately attractive), and should be used sparingly and for a particular purpose. A recent character I wrote comes to mind, who went from being very attractive to being disfigured, which I did very purposefully to develop a certain aspect to his character. (Also plan to do more, if I get to write more about that guy.)
quote:
My fingers hurt just from typing that last sentence.
Too right!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 21:26:31
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| There is at least one flimsy rationalization for us FR writers having a lot of attractive characters. Our subject matter pretty much obliges us to write about mighty warriors, nimble cat burglars, hardy rangers, and such. Obviously, such characters are physically fit, and there's a correlation between being in goof shape and looking good. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2009 : 22:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
There is at least one flimsy rationalization for us FR writers having a lot of attractive characters. Our subject matter pretty much obliges us to write about mighty warriors, nimble cat burglars, hardy rangers, and such. Obviously, such characters are physically fit, and there's a correlation between being in goof shape and looking good.
Dorn wasn't a good-looking protagonist (at least that's my recollection) although he *was* physically fit and a mighty warrior. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 02:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
There is at least one flimsy rationalization for us FR writers having a lot of attractive characters. Our subject matter pretty much obliges us to write about mighty warriors, nimble cat burglars, hardy rangers, and such. Obviously, such characters are physically fit, and there's a correlation between being in goof shape and looking good.
Dorn wasn't a good-looking protagonist (at least that's my recollection) although he *was* physically fit and a mighty warrior.
True! Part of what made Dorn stand out *was* his ugliness.
Also Dorn was very attractive to at least *one* very significant (and cool) character. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 03:10:23
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| Dorn was ugly, and Aoth Fezim is no beauty, either, so plainly, in my work, the correlation between being attractive and being fit is not 100%. It's not 100% in real life, either, but it does exist. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2009 : 22:26:52
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| I will be monitoring the next several novels by the authors in this thread. I am looking for fat, overweight protagonists. There should be good humor inserted where a dashing/fit character would overcome a burden and the main character cannot :D |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 02:12:10
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Heh. I WISH Wizards would unearth some of Ed's original Mirt short stories. That's what they were all about, Matt: wheezing, aging, overweight main character who just can't do the heroics anymore, in stories that are laced with humour. 
love,
THO |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 03:07:50
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| Strangely, as soon as Matt brought up "fat, overweight protagonists," I started thinking about what tales Ed could tell us about Mirt. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 14 Oct 2009 03:08:39 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 16:14:08
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Mirt for sure!
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I am looking for fat, overweight protagonists. There should be good humor inserted where a dashing/fit character would overcome a burden and the main character cannot :D
And conversely, where a fat, good humored protagonist can accomplish the task but a fit, dashing hero cannot.
This isn't a Realms novel, obviously, but Stackpole's series of books--overall name escapes me, but Fortress Draconis is the first of the actual trilogy, and the Dark Glory War is the prequel--has (amongst others) a very overweight wizard hero. By the end, he burns up most of his actual fat, but is left with copious folds of skin as if he'd been through liposuction. Again, in his case, his appearance is extremely important to his character development.
An idea that just occurred to me--not saying there's anything to it, just something to try on for thinking: perhaps, to an extent, fantasy as a genre just doesn't directly deal much with that theme--appearance and the pressure to fit in. We're maybe more interested in dealing with larger-scale struggles like racism, good vs. evil, that sort of thing. Not to say that personal appearance as connected to socialization and self-worth isn't a worthy theme--it just tends to be glossed over in fantasy and dealt with in more serious terms in other genres. (It's maybe sort of more of a YA-appropriate theme.)
Can folks think of instances in fantasy that deal primarily with the pressures of personal appearance and fitting into one's social group?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 16:29:56
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| You speak of The DragonCrown War Cycle, a name I've always thought was a bit awkward... But since Stackpole is one of my fave authors, I can forgive this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 17:09:54
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Careful, Wooly, your Davion-proclivities are showing.
...
I read Stackpole's DCWC books some time ago. They never really grabbed me all that much. Maybe because I've just been so used to his BattleTech fiction, that I've never actually enjoyed reading anything else he's written. It's curious.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 18:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Careful, Wooly, your Davion-proclivities are showing.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. What's wrong with favoring the Davions, the single best faction that could ever exist? At least they're not as bad as those Cappie waste-cases...
...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I read Stackpole's DCWC books some time ago. They never really grabbed me all that much. Maybe because I've just been so used to his BattleTech fiction, that I've never actually enjoyed reading anything else he's written. It's curious.
I've not read all of his stuff, but the stuff I have read, I've quite enjoyed. I really thought that the masked society discussed in the Dark Glory War was an intriguing one, and one I'd like to see again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 19:33:36
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This is probably a bit off topic, but at one point in Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe series, Wolfe runs afoul of a criminal mastermind. Essentially, his Moriarity. The only way to bring the villain down is to infiltrate his organization. So Wolfe disappears and spends months shedding his many excess pounds, with the result that nobody recognizes him when it's time to bore from within.
Actually, Erik, I can think of a few fantasy stories that at least touch on the theme of an odd or undesirable appearance and its effect on social opportunity and one's feelings of self-worth. But I think you're right: it's more common for writers in our genre to link this to issues of racism and xenophobia that to deal with it as an idea unto itself. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 23:43:06
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Mmm, well said, RLB. One of the charms about fantasy is that it often glosses over the small and personal and goes for the epic in scope. Drizzt isn't worried about a few excess pounds--he deals with overcoming the unflinching racial prejudice from everyone he meets. And both are about acceptance--it's just a matter of what symbol your book uses.
And when it comes to fantasy, why worry about pimples or love handles when you can deal with societal racism or the personification of evil?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 14 Oct 2009 23:43:46 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 09:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Actually, Erik, I can think of a few fantasy stories that at least touch on the theme of an odd or undesirable appearance and its effect on social opportunity and one's feelings of self-worth. But I think you're right: it's more common for writers in our genre to link this to issues of racism and xenophobia that to deal with it as an idea unto itself.
I have a feeling that stories focusing on the psychological fears and angst, resulting from the looks and self image of the character in question and the search for a power of sorts to ease these worries, were more common in older fantastic short stories? I am thinking Poe, Ashton-Smith, Lovecraft etc. Of course, these could at times also result in more speculative ideas on ugliness and evil. I seem to remember there being, in modern fantastic stories not tied to the medieval tradition of Sword & Sorcery or the early English writers, several writers who focus more on these themes? Then especially in short story form.
This is one of the occasions I would (again) wish for a photographic memory, I know I have read examples of this, but for the life of me I cant remmember the titles. |
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too many good looking characters
