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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 09:26:09
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i know its fantasy.i know its escapist.but if theres one little problem i have with the average realms novel its the sheer number of characters who are described as being stunningly beautiful.it seems as every time a new character comes into the story[especially if there good guys]the women have perfect skin,teeth,hair,ample bosom.that last one must pee off female readers.and the men are always described as being a cross between brad pitt and HHH.good looking and huge muscles.for once it would be nice to see some leading good guys who were a bit more normal.
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go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 10:01:04
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| yeah, even if they're covered in scum they tend to be the 'diamond in the rough' type. Being the last book I read, Master of Chains is a good example, where attractive farmer man has stunningly attractive farmer wife, they must spend a fair amount of their harvest on beauty products. Granted the book was horribly written so its not suprising it suffered from Conan Syndrome. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 11:34:33
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty...the men are always described as being a cross between brad pitt and HHH...
I usually picture the characters with MY muscles...which is no where near HHH but still...  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 15:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
i know its fantasy.i know its escapist.but if theres one little problem i have with the average realms novel its the sheer number of characters who are described as being stunningly beautiful.it seems as every time a new character comes into the story[especially if there good guys]the women have perfect skin,teeth,hair,ample bosom.that last one must pee off female readers.
I have to say, that doesn't really bother me. Partly because I'm pretty in real life.
I agree that characters that aren't described as stunningly beautiful are refreshing (Narnra from Elminster's Daughter is one). It is true that people in general apparently love stories in all types of media that have attractive main characters. That said, I think it's best when authors don't overdo it when describing how handsome or beautiful the main character is. It can come off as, well, weird.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyr
Being the last book I read, Master of Chains is a good example, where attractive farmer man has stunningly attractive farmer wife, they must spend a fair amount of their harvest on beauty products.
Heh. To be fair, though, attractiveness starts with genetics, which doesn't know class/career boundries. Being poor doesn't mean you can't be attractive. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Apr 2009 16:10:22 |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 15:44:35
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Swifty, had the same thoughts too!
Usually applies especially to female characters. Male characters tend to be described with less physical details.
I prefer characters as Cale, Riven, etc who are more credible in their roles which do not comply with "The toughness of life and my character class does not affect my face and my body! Even in a dungeon I put my cucumber mask on at night, but sometimes them nasty kobolds sneak up and eat 'em while I am sleeping! Bad for the smoothness of my skin! Harrrh"  |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 15:45:36
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| It was very cool that the main character in Faces of Deception was hideous and worshipped Sune! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 15:56:42
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The whole "everyone is beautiful" thing in fiction is why three of the four Lords of Waterdeep I wrote up aren't so pretty... One was a looker (but not a babe), back in the day, but now that she's a forty-ish mother, the youthful blossom is gone. And another was a fifty-ish man. I actually based his physique (short, older warrior) on a character published in another setting, but part of why I liked the idea is because he wasn't tall, dashing, and still a young man. The third had a simply unremarkable appearance.
The only one that was young and pretty, the werecat priestess of Selūne, was written that way because I wanted her to fill the role of someone young and pretty. I think a lot of characters are pretty by default, but with Terielle, I specifically wanted her to be pretty -- she's partially inspired by Kyriani, so she had to be pretty. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 16:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
i know its fantasy.i know its escapist.but if theres one little problem i have with the average realms novel its the sheer number of characters who are described as being stunningly beautiful.it seems as every time a new character comes into the story[especially if there good guys]the women have perfect skin,teeth,hair,ample bosom.that last one must pee off female readers.
I have to say, that doesn't really bother me. Partly because I'm pretty in real life.
I am in the same situation. With my dashing good looks and winning smile I just feel like I am reading about myself.
The thing that does bother me a bit is the age thing. Generally middle aged characters are a bit more interesting. And the women better looking. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 16:37:31
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| I've got some homely to downright ugly protagonists, notably Aoth Fezim in the Thay trilogy and Dorn Graybrook in the dragon books. And while I admit that my female leads tend to be attractive, they don't all look like supermodels. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 16:57:11
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To be fair, Richard, the protagonists are still prettier than the antagonists.
But, that's what happens when you spend a lot of time with Necromancy. It just ain't pretty.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 17:00:35
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In my experience (as a reader and writer), the majority of readers (not all!) find it much, much easier to sympathize with characters they find moderately to highly attractive. If readers are reading fantasy for escape (and that's one of the big things about the genre), then they want to read about characters they want to be, or at least befriend, and generally people's fantasy versions of themselves are attractive.
Authors have to do a lot more work making a character who is supposed to be ugly intriguing--and it's not that we're not willing or able to do that (look at Martin's books for numerous examples), it can be a sinkhole of word count and distract from the action. If you spot a character who's described as "ugly" then you assume s/he is a) unimportant or b) the focus of the story, and as a fantasy writer, that's a serious thing you have to deal with in your story (RLB's Dorn is a great example, as his perceived ugliness is central to his personality and motivation).
It's generally more efficient to gloss over that and just assume most of your characters are "ok" or "above average." (It's like watching a movie--if someone isn't pretty, that person stands out.)
It's important not to make *all* your characters gorgeous, however, because that way when the heroes come across someone who's supposed to be stunningly beautiful, you lose believeability.
And of course, these are *fantasy* books--where we have graceful/beautiful elves running around with silver-haired near-goddesses slinging world-reaving spells and looking fine doing it--and too much realism can push a lot of readers out of the story.
It's a fine line to walk.
Myself, I don't picture any of my characters being extremely attractive unless it's part of the plot, and just because one character really digs another doesn't necessarily mean they're both attention-consuming hotties . . . unless you (as the reader) want them to be. Think Asson and Taslin in DoM: a withered old man and his middle-aged elf lover. They look good to each other, and that's enough.
I'd rather leave the details of appearance up to my readers--if a character is attractive, I'd prefer it be because of their other characteristics (not just physical beauty but rather personality, actions, bad-ass factor, etc). This probably comes from where I am as a reader: when I was a kid, I used to ignore passages downgrading a character's attractiveness, just picturing them how I wanted in my head, which--as a kid--meant extremely hot (heck, I still do that, though not as extremely).
This is my primary appearance aesthetic: let the reader decide. In DoM, when Twilight is described, she isn't necessarily beautiful, but something about her is very memorable. That's the point--she's supposed to be charismatic and attractive, but what she looks like is up to you.
Is the ghostwalker sexy or ugly sexy? Up to you.
I will confess that Downshadow is replete with hotties, but many of the supposedly gorgeous women who run around are noblewomen (heavily made-up and comfortable lived), high priestesses or celebrants of Sune, or use magic to enhance their appearance (notably Fayne). For most of the lower-class main characters, I left it generally up to the reader to fill in how attractive they are. If you want them to be hot, they are--if you want them to be plain, you've got it.
It's your fantasy--make it what you want it to be.
Cheers
P.S. Come to think of it, my antagonists tend to be prettier than my protagonists. I'm thinking of Dharan and Meris Greyt in GW and Rath, Fayne, and Fayne's patron in DS. I use it as a "darkness behind a pretty face" device.
But I wonder if beauty intimidates me in some way?
I certainly treat my wife with a fair amount of deference and respect--that's for sure. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 15 Apr 2009 19:34:29 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 17:14:14
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I'm reminded of the various discussions of hero/villains and how they appearance helps identify them from the movie 'Unbreakable'. It's only after the end that you realize that in every shot/scene, M. Night set up Bruce Willis in the good lighting, showed his chiseled good features and never dressed him outlandishly or slovenly. And the opposite was true for Sam Jackson.
Although in today's age, we want our heroes to have some flaws (either physical, mental or social) to make them more 'everyman'. Even when villains are painted as 'pretty' (as in Erik's examples), it usually means their 'inner self' is even uglier than normal. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 18:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I've got some homely to downright ugly protagonists, notably Aoth Fezim in the Thay trilogy and Dorn Graybrook in the dragon books. And while I admit that my female leads tend to be attractive, they don't all look like supermodels.
Hey, I was just thinking about them!
I think a good mixture in the group makes the difference.
Actually I do not always resent good looking characters. Their physics just have to match somehow with their background.
A tough fighter or thief or assasin may look very attractive, but certainly events will have left their marks on faces, be it only some lines/wrinkles that make the character appear even more attractive because they provide more charisma than the smooth featurless model type...
It is a matter of credibility and how you define being beautiful. I always associate it with "smooth and perfect" which does not fit for a hardened fighter while for example a basically beautiful fighter whose story has left marks on his/her face (not necesarily scars) goes by "charismatic/attractive" for me.
Personal perception and interpretation issue...
Hey and I think it is great to have authors here sharing their views on that topic! Apparently it is something that has to be considered each time one writes a book.
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
Edited by - skychrome on 15 Apr 2009 18:28:58 |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 19:12:51
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| one other thing that irked me was certain characters in their middle years not looking a day over 30.and thats without the aid of magic. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 19:29:49
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Well, that phenomenon is rare but not unknown even in our world, where magic isn't a question. My own parents have consistently looked 10-15 years younger than they really are, and there's no magic about that.
The appearance of age is a matter of good genetics, exercise, and moisturizing. Realms nobles could easily get away with those things--in fact, staying pretty/young-looking is sort of a lordling/lordlass's job. Even common folk could look young far into middle-age, particularly if they eat right and stay active (and a bit of the blood of Azoun can't hurt, right?).
Plus, in the Realms, folk might not be aided by magic of their own, but who's to say they aren't blessed by one deity or another? Or have a touch of elven heritage to extend their lifespan/youth (I assume we're talking about humans, here)?
Cheers
P.S. None of that's to contradict your point that having everyone look a couple decades younger is distracting or irksome--I'm just showing how it's possible for a few folk to be like that. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 15 Apr 2009 19:31:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 20:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, that phenomenon is rare but not unknown even in our world, where magic isn't a question. My own parents have consistently looked 10-15 years younger than they really are, and there's no magic about that.
The appearance of age is a matter of good genetics, exercise, and moisturizing. Realms nobles could easily get away with those things--in fact, staying pretty/young-looking is sort of a lordling/lordlass's job. Even common folk could look young far into middle-age, particularly if they eat right and stay active (and a bit of the blood of Azoun can't hurt, right?).
Plus, in the Realms, folk might not be aided by magic of their own, but who's to say they aren't blessed by one deity or another? Or have a touch of elven heritage to extend their lifespan/youth (I assume we're talking about humans, here)?
Cheers
P.S. None of that's to contradict your point that having everyone look a couple decades younger is distracting or irksome--I'm just showing how it's possible for a few folk to be like that.
Indeed. Dick Clark has been around for several centuries, and still isn't really aging that much.
On a more serious note, I've been getting carded on alcoholic drinks since I was 21... and I'm 35 now. I have had coworkers think I wasn't of drinking age... Once, when working in a restaurant, I had a female coworker assume I was still in high school, like her -- and I was already in my mid-20's, then! Hells, I once had someone who knew me in high school think I was younger than her by a few years! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Apr 2009 20:05:09 |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 20:33:58
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| you wouldnt have a problem in england.the off licences serve 15 year olds over here.us brits have a serious drink problem. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 23:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I've got some homely to downright ugly protagonists, notably Aoth Fezim in the Thay trilogy and Dorn Graybrook in the dragon books. And while I admit that my female leads tend to be attractive, they don't all look like supermodels.
Ah, but Richard, Dorn doesn't *need* good looks -- he has that cool Half-Golem template that will attract all female fighters!
(Dorn is actually one of my favorite FR characters, because I love to play strong warrior types with tragic backgrounds  )
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2009 : 23:37:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
i know its fantasy.i know its escapist.but if theres one little problem i have with the average realms novel its the sheer number of characters who are described as being stunningly beautiful.it seems as every time a new character comes into the story[especially if there good guys]the women have perfect skin,teeth,hair,ample bosom.that last one must pee off female readers.
I have to say, that doesn't really bother me. Partly because I'm pretty in real life.
I am in the same situation. With my dashing good looks and winning smile I just feel like I am reading about myself.
The thing that does bother me a bit is the age thing. Generally middle aged characters are a bit more interesting. And the women better looking.
You, Jorkens? Aren't you always complaining about how chilly it is in the 'Keep, tripping on your beard, and claiming that your back is killing you?
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 10:05:34
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I solved that problem, I now sport a huge horseshoe moustache instead. Time to put my plans of impersonating Fzoul into action. Somewhere in the Zentharim there should be a person capable of curing that backache don't you think?
The again; I will probably not get out of the archives for quite some time. Someone has wrinkled the scrolls with Eds notes on Sharess. I have my suspects but I will keep them for myself for the moment as it never hurts to save some knowledge to a later date. I can see those dancing girls in my future. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 11:56:20
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| Thanks for that very informative explanation Erik. Everything makes more sense when it comes from your keyboard |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 14:53:56
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| Reading about this kind of reminds me about another set of boards where the members had a member picture page. Is there anything like that contained herein? Just curious, as I'm not suggesting that we add one if there isn't already one present. |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 14:55:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Thanks for that very informative explanation Erik. Everything makes more sense when it comes from your keyboard
Woah, serious compliment there.
I want to note that's just *my* perspective on the issue--I'm sure other writers do it way differently.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 15:14:58
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| Erik, any truth to the rumor (that I am now starting) that at least one of your characters "hotness" was in fact inspired by the true beauty of Rin?? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2009 : 16:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Erik, any truth to the rumor (that I am now starting) that at least one of your characters "hotness" was in fact inspired by the true beauty of Rin??
I can neither confirm nor deny.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 17:04:28
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
i know its fantasy.i know its escapist.but if theres one little problem i have with the average realms novel its the sheer number of characters who are described as being stunningly beautiful.
Being Scandinavian I've never really seen this as particularly escapist |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 18:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Erik, any truth to the rumor (that I am now starting) that at least one of your characters "hotness" was in fact inspired by the true beauty of Rin??
I can neither confirm nor deny.
Cheers
Then I'll confirm. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 20:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Erik, any truth to the rumor (that I am now starting) that at least one of your characters "hotness" was in fact inspired by the true beauty of Rin??
I can neither confirm nor deny.
Cheers
Then I'll confirm.
I think we need visual confirmation |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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edappel
Learned Scribe
Brazil
211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2009 : 21:47:54
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| Good point Red Walker... There should be a site to see pictures of the "famous CandleKeep Masters of Lore".. It would be fun. (Don't forget THO!) |
--- Ed Appel
*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2009 : 11:46:29
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quote:
Originally posted by edappel
Good point Red Walker... There should be a site to see pictures of the "famous CandleKeep Masters of Lore".. It would be fun. (Don't forget THO!)
And we should also have one with pictures of the "Infamous" ones as well. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2009 : 02:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by edappel
Good point Red Walker... There should be a site to see pictures of the "famous CandleKeep Masters of Lore".. It would be fun. (Don't forget THO!)
And we should also have one with pictures of the "Infamous" ones as well.
Are you referring to me and Wooly, perhaps? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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too many good looking characters
