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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2009 : 00:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Greater Treasure being a story in Realms of the Elves? Drats, think I'm in for the chase after Fox-at-Twilight. So she appears in what books and areas? :P *brings a pad and starts writing down notes*
That's the one. I'm extremely happy with that story--it turned out exactly as I wanted it. Twilight shows up there, as do Yldar and Cythara. Plus, there are a lot of excellent stories in that anthology, so you won't be displeased.
quote:
Myrin is like Rogue from x-men, and she absorbs the stuff of spells by touch. But Fayne somehow manipulated her in absorbing a detect thoughts spell or ability to force her a falsified dream? Feyri can grow mindreading kinds of powers with age or experience I think...
Myrin *is* a little like Rogue, isn't she? She does a couple things, actually--I don't want to say too much about it, as I want to leave it open for further development, but generally speaking, she can absorb another person's power (only one power at a time, it seems, and not always controllable), and she can also absorb memories.
I guess we don't know if the dream was true or not. Fayne's reaction provides some hint--did she mean Myrin to see those images, or was it accidental?
More to come later, I hope. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 18:56:46
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I applaude you again for making use of a dwarf character thats definately memorable. Rath just had such style to him. He was not the sharpest sword, but his expressions, mockery and speed just flashed of the pages. He made me laugh out loud in more than a few instances.
I don't know but I think for comparision the modern martial art that fits his style best might be a speedier version of krav maga, with brutal limb snapping finishes. It could have some elements of a hard version of karate or juijitsu. The creator in me would like to flesh out the mechanics of his school or martial art. :)
A dungeoncrashing monk 12/fighter 4/shou disciple 2 is my 3.5 guess.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2009 : 19:20:31
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Krav maga, eh? Never even heard of it, but I shall definitely look it up.
As for fleshing out his mechanics, go for it! Definitely a fighter/monk in terms of 3.5. We don't have the 4e mechanics for a monk, so his best fit is probably either an aerialist rogue (his sword being a light blade) or perhaps an isolating avenger (if you interpret the divine investiture as him having received the blessing, then turned his back on the organization). But since he's an antagonist, we'd be better served to build him as a 4e monster statblock.
Speaking of mechanics, I don't think there'd be anything wrong with speculating as to 3.5 mechanics for the characters. How do people interpret the others in the book?
I'll suggest Kalen, which I don't think gives anything away (seeing as his last name is Shadowbane): his best fit is probably a rogue/paladin/shadowbane inquisitor. That's the way I built him when I originally ran him as an NPC, and then as a PC.
(Kalen is one of the few characters I've brought from my games into my writing.)
Anyone else?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2009 : 13:35:40
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Kalen definately has uncanny dodge still running from his theiving years, this I felt through his fights in dark corridors of Downshadow, so 4 levels rogue and a fairly high dex score fit him. Three levels pally and the exotic proficiency in bastard sword are evident too. The rest the shadowbane inquisitor with a stealthy focus to his skills and feats. I suspect Kalen is about level 12 or so. His spellscar gives him natural AC and some damage reduction and perhaps even a minor strength and constitution enhancement. It has a periodic near petrifying effect on his body.
Fayne would be a cleric/rogue or somesuch. Perhaps a cleric/warlock/eldritch theurge, as she seems to poses some fiendishpact based skills. Level 10 or so. High intelligence and charisma.
Myrin is a sorceres/spellthief, perhaps one with a piece of halasters or mystras shattered soul sharing hers powering her arcane abilties. She also has a spellscar far more powerful than any others seen that seems to work a bit like spellfire absorbtion and spelltheft. No idea how much levels she has trapped in her soul, but she herself might be only a first level spellthief thanks to her amnesia.
Rayse and Talanna are both around six or seventh level. Rayse perhaps a fighter4/ranger2 and Talanna a scout5/fighter2. Cellica might have been a rogue5/ranger3 of Tymorra.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Fillow
Master of Realmslore
France
1608 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2009 : 14:59:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Krav maga, eh? Never even heard of it, but I shall definitely look it up.
Indeed, you should !
this Israeli martial art is used in many armed forces, especially special forces and "personalities protection" forces (we use it in French ones), as much as private security and bodyguard agencies.
for much information : Krav maga in wikipedia
You should also try it. It's very efficient, especially used parallel to Aïkido. |
"Today is a good day to smile",
Fillow Big'n'Book Mahlemiut 'Lead-dog', Son of Garl, Wanderer of the Masked Leaf and Namer of Oghma.
- Fight in the arena and have fun ! : La brute.com
- Feel free to take part to these projects : Post-Spellplague bibliography ; 4E index project ; Taverns and inns of the Realms ; Dogs of the Realms ; Descriptions of places in the novels ; forums, RPG, FR Abbreviations and Acronyms
- Come and have a look at the already asked questions from the Forgotten Realms Trivia Challenge
I am a French FR fan, so please forgive my lapses in English language and do not hesitate to correct me. Thanks a lot. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2009 : 17:41:46
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@BW: I like your stats, which are pretty close in flavor with my intentions.
If Myrin is a spellthief (which was pretty much how I envisioned her), then that sort of explains away her spellscar abilities. Granted, the mechanics don't really line up, but it's the easiest way in 3.5 not to create a whole new set of rules. I also originally intended her to be a sorcerer (multi-class spellthief/sorcerer, so in 4e she would be a sorcerer [base] with spellscar feats), but the PHB2 hadn't come out at the time, so I had no idea what the mechanics for a sorcerer were (thus, her spells are a little wizardy in appearance). You are correct in your suspicion that she might be more powerful were she to break through her amnesia . . . I hope we'll see in later books!
When I ran Kalen as an NPC in my 3.5 Realms campaign, he was a rogue 2/paladin 4. When I later ran him as a PC in a friend's convention game, he was rog2/pal4/shadowbane inquisitor 9. I think mechanically one might have more luck skipping the Shadowbane Inquisitor PrC entirely and just going for a straight rogue/paladin build (compare Kalen's build to a rogue 10/paladin 5), but I particularly like being able to glow and smite non-evil things (one particular CN creature in the game).
As for Fayne, interestingly enough, when I wrote the *first draft* of Downshadow, she was a rogue/illusionist (from 3.5). It wasn't until I had submitted my first draft that I got to see a few more of the 4e mechanics and realized that not only was multiclassing totally different (so I had to play down Kalen's rogue/paladin-ness), but illusionist didn't really exist as a class, so I made her a fey-pact warlock instead . . . as evidenced by her use of the eyebite ability on at least one occasion.
One thing about these characters is that they are supposed to be fairly low-level (heroic tier, not paragon tier). 3.5 levels and 4e levels don't really align (i.e., IMO, 4e 30th level is more like 3.5e 20th level)--that's just a theory, though.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2009 : 06:06:47
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@BW: None of it's based on an actual adventure, though I did borrow some ideas and themes from games I have actually run. Kalen appeared as a rogue-turned-paladin NPC, one that was very popular among the PCs in that adventure, and Fayne was a recurring antagonist in the same adventure (she and Kalen became great enemies) and an ally in the follow-up to that adventure, which was an evil-PCs campaign.
I have been playing home games in the Realms since seventh grade--age 12, and I'm 25 now (going on 26), so . . . more than half my life, actually. Other characters are partly inspired from my home games: Twilight (DoM) is similar in some respects to a character I once played, and the ghostwalker (GW) is an inheritor of a legacy of similarly-themed characters (dark, mysterious, nameless).
I think gameplay is a great source of ideas . . . though I don't go so far as to transcribe campaigns into my novels. Mostly, I just take some events or characteristics or themes that I liked, and use them as inspiration.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 21:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[Well, Cythara and Ilira/Fox-at-Twilight first met in my story, "The Greater Treasure," where began their competition over Yldar's heart (he's both Cythara's brother and Ilira's occasional lover). For more detail on their threesome, see the writeups that Tom Costa and I did: Yldar and Cythara and Twilight. (Note the resemblance between surnames?)
Aaaah thank you so much for these links Erik! Unfortunetaly I have no access to The Greater Treasure but those two documents really brighten my day. In fact the descriptions make me want to pull out charakter sheets and dice immediately to build some chars again!
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2009 : 23:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Unfortunetaly I have no access to The Greater Treasure but those two documents really brighten my day.
Really, you don't have a copy of Realms of the Elves? Drop me an email and we'll see what we can do about that--I have a few copies lying around and would be happy to send you one (if you reimburse me): erikscottdebie AT yahoo.com
Or you can always wait the 10 years or for my Best of the Realms collection. Also to be included: The ghostwalker origin story, Myrin's past unveiled, Fox and the Blue Fire, along with tons of hot elf-on-elf action.
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In fact the descriptions make me want to pull out charakter sheets and dice immediately to build some chars again!
That's the best praise a designer can receive.
Let me know if you'd like any thoughts on using any of that stuff in-game. Either as part of an actual adventure, or as part of the background for a character. Twilight could very well have a long-lost child or two, you know . . . and we *know* Cythara does! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 02:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Drop me an email and we'll see what we can do about that
okidoki! 
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Or you can always wait the 10 years or for my Best of the Realms collection. Also to be included: The ghostwalker origin story, Myrin's past unveiled, Fox and the Blue Fire, along with tons of hot elf-on-elf action.
You mean the "Legends: The very best of Erik Scott de Bie" collection which will be published 5 years after "Erik Scott the Bie - the mastermind's complete novel vault"? 
Which will both be x-rated in 98 countries due to "steamy" content (and the explicit illustrations from "wet-breeches and shirts"-contests)!? 
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
That's the best praise a designer can receive.
Let me know if you'd like any thoughts on using any of that stuff in-game. Either as part of an actual adventure, or as part of the background for a character. Twilight could very well have a long-lost child or two, you know . . . and we *know* Cythara does!
As I currently have no gaming group, I will not use this for in-game. However maybe I will have a go on a short story and in this context I really liked the Fox file from your link: not so much for using the character but for being extremely well done! Paul Kemp always says that the characters have to be well developed as they form the story arc (and the setting etc is then "simply/only" attached to this).
So your doc would really be the perfect basis for starting to write about a character. I have read quite a lot char descriptions, but this is really a good one.
Why? Because first of all, your writing style usually leaves out 80% of everything that you have thought and built around your characters. You like keeping many ends and turns open and thus foster speculations and fantasy about future and side developments plus increase plot complexity. However this way characters also lose their potential of depth as you simply will tell only a small part of what they are/were and how they (really) feel. So reading the doc about Fox greatly improves one's understanding of her.
Apart from that it is a great mixture: her motivations are much more understandable and she is a really likeable character even though she hurts lots of people emotionally. I also liked the explaination on trickster touched, how they form this character class and lots of Fox's background. I also liked very much the details of her outfit and equipment. That's what creates atmosphere, when characters have style and well thought (magic) items that make you dream and enter a truly fantastic world. There is a lot of love for detail and a really thrilling character who is strong and brilliant and on the other hand that insecure and "small/no superheroe". Really well done. |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
Edited by - skychrome on 09 Jun 2009 02:49:40 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2009 : 06:09:50
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Thank you, sir--I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I think you'll find the Yldar and Cythara doc more gratifying once you've read "The Greater Treasure"--that's where they first appear, after all.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2009 : 23:31:48
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Alright, then...I devoured the rest of "Downshadow" last night and today. Firstly, let me sing you some well deserved praise, and at the end, let me point out a big problem I had with the book...
The praise...
Basically, or general statements, you could take every word from what I wrote about Chapters 1 to 5 and extrapolate from that.
Absolutely fantastic character dynamics, never getting dull but rather gaining strength as the novel went on.
Excellent use of small gestures/mannerisms and patterns of speech to give the characters distinctive multidimensional personalities.
Fantastic atmosphere, really made Waterdeep come alive for me. Lots and lots of tiny tidbits (the different broadcryers, watch-members, taverns, etc.) adding to that. I (naturally) loved the nod to "Old Faerun" with the different costumes worn to the Revel or the titles of the books Kalen peruses. Generally I felt you added lore and history not only to the characters, but to the setting presented in your novel, which in turn added the to the story´s "life"
Though I wish the halfling hadn´t died...I mean, there were enough Waterdeep lasses to off, aye? Nah, I understand plotwise...
You also did great by tying the story into your former novels in a way that never felt forced and should make readers for whom this is your first novel want to read your former ones.
Oh, and three Huzzahs for Waterhavian...err...passions coming unbound.
"Even more praise...*exasparated sigh*...oh, very well, then..."
+1 for the Olive Ruskettle reference
+1 for "Torm´s Conquests"
+1 for presenting a man who is without a true chance to succeed...in understanding the women around him
So, despite liking the novels and the short story you´ve done before (they are definitely on my re-read list), I still feel that this is your strongest novel to date (although that comparison isn´t really fair because they are so different).
All in all that would put this book at an Excellent +3, and I have already recommended it to several people (with a friendly "or else..." of course).
Now here is the problem I had with "Downshadow"...you need a trilogy, man...you always building in unsolved questions and open ends and clifhangers and whatnot. ´Tis unbearable. But seriously, I feel the only way the novel could have been better, is if you would have had even more volume in which to place more content. "Downshadow" would be a fantastic opener for more...and I think you´d be just the man to write a great trilogy based on it.
Oh, and just a little thing...
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm glad you're liking it, Dart--it's particularly gratifying because I know you're not sold on 4e.
You know, I´ve never left any doubt on where I stand regarding 4E, and I´m not planning to run a campaign in it etc.(But then I´m still running under homebrewed 2E rules anyway ) and I honestly loathe what has been done to he setting. BUT...I fell in love with the FR via the novels. I read those before I started to game and DM (just like I usually read supplememts for lore and fluff, not mechanics and stats). It was the distinct Realms flair that appealed to me and the strong writing, characters and stories. (I also like(d) novels from other settings...I just want them to remain distinctive to the setting). Therefore I have never doubted that I´d continue to read FR novels unless they´d become something else than FR novels, if you know what I mean. I don´t care if a character is spellscarred or fiend-touched or whatnot, as long as it´s a strong character and not defined by being spellscarred etc.(e.g. the hero being a spellscarred half-fiend/half-lemur adamantine golem with celestial parentage, whose brother is a half-genasi/half-aasimar undead paladin...alright, that was over the top, I know  . But y´know...what was the old Grubb rule: "Don´t blow up the moon".)
You defined Kalen by his history and personality, so there really isn´t a difference to me if he´s spellscarred, god-cursed or where else his illness cones from. The characters were great and very believeable FR characters.
The key is it is a superb novel in it´s own right, also a superb FR novel and therefore I applaud you heartily.
Now, excuse my rambling and take the praise-cookies...
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~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2009 : 01:25:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
Now here is the problem I had with "Downshadow"...you need a trilogy, man...you always building in unsolved questions and open ends and clifhangers and whatnot. ´Tis unbearable. But seriously, I feel the only way the novel could have been better, is if you would have had even more volume in which to place more content. "Downshadow" would be a fantastic opener for more...and I think you´d be just the man to write a great trilogy based on it.
Totally agree with you Dart!
Erik, your open ends and unsolved questions style -which seems to characterize your writing (remember we talked about this already regarding DoM?)- is yelling for a trilogy! It just never fits in one book.
I feel every time you write something, it is only a small piece in your "mind series of 25 consecutive books".
If the ends will ever meet in some parts and thus characters will gain more depth as backgrounds and motives are revealed, then it has to be more than stand alone books, I feel.
Considering that DS has been well received by fans, it should be possible to convince WoTC to write a series, wouldn't it?
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2009 : 05:12:03
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@Dart: Thank you sir. I am deeply honored by your lauding accolades, and I am extremely glad I wrote you a book that worked for you. It's one of the greatest satisfactions of my life to tell stories that entertain.
A couple specific notes:
quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
I (naturally) loved the nod to "Old Faerun" with the different costumes worn to the Revel or the titles of the books Kalen peruses. Generally I felt you added lore and history not only to the characters, but to the setting presented in your novel, which in turn added the to the story´s "life"
Playing in one of the best parts of Ed's sandbox (Waterdeep) was extremely fun, and lacing those things in was one of the most gratifying parts of the writing process.
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Though I wish the halfling hadn´t died...I mean, there were enough Waterdeep lasses to off, aye? Nah, I understand plotwise...
Yeah, but I only got the effect I desired by offing the one my readers are most likely to care the most about. I call it "pulling a Martin." And if I made you hurl the book across the room in outrage, then yeah, that's a bonus.
I'm glad you liked her. I did too. But like some very wise man said about writing, "Murder your darlings."
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You also did great by tying the story into your former novels in a way that never felt forced and should make readers for whom this is your first novel want to read your former ones.
Heh heh. Thank you! I was trying very hard to integrate everything in an organic way that made sense.
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+1 for presenting a man who is without a true chance to succeed...in understanding the women around him
What it's like to be a paladin in the Realms, indeed.
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Now here is the problem I had with "Downshadow"...you need a trilogy, man...you always building in unsolved questions and open ends and clifhangers and whatnot. ´Tis unbearable. But seriously, I feel the only way the novel could have been better, is if you would have had even more volume in which to place more content.
"Downshadow" would be a fantastic opener for more...and I think you´d be just the man to write a great trilogy based on it.
And believe me when I say that I would *happily* have done that . . . I just didn't want to make promises for future stories that may or may not materialize. I just wanted to strike the right balance to leave it open for more, whilst making my readers definitely *want* more.
quote:
You defined Kalen by his history and personality, so there really isn´t a difference to me if he´s spellscarred, god-cursed or where else his illness cones from. The characters were great and very believeable FR characters.
The key is it is a superb novel in it´s own right, also a superb FR novel and therefore I applaud you heartily.
Now, excuse my rambling and take the praise-cookies...
Thank you. And as I said, it means a lot to me.
@Skycrome:
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Erik, your open ends and unsolved questions style -which seems to characterize your writing (remember we talked about this already regarding DoM?)- is yelling for a trilogy! It just never fits in one book.
I feel every time you write something, it is only a small piece in your "mind series of 25 consecutive books".
If the ends will ever meet in some parts and thus characters will gain more depth as backgrounds and motives are revealed, then it has to be more than stand alone books, I feel.
Heh. It's not sadism or lack of focus or anything like that, simply a small snapshot of a character's life in a fully actualized, astoundingly wide world like the Realms. Obviously, it's totally reasonable to capture a character's story in one book. I did it in Ghostwalker with the titular hero, after all, and Downshadow is--sort of--Shadowbane's story (though obviously, it can--and should--go on). But the problem is, there are lots more characters in each of my books, and all of them have stories. So sue me if I want to tell them.
I write this way partly because that's how I like to write, and partly because that's what the Realms is for me. You crack open one of Paul's books, or Bob's books, or Elaine's books, or (especially) Ed's books, and the characters are fully-fledged people who *happen* to connect up with the story. Their beginnings and endings go on outside any one of the novels in which they appear.
And also, I'm following a piece of classic Ed Greenwood wisdom: for every door that closes, open nine more.
Also a piece of Steve Schend wisdom: Never leave a body.
quote:
Considering that DS has been well received by fans, it should be possible to convince WoTC to write a series, wouldn't it?
Well, I hope so! I'm certainly willing.
I'll say something about this, but it's not meant to be limited to me. This applies to all authors everywhere that you want to see more from. If you love a particular author but you're not seeing as many books as you want, here's what you've got to do:
Be very, very vocal. Recommend the author's work to others. Write reviews. Get your friends to write reviews. Brave the WotC boards (or other publishers' website) and tell them there what you want--write emails to the WotC folks. And (here's the classic, possibly most effective one) write hard-copy snail mail letters to the editors at Wizards--or even higher ups. Those are hard to ignore.
And above all, KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2009 : 06:34:57
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Bah...accolades are for the deserving. I´m a (demanding) bibliophile, so if I feel strongly, I speak strongly...so "don´t blow up the moon" in your next literary endeavour or I shall "turn my minstrel´s crooning into a scourging lash...or somesuch."
No, seriously, I thank you for providing me with a great read and surefire re-read.(just shot out some amazon.de and amazon.co.uk reviews for "Downshadow btw.)
I do hope you understood I was jesting when I said I "had a problem", though indeed I´d love for you to have even more room to spin your tales. Looking forward to your future works.
quote:
What it's like to be a paladin in the Realms, indeed.
What´s it like to be a man anywhere
And Sir, I don´t "hurl" books that I like...I hurl other things close to them instead. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
Edited by - Dart Ambermoon on 21 Jun 2009 06:35:34 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2009 : 07:27:16
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Well, that's my favorite story (and a familiar experience to many of his readers, I imagine) about George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, specifically Game of Thrones. (Hence, "pulling a Martin.")
There's one particular part (and if you've read it, you'll probably know which part I mean) where I literally closed the book and flung it across the room with a cry of rage . . . sat stunned a few minutes . . . wandered around clutching my hands in impotent fury . . . then went back to reading voraciously, because it was just too good.
I'd like to do that in my writing career--prompt a reaction like that. Just once.
Possibly more than once.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2009 : 16:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
But the problem is, there are lots more characters in each of my books, and all of them have stories. So sue me if I want to tell them.
I will! Great that there is the concept of punitive damage in US law!
*calls a weasely lackey from the lawyers guild: "go forth my minion and hold de Bie (paragon path author class) responsible for...ah...fathers day...whatever! Ah and by the way, bring me the copies of the Fox-series please!"*
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I write this way partly because that's how I like to write, and partly because that's what the Realms is for me. You crack open one of Paul's books, or Bob's books, or Elaine's books, or (especially) Ed's books, and the characters are fully-fledged people who *happen* to connect up with the story. Their beginnings and endings go on outside any one of the novels in which they appear.
And also, I'm following a piece of classic Ed Greenwood wisdom: for every door that closes, open nine more.
Well Erik, I do not want you to feel that I am attacking your writing, I like it as you certainly know!
And I totally agree that a book has to be only a snapshot in the life of a fully developed character. No discussion about that.
I also agree that you have to leave doors open and it is not the idea the reveal and close everything about a character in every book.
I would also agree with Ed's quote.
However personally I think it is not necessarily a good option to throw open nine more doors on each character itself (instead of his plot) after closing a door.
To identify with a character I think it is necessary to know more about their background and motives. By permanently leaving open / opening new doors on the character itself (not what he is about to do or which plots might cross his/her path), I cannot fully connect to this character. I can surely enjoy reading about him, but will not get too attached.
In DS for example Shadowbane is a character I felt well developed and I can get attached to him (independent from liking or disliking him, but accept him as a main character, understand him (at least his point of view) and get attached). There is background, motives, way of thinking, traumas and still enough ends open to have him in other plots.
Fayne on the other hand... well it takes till to the end to understand her better and there is still very much in the gloom. So in this book I could not identify with her yet because there was little time "spend together knowing each other better".
One could argue now if this start of a deeper connection can simply be transfered to another book that is featuring her and further be developed there.
So yes, a book provides only a snapshot in a character's life, but that goes apart from getting explained the primary drivers in the life of a character which can be done in one book in order to enable readers to connect more deeply to a character.
And no, this is not meant as criticism, I am just discussing some points of view on the options of how to connect to characters.
No matter how I turn it, I think it would be really really interesting to have you writing a trilogy. I am sure this would go extremely well with your style!
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2009 : 19:20:57
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Well thanks. And sorry if Fayne didn't work out better for you! As a character, she tries to keep herself mysterious, so it was certainly purposeful that the unveiling/development of her character was stretched over the full book.
As I said, I try to strike a balance between telling you the things you *need to know* about the characters, and making you want to know more. I think there could have been more about Twilight's background in Depths of Madness, for instance, and I fully intend to develop her more . . . and I hope there's enough call to do so. Fayne certainly has more story to tell, too. And while I think I told enough about her story to give you the sense of who she was, I can obviously follow up with another book. Or three.
The "close one door, open nine more" is something of an exaggeration. It's more like the general advice to tie off loose ends, but also leave openings for further development. Satisfy your readers' appetite, but make them want to come back for another meal. You know?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2009 : 20:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The "close one door, open nine more" is something of an exaggeration. It's more like the general advice to tie off loose ends, but also leave openings for further development. Satisfy your readers' appetite, but make them want to come back for another meal. You know?
It works!
Thus our insisting on a trilogy!
Fox in DS was a really good teaser for future material with her. What exactly happened to her in the Spellplague I wonder? And what adventures did she pass according to the novel titles in DS? Questions after questions make me want to have another meal!
Man, wouldn't it be great to have the whole Fox series actually be released? A character's life being a cronicle of an important timespan in the realms...
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2009 : 00:47:33
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Well, we'll see what WotC wants from me next. In the meantime, I just hope Downshadow proves to be a success and they come looking for more.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 03:25:31
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I’ve read some great FR novels in the last year. The FR authors that I’m familiar with have done a great job. I’m often reluctant to try new authors (new to me, that is), and I was reluctant to start Downshadow.
That reluctance died within the first 20 pages.
This was one of the best FR books I’ve ever read. It’s Greenwood caliber, if I may use that term. So many classic references, and I’ve been waiting for them for, what, 3 or 4 post-spellplague novels? The Yawning Portal, Curious Past, the masquerade, all the subtle references that only a true Realms fan would catch, I really enjoyed that. Mention of Westgate and Manshoon, Halaster, Danilo Thann… I know I’m missing several others.
I like Downshadow as a place, and I really enjoyed the changes over time. Undermountain is a place that I often take my players, and to see its change after 100 years was very interesting to me.
Shadowbane. I thought Erevis Cale was cool, but Shadowbane made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. That early scene, where Shadowbane is stalking that sputtering merchant, that was absolutely awesome. It’s arguably one of the coolest moments in FR fiction. That’s right, I said it! I definitely see Batman there, but I never rolled my eyes over it. I don’t know if I’ve ever witnessed a “Batman” type in Faerun aside from Cale in his earlier books, though the comparison blurs quickly. I bought it and accepted it immediately as totally cool. I’m hooked on Shadowbane.
The plot was also very juicy, with tons of 3D characters that really stood apart from one another. A lesser author would have confused me with Lorien, Ilira, Fayne, Cellica, Myrin, and Araezra. They all stood out very well, and not just because of their appearances. Rath was just as impressive as Shadowbane, and I can’t wait to see the dwarf again. I’m still waiting for an explanation on why so many people describe the dwarf’s movements as beyond mortal. Cellica was a memorable character, but if Hamil gets himself killed in Avenger, then there’s no question that WotC is prejudiced against halflings (R.I.P. Jak Fleet). I really enjoyed Fayne’s character, primarily trying to figure out what she is. I thought she was a dryad for a time. Her character was very unique, and I thought her conflicts with all the characters were rock solid.
I might also add that the writing itself was sharp, clever, quite daring, and just fun to read. Great dialogue, great narration, compelling shifts in perspective… I ate it up.
Lastly, this is definitely a gamer’s novel. There’s an entire level of understanding in Downshadow that a person who doesn’t play D&D will miss. I know all the FR books reference the game, but Downshadow references tons of moments that remind gamers of why they game.
You’re on my FR must-read list now, Erik. I’m excited to read more of your books, and I’m even more excited to read more about the characters in Downshadow.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2009 : 05:49:18
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Wow, sir, I am in awe. Thank you so much, and I'm glad you enjoyed!
You should consider posting this on Amazon or goodreads.com. Not only is it extremely laudatory (good for me!), but also it is cogent and very well written (good for you!).
I shall definitely strive ever to be worthy of your praise.
I will say that Cellica was not symptomatic of a bias, but rather just because that's how the plot worked. She would have died, whatever race she was--I just wanted to use a halfling. And as a matter of fact, my editor tends to favor my halfling characters over everyone else. (For instance, Slip in Depths of Madness, who is--I think--equally awesome in a different way.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2009 : 22:54:06
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Thank you for your kind words, Erik. I'm going to heavily push Downshadow at Sunday's game. I know at least one of them will consider committing to a novel. I’ll post this to Amazon as you suggest, though I’ll remove spoilers and edit it down for a more general audience.
The Batman thing is just a loose comparison. Kalen Dren is his own man, and he's awesome. The spellplague, his "invincible knight with the silver eyes" persona is almost cooler that Batman himself , his rogue/paladin history, his hideouts, his contacts... The realization that he was a shadowbane inquisitor from Complete Adventurer almost made me stand up. I love spotting things like that.
This might not interest some, but I enjoyed the signature magical items in the novel. Vindicator, Dren's boots with the blue trail, Rath's katana, Fayne's wand, Cellica's crossbow pendant, etc. Even Dren's cloak stood out. Many of these items almost became characters themselves. Certainly Vindicator did, whether intelligent or not. I kept imagining Vindicator compelling Araezra in some way when she possessed it. I was waiting for that one chapter where we get nothing but Vindicator reflecting on the situation and its role, sort of like Khazid'hea often does in the Drizzt books.
I might also add that the novel contains what could only be considered one-liners. I distinctly remember Dren growling "Just him" in Downshadow, and later, when poised over Rath, his declaration of "Justice" really stands out. Araezra's choked "Pick... it... up" is classic. Fayne's words with B'Zeer are hilarious, and Rath certainly has his share of great lines. Cellica referring to Myrin as “Peach” was also a nice touch. Another author might have used something tired like “lass” or “dear,” but “peach” really made Cellica stand out. It might be minor, but things like that really sell me on a novel.
I was left wondering about the true nature of some characters. Many of them (Rath, Fayne, Ilira, Lorien, Myrin) gave me the impression that they were either powerful fey or outsiders, a god in Myrin's case (I even considered malaugrym... I prayed for malaugrym), sort of playing around in the "sandbox" that is Faerun. However, in the case of Dren, Araezra, Talanna, and others, they were definitely "heroic." I found that hierarchy of power to be very interesting, identifying who is pulling the strings and who is being controlled. That's balanced well.
The main characters were great, but the peripheral characters were just as cool. The lich, Fayne's superior (the name escapes me), Bors Jarthay, Treth, Turnstone... Just a great ensemble of characters that I couldn’t take my eyes away from, much like a Goodfellas or Godfather movie, where every single character is amazing to watch.
I'm glad that Downshadow seems like a "book 1" of sorts. That's surprising, because it really seemed like Rath, Fayne, and Dren were all going to die by the end of the book. Fayne seems to fly too close to the flames, Rath is just looking to get himself killed, and Dren was already dying. I even expected Myrin to tragically (and perhaps accidentally) kill herself after losing control of her powers. It's great to know that I get to see these characters again.
Again, excellent book. It really stands apart from most of the other 100+ FR books I’ve read in the last 11 years.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 19:13:59
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Thank you, Crust--and like I said, anytime you're in the mood to post some of this excellent review on Amazon or whatever, feel free--nay, encouraged! This is some of the best reviewing I've seen in a while. (Though on that note, Downshadow has indeed been blessed with glowing reviews.
I do hope to continue the characters' story, and don't count out any of those ultimate fates yet! Kalen is still dying of his illness, Myrin is still always at risk of losing control (she *almost* did so when she fought Rath), Rath still has a score to settle, and Fayne is definitely like a moth at the flame.
And there will be yet more surprises in store. As some have said, my best pitch is a curve ball, after all.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Rosemary Jones
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2009 : 07:28:55
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So I've been really, really slow about posting. But I forgot to tell Erik this last night at our book signing.
I LOVE the Epilogue. Especially the "smudges" on the letter.
You know me, a romantic soul, and finally I have hope for two of Erik's amazing characters actually have a happy ending some day! Of course, only after much trial, strife, and many more adventures.
Off to rethink the use of epilogues in general. Keep 'em coming, tall guy! |
Rosemary Jones
www.rosemaryjones.com |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2009 : 15:38:09
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Thanks, Rosemary. Coming from one of the brightest/romantic writers in the Realms today, that means a lot!
And to explain her last comment a little, folks: before our signing the other day, we had a bit of a discussion about prologues and epilogues, specifically, how to put in an effective prologue, and whether epilogues were helpful or not.
I mean, your characters are at their best in the climax of the story--why take everything down a peg with an epilogue? But even as I keep saying this to myself, I always find myself writing epilogues. I suppose it's just a need for an emotional release, and offer hints and themes that will shape future adventures. The story just feels incomplete without an epilogue . . . ironically, serving to set up a continuation.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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NyluenathaStareyes
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 05:02:15
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OK, so this is my first time posting here on the Candlekeep boards, although I've certainly lurked around and read some of the forums and threads here. I have to say that your writing is absolutely stellar Erik. Big kudos for making such interesting tales! I love the subtlety and threading of interesting little plot points that you've done so well and so seamlessly! Your characters are so vibrant, so human, and perfectly fallible. It makes them so much easier to envision and brings them such a richness and depth.
All that aside, I looooooooove all the little tie-ins between the stories you've made. The absolute tops for me had to be Fox-at-Twilight's appearance in Downshadow as Lady Ilira Nathalan. I absolutely did not pick up on that right away (Nathalan should have given it away, but it was just too subtle for me to notice since I hadn't read The Greater Treasure in some time), and was pumped to see the Shroud still in her possession. The revelation that Fayne's patron was Lilten, Ilira's ex-lover and (IIRC) presumed dead from what little we learned of him in Depths of Madness, was just the sort of juicy tidbit I love to gobble up at the end of a killer story like you created with Downshadow.
Ok, what else...there's so much! Fayne being Cythara's daughter, Cythara's death at Ilira's hands, Gargan's transformation and Ilira's tattoo of his name across her breastbone, Cellica having been a prisoner of the same cult Cythara lead (and her death at Fayne's hands as Cythara). I could go on for a looooooong time about all the little bits and pieces that tied together one era of the Forgotten Realms to another.
My biggest question though, after rereading Depths of Madness and specifically hunting down anything that could be connected to Downshadow and the characters therein has to be this:
When Slip was talking about the group she came into Negarath with, she mentioned that she came in with Liet, a thick dwarf and a blue-haired girl. Could this be Myrin???? |
Realms fan for life! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 15:24:09
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@NS, thank you, and I'm so glad you enjoy!
Now for some specifics . . .
quote:
Originally posted by NyluenathaStareyes
Your characters are so vibrant, so human, and perfectly fallible. It makes them so much easier to envision and brings them such a richness and depth.
This is a big compliment, thank you! I'm glad they ring true.
quote:
All that aside, I looooooooove all the little tie-ins between the stories you've made. The absolute tops for me had to be Fox-at-Twilight's appearance in Downshadow as Lady Ilira Nathalan. I absolutely did not pick up on that right away (Nathalan should have given it away, but it was just too subtle for me to notice since I hadn't read The Greater Treasure in some time), and was pumped to see the Shroud still in her possession.
Yup. I wonder what it means that she has Yldar's (and Cythara's) last name . . . just a trick, or is it somehow valid?
quote:
The revelation that Fayne's patron was Lilten, Ilira's ex-lover and (IIRC) presumed dead from what little we learned of him in Depths of Madness, was just the sort of juicy tidbit I love to gobble up at the end of a killer story like you created with Downshadow.
Oh yes, we haven't seen the last of him, to be sure . . .
quote:
Fayne being Cythara's daughter, Cythara's death at Ilira's hands, Gargan's transformation and Ilira's tattoo of his name across her breastbone
I plan to reveal more about this dramatic turn of events in later books as well. Stay tuned!
quote:
Cellica having been a prisoner of the same cult Cythara lead (and her death at Fayne's hands as Cythara)
I'm glad you picked up on that--I was worried it would be too subtle! But yes, that was indeed my intention in that scene.
quote:
My biggest question though, after rereading Depths of Madness and specifically hunting down anything that could be connected to Downshadow and the characters therein has to be this:
When Slip was talking about the group she came into Negarath with, she mentioned that she came in with Liet, a thick dwarf and a blue-haired girl. Could this be Myrin????
My lips are sealed . . . except to note that is a distinct possibility. Blue hair (particularly *naturally* blue hair) on a seemingly human girl really isn't common, even in the Realms.
Cheers
P.S. Did you read the Downshadow companion story ("The Last Legend of Gedrin Shadowbane")? You might be able to glean something there, as well . . . |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2009 : 19:50:53
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WOW...Just finished it last night, and I have to say that this is one of the best fantasy novels (not JUST FR)
that I have ever read. Having finished Ghostwalker this Sat. I was worried that Downshadow would seem pale by comparison to that excellent story. But this story rang true with every character and scene.
WELL DONE and a big THANK YOU !!!!
I also would like to add that in both novels of yours that I have read, your fight scenes are some of the best described I have read. The detail and loving attention to the technical aspects of a fight is something a lot of writers just don't "get". But it is clear that you do. If this is how descriptive you are as a DM..I have great envy for those involved with your games.
The "usual" picture everyone seems to have of a paladin is head to toe plate mail with "Thee's and Thou's" spouting from his/her lips. Seeing a different perspective on the class was not only a unique experience but also a refreshing one. All of the books in the "Waterdeep" series are great reads, and this one certainly shoulders it's way to the front of the class.
Again Eric...Thank you and keep going...I can't wait for the next one. |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Downshadow - Chapter 35 - Epilogue
