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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 15:44:25
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Just a discussion and place for speculation as to what may become of the duet of viper's who murdered Mystra, caused the destruction of Dweomerheart, and ended the glory that was the lady of mysteries and magic.
What do you guys think?!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 15:55:13
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Shar has become the 'go-to' evil deity in 4E and Cyric's been locked in his throne for 1000 years. So, one was punished and the other was rewarded.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 16:00:53
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WTC!!??
I thought that his thousand years had been up and that's what allowed him to leave and commit his vile crime?!
Gaaah!
Well, thanks for the info, Ashe. What about Shar? Do you think there has been a retaliation against her yet? It doesn't have to be cannon, mind you. We're just speculating.
I think Selune will be instrumental in her downfall, at some point. From what I gather, Selune and Mystra were close. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 17:35:09
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At the end of 3E, it was being implied (with the three hardbound modules containing a reference to "Shar's coming weakness") that there was going to be something that happened to Shar. Instead, she became the über-baddie of 4E. Because if focusing way too much on good guys is a Bad Thing, the obvious solution (other than killing off those good guys  ) is to focus way too much on the bad guys.
And the spotlight is now on someone who prefers darkness and shadows. Ironic! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Mar 2009 17:40:16 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 17:45:35
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Mystryl was created from both Sylūne and Shar, so they are both her 'mother', as it were. So far, it doesn't appear that Shar is suffering any retribution from her complicity in Mystra's murder.
In my Realms, Cyric and Shar went after Mystra, but with a divination from Savras, Mystra was able to see the attack coming and prepared herself. She still died, but instead of the Spellplague and destruction of the weave, her death recreated the weave, fixing all the damage it had taken over the years and re-incorporating the Shadow Weave back into itself. Her portfolio was split and she passed control of the Weave and spells to both Selūne and Shar. There is no distinction between magic or Shadow magic anymore, since they are one and the same. Followers of the two goddesses and casters pay service to the one that they most identify with (i.e. Evil wizards will give lip service to Shar, while others will pay respect to Selūne). Azuth and Savras moved to the Gates of the Moon and attend Selūne, while Velsharoon took up with Shar. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Gang Falconhand
Seeker
United Kingdom
85 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 17:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
In my Realms, Cyric and Shar went after Mystra, but with a divination from Savras, Mystra was able to see the attack coming and prepared herself. She still died, but instead of the Spellplague and destruction of the weave, her death recreated the weave, fixing all the damage it had taken over the years and re-incorporating the Shadow Weave back into itself. Her portfolio was split and she passed control of the Weave and spells to both Selūne and Shar. There is no distinction between magic or Shadow magic anymore, since they are one and the same. Followers of the two goddesses and casters pay service to the one that they most identify with (i.e. Evil wizards will give lip service to Shar, while others will pay respect to Selūne). Azuth and Savras moved to the Gates of the Moon and attend Selūne, while Velsharoon took up with Shar.
This makes perfect sense and if I ever DM a campaign beyond 1385DR I'd probably do something similar. |
"If you have a quality let it define you." |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 18:08:07
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lol, I <3 you, Ashe.
I'm pretty sure you could fix anything. Atleast in your realms she went down fighting, in a blaze of glorious spellfire, no dought!
I still don't get why Ao doesn't just slap Shar back in to her place and promote a new Mystra. I guess there working on a story or something for it.
And I get ya there, Wooly. I'm all up for their personality and character development, but KILLING Mystra?! Not to mention Azuth. He was awesome!
And I deff. agree with you, Gang. Dought weather my games will go beyond 1385 DR, but, if they did it would be something simmiliar, as well. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 22:14:34
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| shar was practically ignored in most novels before 4e so i dont mind.there was too much focus on cyric and bane. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 23:02:30
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| The epic story for 5E will be Cyric escaping his captivity, slaying Shar, reviving Mystra and turning good lol |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 23:23:47
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Alisttair, are you sure your not Savras in disguise? |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 23:24:47
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| with cyric inprisoned does that mean he wont be makin an appearance in 4e.can he still gain power from worshippers. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 04:18:35
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Good questions all, grasshopper.
Alas, there are no answers.
They managed to take out a power player without killing him outright. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 06:32:48
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I posted a brief theory of my own in the ask Ed thread.
Slightly expanded:
Mystra knew that the Weave couldn't contnue to exist, and that things were changing. However, she also knew that as as long as she existed, the Weave would, and with it all the bad things that come with it: dead magc area's, in particular (which could be created as seen in Shadowdale: Scouring of the Weave), the Shadowweave, etc.
Hence, she knew she had to die, to sacrifice herself for the greater good, but also that she needed to prevent somone else (such as Shar) taking control. So her death was not something she didn't see coming - she allowed it to happen, posisbly even wth the aid of Azuth (who migth have been sad but realized the need). Unfortunately, while she knew there would be repercusions, these were greater than she had anticipated, resulting in the (eventual) death of Azuth and Velsharoon, and in the Spellplague. Shar did not gain the power, just as she had arranged, but the Spellplague could not be prevented.
Note that the shadovar are trying to resurrect the Shadowweave, in their fortress over Ordulin, so Shar lost more than she gained.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 11:09:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost King
Alisttair, are you sure your not Savras in disguise?
Of course. Having foreseen the spellplague, I looked into various portal destinations that would save me from the disaster. After a few decades of monitoring the various destinations (some being to Ravenloft, others to Krynn), I decided that the one that led to Elminster's friend, Ed of the Greenwood's realm, would be the ideal location. So I conjured a portal that would lead me to the very country in which he resided, but due east a ways so that he won't find me. I find my divination skills are best suited used from this world, using these contraptions known as computers to inform my worshippers. Maybe I'll go back to Faerun once 6E comes around...  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 12:38:33
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| Y'know, there's a part of me that cries when I think about how, when new editions come out (or WotC needs a quick inflow of cash), they will look at all the previous lore they have and 'mine' it. Bringing back dead gods and NPCs and such, just to make a quick buck. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 13:26:47
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Of course they will. No one who heads corperations or runs big times operations does anything out of love for what they are doing. It is a very sad thing. I wasn't done with 3.5e, dang it! *cries*
Furthermore, I didn't want my favorite goddess murdered, especially in her own home.
And, please tell me, Stat-wise, does any one believe that Asmodeus could have killed Azuth? I think it would have been a great battle, but I want to hear what the rest of you think before I gather my own opinion/do some stat comparison. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 13:29:49
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| Oh, it wasn't a great battle. Azuth gone blown up from Dweomerheart when Mystra died and he wound up severely wounded right at Asmodeus' feet. Think the Orc general in Return of the King stabbing the spear into the commander's gut to 'claim' Osgiliath. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 13:32:49
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Well, if he was already at neg's, that explains why! lol
Can't expect a man to fight off an archdevil at neg's...
Still, though. Any god/dess, dying or not, should still have proven difficult to own. Asmodeus is as close to godhood as any lesser diety, though...
Who would win in a fight if they were at their primes? Hehehehehe |
Edited by - Aerik DeVallo on 25 Mar 2009 13:34:36 |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 19:28:04
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Well, Asmodeus could summon a lot more support, so it wouldn't be fair. Think of Mystra in Elminster in Hell.
ALthough, I have a question about your thread in general. Why are you calling it 'betrayal'? Shar was ever the enemy of Mystra, and it's not like Cyric was trusted by her either. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 23:18:05
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Haha, it just sounded cool.
I know they were never friends to begin with, any of them, but it was a betrayal of honor that they just snuck in to Dweomerheart and killed her from behind.
In a sense, Cyric and Shar betrayed all the dieties when they killed Mystra, because a lot of the dieties have spellcasting class levels. Which would mean with the weave destroyed and Mystra gone, none of their arcane magic functioned either, right?
By the by, how is it that none of the dieties residing in Dweomerheart knew that they had entered the realm? Is it because Cyric and Shar are both greater dieties and just blocked their senses? Or was magic itself involved? And if that is the question, how would Mystra not have known that magic was being used to cloak something as great as a god? *scratches head* |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 08:09:13
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| What I can't understand is why Shar wasn't punished at all. She was just as guilty as Cyric and got of scot-free. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 09:06:42
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| And what about kelemvor? I dont know if anything else happend after he became the god of death in 3E but shouldn't he be a 'little' pissed about his former lover being killed like that? |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 09:10:11
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to look at that, is to know that Shar is no fool, and unlike Cyric who madly schemes, Shar schemes and acts from the darkness.
and being that Cyric is the prince of lies, who would believe him, and all the forensic evidence pointed to Cyric as all Shar did was pull strings.
She's guilty of the following:
Conspiracy to commit murder
Guilty of conspiracy to commmit genocide
guilty of bad taste
Guilty of murder in the 1st degree
but knowing and proving it are two things.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 09:32:58
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| Kelemvor shouldn't care, if he really took up the personality of the GOd of Death after being accused of failure because of human traits. I mean, he didn't even agree to give Mystra Adon's soul. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Zapato
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 09:38:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
Kelemvor shouldn't care, if he really took up the personality of the GOd of Death after being accused of failure because of human traits. I mean, he didn't even agree to give Mystra Adon's soul.
They way I read it, Kelemvor didn't took op the god of death's personality but rather his portfolio, and decided to become a 'new' god of death in showing that death is only natural and nothing creepy.
As for Adon's soul. Adon WAS a non-believer. Hence he had to go with Kelemvor and not Mystra. Though he indeed could have shown some more human emotions on that point.
Ah well, trouble in paradise huh  |
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."
-Conan the barbarian on what is best in life |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36894 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 13:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmagus Brandon
By the by, how is it that none of the dieties residing in Dweomerheart knew that they had entered the realm? Is it because Cyric and Shar are both greater dieties and just blocked their senses? Or was magic itself involved? And if that is the question, how would Mystra not have known that magic was being used to cloak something as great as a god? *scratches head*
It's another of those unanswered questions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 14:09:19
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| Which make the whole 4e concept even more annoying, as already said in the famous rants of Helm. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 15:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
What I can't understand is why Shar wasn't punished at all.
Because she's WotC's favorite goddess.
Yes, that was tongue-in-cheek, but I have my reasons for saying that... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 26 Mar 2009 15:13:04 |
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Aerik DeVallo
Seeker
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 18:36:02
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4e annoy's me, too, but my opinion is ultimately bias because me and 3.5e FR are BFF's...
Why would she be WoTC favorite goddess? She's NOT EVEN Mystra...lol
I don't know, guys. I suppose it's not up to us in the long run. Still, I'd like to see a novel come out about a gods-war or something of that nature. I would expect no less than eight books on the story lol. |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 10:17:37
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As I have posted elsewhere I believe Cyric wasthe one betrayed by Shar. And when he is released(which will be a lot sooner than the 998 years he has left trust me) revenge shall be his. BTW A question for those more familiar with law and justice than I may be. Since Tyr is the one who pronounced judgment on Cyric and Tyr commited murder himself(I.e the killing of Helm) shouldn't all his judgements and decisions be questioned? Thus giving Cyric a new trial? And when he killed Leira, the crime was made known by Ao who claimed Cyric was only acting as his portfolio required and was therefore not punished. Why was he punished for Mystra's murder.
I was under the impression that a Deity could only be tried for acting against or outside their portfolio. For example Cyric claiming he was the god of dawn. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 23:29:07
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| As per Rich Baker, AO is more or less being ignored in 4E. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Cyric and Shar's Most Foul Betrayal
