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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 20:37:22
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hello,
I have a lore question. I know that Kelemvor is the god of the dead, of the Fearunian panthon. But what of the other gods of the dead? For example, Seheninia Moonbow, she is the elven deity of the dead, IIRC, and thus wouldn't elves be judged by her and not kelemevor? or does everyone in the FR world go and get Judged by Kelemvor? This includes people who may never even heard of him, such as drow in the underdark, peasents in mazetica, and people in Karu-tor((or however you spell that asian based place))
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2009 : 20:58:41
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This has always been my rant about the 3e planar changes and the Faerun deity even back in 2e. :) In 3e, Kel judged all of the Faithless or False and I believe in 4e, but I don't own any of the 4e material, he now judges ALL dead.
That said, even in 3e the other deities of the other pantheons judge their own dead unless those souls are Faithless or False. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 01:43:10
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4E realmslore
The Afterlife - p65 FRCG
The souls of those who die travel through the Shadowfell to the Fugue Plane. There they await judgment. Some pass out of creation before any ruling comes, others after. Where these souls go not even the gods know. One that has strong faith and capabilities might be taken to the dominion of its deity, to serve him or her beyond life. Others remain on the Fugue Plane as aides to the god of death. A few cling to the Shadowfell or to the world, continuing on as ghosts or other insubstantial undead.
Kelemvor -Lord of the Dead - Unaligned Greater God p 151 FRCG
Kelemvor presides over the passage from life to death,judging the faithless and the false and apportioning souls to their proper fate in the afterlife.
There are a few more mentions of folks fates in the afterlife throughout the source books as well. |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 03:00:20
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I don't exactly like 4e lore, they for example got rid of Seheninia Moonbow >.> I loved her. anyways, not counting that, what does it say in 2nd edition about this subject?
for example if an elf was to die, would she go to the fongue plane and meet Sehenina, and if she was a good elf, a faithful of the salderine, go to Avanador. but if she was a false, would Seheninia judge them? or does only lord kelemovor cover the faithless and false? |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 03:25:34
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Here's the way I see it: The dead go to the death deity of their Pantheon, i.e., those worshipping elven deities are judged by the Seldarine (Shehanine), those worshipping dwarven gods are judged by the Morndinsamman (Dumathoin), and those who worship the faerunian pantheon go to Kelemvor. What is important to recall here, is that for these purposes, the faerunian pantheon is the 'default pantheon'. So, if you were an elf who was Faithless or False, you aren't judged by Shehanine, because you weren't a worshipper of her pantheon. The very status of being Faithless or False sends you to Kel, regardless of your race.
I don't know if any of the above is canon, but it makes sense to me.
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How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 03:41:03
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In 2e you went to your deity or if you didn't worship a deity you went to the plane of your alignment, least using the rules from Planescape and some other material from 2e.
Yes, the idiotic Faithless and False was added during the 1e/2e cross-over but it wasn't really until 3e that the Faithless/False and Kel judging them was expanded on.
As I've argued before, it doesn't make sense to me that Kel judges races that aren't involved in the Faerun pantheon. As I've said, that like having a Norse judged by a Greek deity. Doesn't make sense to me at all.
Its also worth noting that the Faithless do believe in the deities, they just pay them lip service but some also deny all deities, which, again, to me, makes no sense due to past replies that Ed has written about because hardly NO one in the Realms is idiotic enough to not believe in the deities when, especially during the ToT's, deities have actually walked Toril. Plus deities have divine casters, which shows people that the gods exist and are real. So, for me, it's hard to imagine someone in the Realms going, nay, I don't believe that deities exist!
So, if an elf pays lip service to the elven pantheon, for example, it doesn't make sense to me that the god of the dead/death of the Faerun pantheon is the only one who can judge that elf.
The False, on the other hand, believe in deities, they just betrayed their deities.
This is according to the FRCS. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
I don't exactly like 4e lore, they for example got rid of Seheninia Moonbow >.> I loved her. anyways, not counting that, what does it say in 2nd edition about this subject?
for example if an elf was to die, would she go to the fongue plane and meet Sehenina, and if she was a good elf, a faithful of the salderine, go to Avanador. but if she was a false, would Seheninia judge them? or does only lord kelemovor cover the faithless and false?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Mar 2009 04:03:00 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 19:12:11
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The way I see it... after a certain point, you just can't go 100% by the book on anything because of contradictions and just plain nonsense creeping in.
Gods of the dead should only hold sway in the region their pantheon holds sway. In the case of racial dieties (such as with elves), the racial diety holds sway over their respective races. End of story. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2009 : 22:58:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
In 2e you went to your deity or if you didn't worship a deity you went to the plane of your alignment, least using the rules from Planescape and some other material from 2e.
This particular rule is the one that always made the most sense to me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 11:31:22
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| What happens if an evil person worships a good god? (and I mean worship, not just lip service) |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 12:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This has always been my rant about the 3e planar changes and the Faerun deity even back in 2e. :) In 3e, Kel judged all of the Faithless or False and I believe in 4e, but I don't own any of the 4e material, he now judges ALL dead.
That said, even in 3e the other deities of the other pantheons judge their own dead unless those souls are Faithless or False.
Oddly enough, I think the Realms BADLY needs this lack of cultural autonomy, just like in real life. It makes the Realms seem more realistic when worshippers and philosophers (and DMs for that matter)have to argue about where ya go. 4th Ed kinda robbed us of that by condensing the pantheons so much. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 14:53:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Gods of the dead should only hold sway in the region their pantheon holds sway. In the case of racial dieties (such as with elves), the racial diety holds sway over their respective races. End of story.
I'm pretty sure that's how it goes. You never hear of elves that worship elven deities on the Fugue plane; if I remember correctly, Arvandor isn't so much a death plane as just more of a continuation of life on another plane, as the elves are concerned. Elves of all alignments go there, I think, as long as they worship one of the elven deities. They go to the Fugue Plane only if they worship a human god as far as I'm concerned. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 16:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
What happens if an evil person worships a good god? (and I mean worship, not just lip service)
I'd say the same thing as if a good mortal worshiped a neutral or evil god, they would still go to that deities realm. For example, there are many evil aligned wizards who worshiped Mystra and or Azuth and those mortals should have gone to those deities when they died. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 16:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This has always been my rant about the 3e planar changes and the Faerun deity even back in 2e. :) In 3e, Kel judged all of the Faithless or False and I believe in 4e, but I don't own any of the 4e material, he now judges ALL dead.
That said, even in 3e the other deities of the other pantheons judge their own dead unless those souls are Faithless or False.
Oddly enough, I think the Realms BADLY needs this lack of cultural autonomy, just like in real life. It makes the Realms seem more realistic when worshippers and philosophers (and DMs for that matter)have to argue about where ya go. 4th Ed kinda robbed us of that by condensing the pantheons so much.
Indeed! 3e started that, least in my opinion, with the expanding text about the Faithless and False. I can't really comment on 4e because well, I don't own the books and I don't feel comfortable addressing the planar and pantheon changes. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 19:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'd say the same thing as if a good mortal worshiped a neutral or evil god, they would still go to that deities realm. For example, there are many evil aligned wizards who worshiped Mystra and or Azuth and those mortals should have gone to those deities when they died.
I concur. This is why what Cyric does is so scary. You can be a goodly Tyrran Paladin, have him deceive you, and then end up in his realm. It's an ebsolutely frightening prospect in Toril that is fun to play with in game/ |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 19:37:29
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you know, I do recall some talk elsewhere in threads where some developer whose name I dont remember stating that there was some stuff that was not cannon in the FRCG.
however the feeling was that tooo was NDA but is rumored to be the afterlife part.
go with the previous edition of the afterlife part |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2009 : 22:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
you know, I do recall some talk elsewhere in threads where some developer whose name I dont remember stating that there was some stuff that was not cannon in the FRCG.
I would love to see an exact quote where a designer said part of a setting-specific sourcebook wasn't canon. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2009 : 00:24:20
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ummm strike that.
but if total memory doesnt fail, the exact phrase on that was at a convention, and was relaid..
so delete my posts on this or not, at your own leisure. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 21:54:05
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As I recall, when one dies, elf, human, orc or otherwise, they go to the Fugue Plane. They are to resort to their teachings and pray to their god to be called upon. Groups of similiar followers find each other and create prayer circles. The servants of the various gods go to the Fungue Plane and put out a call across the plane. This call attracts their faithful to them, where they are taken to their deity's home plane.
I see this as the FIRST judgement placed upon a soul. This judgement is rendered by the soul themself, and the servant. If one is not following their teachings, they wander the plane, confused. Eventually they find themselves at the gates of the City of Judgement. There they are judged by Kelemvor to be either False or Faithless.... the only two reasons that someone would endup before him.
This is what I got from the book "Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad", if I'm recalling correctly.
The thing that always bothered me is the source of all the faithless, so many that they could build a huge wall that surrounds the city.
It is what actually drew me to this thread. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
Edited by - Wenin on 25 Dec 2009 01:15:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 01:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by xaviera
Myconids go to the Fungus Plane.
sorry, couldn't resist 
While offered in jest, I've actually speculated to some degree about where dead myconids end up [especially because I've a particular fondness for the fungus-men].
Essentially, I see most dead myconids buried among/beneath the expanse of Araumycos -- whereupon the fungal material of their make-up adds to the overall living mass that is the oldest creature on Toril. This underlines, further, that Araumycos truly is an awesome entity that even exists beyond the scope of gods to comprehend, since even they cannot interpret what the final result of this racial joining will mean.
I've suggested also, that the internment of dead myconid souls affect, slightly, the debatable level of sentience for the creature. Not a collective, mind you. Rather, each myconid soul maintains a certain degree of autonomy within the spiritual lattice of Araumycos -- able to offer suggestions and ideas, but the massive creature's will remains dominant. However, that's mostly because I've got plans for Araumycos in my Realms that really won't take effect for at least another millennia. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2009 : 21:23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
However, that's mostly because I've got plans for Araumycos in my Realms that really won't take effect for at least another millennia.
Knowing you, I have to wonder if that's in-game time or realtime! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2009 : 23:39:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
However, that's mostly because I've got plans for Araumycos in my Realms that really won't take effect for at least another millennia.
Knowing you, I have to wonder if that's in-game time or realtime!
Well, you know I've also been studying the ways of lichdom.
These things take time, after all.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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death and where one goes
