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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 05:08:50
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now that is ridiculous.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 05:24:32
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| Oh as to lore, most of it was covered already, however I did not see mention of the dark Elves being green elves just a darker green. This provided by the Grand History of the Realms. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 12 Mar 2009 05:25:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 06:32:39
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
But out of curiosty, how many players have you gamed with or talked with that wanted to play nothing but non evil drow, aasimars and tieflings, and gensai, and or anything else but whats in the core race sections??
All of them. That's why I stopped playing.
-- George Krashos
Really? That's too bad...
Me, I'd not mind getting to play a genasi or a tiefling -- but I'd be far more likely to roll up a human, half-elf, elf, or dwarf, especially depending on party composition. I do like some of the exotic races, but they only stay exotic when they remain few in number.
In fact, one of the few complaints I had about the Rogue Dragons trilogy was the composition of the party. Any of the oddball-race characters would have worked fine as the lone oddball in the group, but having so many of them in one group was very distracting for me.
And I've never wanted to play a non-evil drow. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 09:10:39
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Firstly, on the Nether Scrolls, they were originally discovered by the Netherese in the ruins of an Aryvandaaryan city. That doesn't necessarily mean that the elves of Aryvandaar had and used the Nether Scrolls. You can assume that they did but have no proof to support that. The sarrukh Arthindol (the Terraseer) may just have easily planted them there for the humans to find.
-- George Krashos
Hm ... and here was me thinking that the Nether Scrolls were simply relicts of the Aryvaandar Empire, written by their Elven High Mages - since that made a lot of sense to me. Should take Serpent Kingdoms up again, or TGHotR, for that matter. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 12 Mar 2009 09:13:46 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 09:20:54
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well I thought that the city the Netherese found them in was a crown war era ruin.
which still leaves me to stand by the sun elves found them and left them.
on the other hand, Georges old man Teraseer left it for some greedy human to find makes since too, and so did the Branded Lord granting them to the Vyshaan dogs of war |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 10:39:05
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Personally, elves in general kind of make me sick of hearing about them. They're boring and always looked at for every pivotal event in ANY campaign setting as the saviors of the world. I'm glad back in the day only one of the seven sisters was an Elf and that she was the only Chosen that was an Elf.
I would be completely shocked if say a gnome or a dwarf were the only people that could save a campaign setting from perishing into nothingness for a change. Not an aasimar, tiefling, half-dragon...i mean dragonborn, and the like. Of course, humans should always be the common hero that deals with the headaches of all the other races and ends up getting them to work together.
That's the humans job, play moderator for all the ultra-extreme races that end up harming more then they help. At least with humans, wars stay small and don't usually wipe out whole peoples and civilizations in one night. Karsus was a fluke and if you notice not one nation afterwards accomplished it again. (Not saying they didn't impact or cause a lot of harm...just not in total mass destruction of an entire region just to kill bad governments).
And before I'm hit with the "well dwarves and gnomes are just like the other races too" remark, let me see...yeah no dwarven empire wiped out anyone with magic and neither did the gnomes. So really, they are probably the most innocent two races in faerun considering they have not resorted in mass genocide or endgame spells of mass destruction.
Anyways, not bashing but seriously elves aren't that great. But don't compare all races to them because by far even though Jhaamdath was commiting genocide of their people, the elves using that spell killed millions of innocent people who may have not had any knowledge to the fact it was happening or simply traders from far off lands. So here is the question, "Is commiting an evil act to stop an evil act really a good act?"
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 13:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
In addition to which, of course, 99.9% of drow have probably done something that should/would have earned them a death sentence - and they're likely to do so again, which is what causes that 98% of the population to attempt to kill them on sight.
This is very true. While it may be unsavory, a LOT of adventurers, good or evil, have reason for attacking drow on sight. They're supposed to be one of those irredeemably evil races, and not a lot of people would know better.
:( Conversely, one of my pet peeves is when people ignore drow in a city, and act as if they're just another of the population. There is a reason Drizzt his his identity in those books with his mask. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 14:32:06
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Don't forget though that Drizzt's legend is growing. Enough that Jarlaxle was able to pass himself off as Drizzt by just being nice to villagers.
He's not world-renown, but enough tales are spreading that he might be able to get into Waterdeep (although with lots of people 'watching' him) circa 1385 DR.
Edit: This actually fits in with a theory or two as to why Lolth would 'suffer' Drizzt's continued bane against the drow. His actions have allowed many people to 'think twice' when dealing with drow and thus gain a foothold on the surface world where none existed before... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 12 Mar 2009 14:34:11 |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 14:55:14
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To just end this back and forth of who is annoyed with what. It is merely situational and depending on the law of the lands and where the drow are at. If a lone drow is in Westgate, whoever it is probably not going to get killed on sight by a mob. Why? It is a city of criminals. He/she is probably there doing business, so no one would care unless they're working with their enemy.
Most civilized lands wouldn't kill a lone drow in their city, vigilantes may, but there are so many law enforcers in big cities and the "civilized" lands they wouldn't need to worry about one lone drow. However, in the frontier, totally different response. While ignorant people are rampant across any fictional or this very real world, it is always the frontier where laws give very little protection. More then likely a drow will get killed on sight then bothered with. Of course if I saw a lone drow unmasked walk right into town without another soul with him and didn't seem the least be scared to do so...I'd head in the opposite direction. Because more then likely you're dead if you stay there. Just a thought. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 18:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Drow dislike you to your face, Elves do so behind your back.
Heh heh. Case in point:
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Those most powerful in Menzoberranzan spend their days watching over their shoulders, defending against the daggers that would find their backs.
Their deaths usually come from the front. (Homeland, P1)
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Oh, and one of my many pet hates about adventurers in the Realms is what I call the NROR party ("No rhyme or reason"). I think it plainly ridiculous to have drow elves as dime a dozen adventurers. Similarly with genasi and tieflings. Of course this applies more to the pre-4E Realms but I can't imagine that 100 years has changed the attitude of the general Realms population toward drow all that much - it would still be kill on sight in about 98% of places, Faerūn-wide. Well, that's my view at least.
That sounds somewhat similar to the response to orc adventurers described in the main text versus the Prologue of The Orc King. In the main text, set in 1372 DR, goodly leaders like Drizzt and Alustriel consider the Many-Arrows orcs to be changing in character/alignment/etc., and possibly worthy of a peaceful truce. Bruenor and the dwarves are not so sure for most of the book. At any rate, when the order finally comes to kick orc arse, orc (and orc-ogre hybrid) blood pours by the gallon. Old habits and hatreds die hard.
But in the Prologue, c.1472 DR, a band of would-be goodly characters attack an orc party because of those old hatreds and are promptly arrested by Drizzt and his elf bud, Hralien.
It seems that there could quite possibly be some sort of disconnect between the views of once-hated races held by leaders, versus their followers, in the post-Plague Realms. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 12 Mar 2009 18:52:00 |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 19:49:35
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| Well, remember: in post-plague realms, they wants you to be able to be anything easily, so everyone can be special races, and not worry too much about persecution. :( So that definitely makes sense, Beast. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2009 : 20:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Hopefully this won't cause a big to-do here, but I need some help.
Some folks I know of elsewhere online, fantasy and RPG fans, have recently learned about the events in FR involving the 'redemption' of the drow, and, well, they think that making the drow's skin lighter to show that they're good now is kinda a bad idea. To be polite.
I commented that I'd been there and seen that, and they started asking me, "Why did this happen? And how did you guys respond?"
Some of the other questions they hit me with were:
Weren't we shown black-skinned, white-haired drow on the surface Realms before they got cursed and went below? Why did those drow have black skins?
If the 'good' drow got their skins lightened, then why does Drizzt-whatever still have black skin and white hair?
Those are the main two I can remember. If someone can help me with them I'd appreciate it, as these folks want me to explain what exactly happened (from the fannish POV) and I would like some help with this.
Thank you.
The reasoning behind the skin colour changes seems fairly apparent. People (elves) with black skin are 'bad' or 'evil'. People (elves) with light coloured skin are 'good'. Now, since all evil elves don't have black skin, there is obviously some sort of 'original sin' type of situation here. Since Drizzt's skin is still black, we can take this to mean he is an anti-hero who is trying hard to be good, but is really still bad at the core despite his best efforts.
The new Drow skin colour changing lore provides us players with a useful clarification of an old and long debated issue. It is now clear that black skin is a sign of being evil, and that if a Drow turns good their skin colour changes to reflect their change in alignment. This follows a long tradition in western and North American culture of black being associated with evilness and light/white being associated with good. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 00:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
Now, since all evil elves don't have black skin, there is obviously some sort of 'original sin' type of situation here.
Ugh, I hope not. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 02:36:07
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| no, thats just blaming an individual for the crime against kin |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 09:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Don't forget though that Drizzt's legend is growing. Enough that Jarlaxle was able to pass himself off as Drizzt by just being nice to villagers.
He's not world-renown, but enough tales are spreading that he might be able to get into Waterdeep (although with lots of people 'watching' him) circa 1385 DR.
Edit: This actually fits in with a theory or two as to why Lolth would 'suffer' Drizzt's continued bane against the drow. His actions have allowed many people to 'think twice' when dealing with drow and thus gain a foothold on the surface world where none existed before...
IMHO, this part of the Drizzt-phenomenon is talked up far too much. Yes, he killed a few drow. Yes, he did upset the matrons of a city. Yes, his lot managed to kill half a score of Baenre matrons and daughters. BUT that was simply plot-driven and "cheated" stuff. I still assume that this is a very isolated case and his only fame for somesuch will be that which is told by the drow in Menzo (IF these actually know the full story). There will be far more Sheverashan drow hunters that cause them more bother than this guy, who hasn't been down there since ages anyways.
Methinks that two things confronted one another here, the real knowledge of him within Realmspace in-setting versus the fame he acquired as a character outside of it (amongst the readership). As it looks to me, the latter won the day and is now presented as standard in the 4E Realms. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 12:40:53
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| Actually, I always thought his fame was due to his protecting merchants on the road to Mithral Hall and his adventures hunting pirates, not with the battles with Menzo. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 12:52:21
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-Wouldn't his fame in Ten Towns filter down to Luskan and go from there also? The dude has been up and down the Sword Coast in his life. Now in Thay or Thesk (That general area) he wouldnt be known about except maybe in Bards Tales.
-Player knowledge does mess with things. The guys (Two for sure) I game with would try and Kill him for his loot. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 13:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Actually, I always thought his fame was due to his protecting merchants on the road to Mithral Hall and his adventures hunting pirates, not with the battles with Menzo.
Does he? Last novels I read about him saw him roving up and down the land slaying orc warriors by their dozens. At least pre-Spellplague time. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 14:44:24
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| There were actually some years in between. I know he and Catti-brie spent some time on board The Sea Sprite hunting pirates, which is why he is well-known in Waterdeep (although I don't think he ever left the ship while docked there). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 18:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
IMHO, this part of the Drizzt-phenomenon is talked up far too much. Yes, he killed a few drow. Yes, he did upset the matrons of a city. Yes, his lot managed to kill half a score of Baenre matrons and daughters. BUT that was simply plot-driven and "cheated" stuff. I still assume that this is a very isolated case and his only fame for somesuch will be that which is told by the drow in Menzo (IF these actually know the full story). There will be far more Sheverashan drow hunters that cause them more bother than this guy, who hasn't been down there since ages anyways.
I disagree. In "The Dark Elf Trilogy", Drizzt was a nuisance primarily to his own family, rather than to anyone else. Matron Malice was the one who kept haunting him in Exile (1339 DR)--not Matron Baenre; she could hardly care less. In "Legacy of the Drow", it was Vierna who convinced Baenre to allow a small drow excursion into Mithral Hall (The Legacy), but even then, we are told that Baenre's real purpose there was to prepare to carry out her own personal dream of conquering the dwarf stronghold--not really to carry out revenge against the drow rebel; Drizzt was just a convenient excuse. He really only showed up on Baenre's personal radar when he and Catti-brie dropped the giant stalactite on top of her chapel, embarrassing the hell out of her (1358 DR).
But once she died, her personal angst against him seemed to, as well. By the time of "War of the Spider Queen" (1372 DR), there is little or no mention of Drizzt in Menzo. Jarlaxle toys with Drizzt, as he has toyed with Artemis Entreri, but nothing has come of it. Nobody really seems to care about him from Menzo, anymore. He's just a little spider who wandered too far from the web...
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Actually, I always thought his fame was due to his protecting merchants on the road to Mithral Hall and his adventures hunting pirates, not with the battles with Menzo.
I agree. I'd even reckon that precious few really even care about Menzo politics. They care about what Drizzt can do for their people, today--not what he did to his own people, decades ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Does he? Last novels I read about him saw him roving up and down the land slaying orc warriors by their dozens. At least pre-Spellplague time.
That just adds to his resume of accomplishments in the World Above, which would be of more import to surface-dwellers than his Underdark exploits.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
There were actually some years in between. I know he and Catti-brie spent some time on board The Sea Sprite hunting pirates, which is why he is well-known in Waterdeep (although I don't think he ever left the ship while docked there).
They sailed the ship for ~six years (1359-1364 DR) as described in Passage to Dawn.
Drizzt is said to have openly walked the streets of Waterdeep, despite stares and grumbling from some quarters, in Sea of Swords (1370 DR).
The orc bloodfest ("The Hunter's Blades Trilogy") came along in 1371 DR.
Drizzt wanders the streets of Luskan with abandon in The Pirate King (1376-1377 DR).
And in The Orc King, Drizzt assures us that he will not likely live out the rest of his days in Mithral Hall, but will probably begin wandering the wilds once again. It remains to be seen if RAS will continue writing about his adventures, but Drizzt will apparently be inspiring new tales, in new locales, for a long, long time...
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Methinks that two things confronted one another here, the real knowledge of him within Realmspace in-setting versus the fame he acquired as a character outside of it (amongst the readership). As it looks to me, the latter won the day and is now presented as standard in the 4E Realms.
Now, that I can agree with. It appears that Drizzt's emotional importance with readers has colored his thematic importance with designers, and now there has been too much of a shift toward sheep-in-wolf's-clothing characters.
But Drizzt was so emotionally important precisely because he was so exceptional. As has been pointed out, there's nothing really all that exceptional about such characters anymore when the whole of the Realms become one huge Halloween costume party, where you can be anything you want, without judgment or prejudice... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 20:24:10
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Markus,
You forget that in Evermeet the dark elves before the
fall had slavery and magically experimented on other races.
See Evermeet novel.
Just my two cents.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 22:09:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Methinks that two things confronted one another here, the real knowledge of him within Realmspace in-setting versus the fame he acquired as a character outside of it (amongst the readership). As it looks to me, the latter won the day and is now presented as standard in the 4E Realms.
Actually, I think the standard you're talking about was established long before 4E came along, thanks to the character's popularity.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
There were actually some years in between. I know he and Catti-brie spent some time on board The Sea Sprite hunting pirates, which is why he is well-known in Waterdeep (although I don't think he ever left the ship while docked there).
He must have--I recall in one of his "journal entries", he mentions having dined with the scions of Waterdhavian nobility. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Mar 2009 22:11:08 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 09:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Methinks that two things confronted one another here, the real knowledge of him within Realmspace in-setting versus the fame he acquired as a character outside of it (amongst the readership). As it looks to me, the latter won the day and is now presented as standard in the 4E Realms.
Actually, I think the standard you're talking about was established long before 4E came along, thanks to the character's popularity.
Well, it did not AFAIK became a company - licensed standard for the players within the Realms back then. At least not in the quality as we see it now. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Help explaining the change in the drow
