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Dusty
Acolyte
6 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 04:57:19
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I did search this, but didn't find anything, so...
Background note: this question refers to time ~1368DR if it matters at all for things like wizards not accessing the Weave anymore.
Would it go against canon to say that wizards access the Weave through their mind? (as opposed to wizards accessing the Weave through spell components or kittens or spell-component-kittens or whatnot)
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 07:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
I did search this, but didn't find anything, so...
Background note: this question refers to time ~1368DR if it matters at all for things like wizards not accessing the Weave anymore.
Would it go against canon to say that wizards access the Weave through their mind? (as opposed to wizards accessing the Weave through spell components or kittens or spell-component-kittens or whatnot)
I think the traditional (AD&D) view has always been that PC spellcasters need the spell's components (verbal, somatic, material) not so much because the components are important (except in obvious cases, such as the material component being an item to be transformed, or the spell requiring the caster to touch the target). Using the components (speaking the words, doing the little dance, smelling the bat guano) triggers certain thought patterns that allow the caster to access the weave and use the magic. Kind of the tail wagging the dog, if you want.
This way of thinking also explains why certain creatures are able to use "verbal only" magic (e.g., dragons, nagas). Their minds are structured in such a way that they can trigger the same effects using verbal components only. The minds of creatures possessing innate magical abilities are even more different - they do not need components at all, and can trigger magic just by thought. |
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Dusty
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 18:11:42
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| Makes sense. Thanks. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 18:12:11
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| However, wizards can train themselves (within limits) to access the weave without such components by taking the appropriate feats, such as Silent Spell and Eschew Material Components. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 19:02:18
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Rituals are part of the 'formulae' required to gain access to arcane power, and as Thauramarth has already pointed out, Verbal, Somantic, and material components are all pert of this ritual.
Now, obviously there are ways of getting around the use of components (Dragons eschew somantic all the time), and a wizard can learn these 'deeper truths'.
That opens-up new possibilites; could it be that the materials are just part of a 'short-cut' used by mortals? Could the Weave itself - really just an interface that allows easier use of magic - be little more then a set of short-cuts?
That could mean that a mage who takes all three feats and no longer needs any components is probably damn close to accessing Raw Magic at that point... and those are excatly the mages that would have been able to best-cope with the Spellplague and the changes it wrought.
Oh... and there is a mental aspect as well, and that is the ONLY component that CANNOT be 'eschewed'. You must 'imprint' a pattern into your mind, which is released when the key words and components are used in tandem. When you get to the point of only requiring the mental pattern, then you are most-likely accessing Arcane magic directly, without the need for the Weave.
Just my take... but it would explain how some of those magic-users in the novels are having no problems throwing spells around post-plague, while others can't and/or were driven nuts. Those closest to 'the Truth' were best-able to handle the changes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2009 19:03:38 |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 19:24:46
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Well, even if a wizard has learned Eschew Material Components, Silent Spell, and Still spell, that doesn't mean the wizard is an über-caster akin to dragons and other innate casters... after all, using these feats makes the spells used effectively higher level.
Also, I wouldn't think these feats actually allow a wizard to bypass using the Weave to access raw magic, but rather are tapping into the Weave by force of will rather than using verbal, somatic, and material keys to unlock the power. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2009 : 21:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I think the traditional (AD&D) view has always been that PC spellcasters need the spell's components (verbal, somatic, material) not so much because the components are important (except in obvious cases, such as the material component being an item to be transformed, or the spell requiring the caster to touch the target). Using the components (speaking the words, doing the little dance, smelling the bat guano) triggers certain thought patterns that allow the caster to access the weave and use the magic.
No, the components are more than mental adjuncts in the original conception:quote:
There are also four basic parts to magic: The verbal or uttered spell, the somatic or physical movement required for the conjuration, the psychic or mental attitude necessary to cast the spell, and the material adjuncts by which the spell, can be completed (to cite an obvious example, water to raise a water elemental). It was assumed that the D & D spell would be primarily verbal, although in some instances the spell would require some somatic component also (a fire ball being an outstanding example). The psychic per se would play little part in the basic magic system, but a corollary, mnemonics, would. The least part of magic would be the material aids required, and most of those considered stored or aided magic, so as to enable its more immediate employment, rather than serving to prolong spell casting time or encumber the player using these aids.
(Gary Gygax, "The Dungeons & Dragons Magic System", The Strategic Review #7)quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Would it go against canon to say that wizards access the Weave through their mind? (as opposed to wizards accessing the Weave through spell components or kittens or spell-component-kittens or whatnot)
I think 'mind' may be too narrow -- I suspect it would be as true to say that one meets the Weave through one's soul, body, or central nervous system.quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
However, wizards can train themselves (within limits) to access the weave without such components by taking the appropriate feats, such as Silent Spell and Eschew Material Components.
Realmslore hasn't really gone into how and to what extent mages achieve streamlined spellcasting analogous to those 3E feats, though. Many of those cases may be more accurately handled by compound spell-casting: spell trigger and other 2E 'metamagic' spells.
People keep talking about 'raw magic' in the context of the Realms, but apart from a few oversimplified references in Magic of Faerūn, Realmslore doesn't. The energy used by magic isn't some alien substance but the energy patterns of Toril. |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Mar 2009 04:46:35 |
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Dusty
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 02:02:37
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So the reason I asked this is because if someone were to try using one of Vile Darkness's Mindrape spells, the description of the spell makes it seem that since you can change someone's alignment or personality by invading their mind, you should be able to break someone's Weave connection also if they fail a Will save (!!!).
Which might be a nice plot device, maybe, except that Mindrape is 9th level and I don't like using 9th level spells very much. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 05:04:46
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Using your mind in a particular way is certainly necessary, if not sufficient, for wielding Art, and someone made to forget they could wouldn't be able to until they remembered. There are many lower-level ways of temporarily stopping another's mind from working properly, and it's reasonable that a 9th-level one could do so permanently (though not irrevocably). But bear in mind that you not only have to beat their will save but all their layers of magical wardings and contingencies. That spell is essentially what Nergal does to Elminster in Elminster in Hell.
So it stops them casting spells, but breaking someone's access to the Weave on a deeper level would require a specialized magic, an even greater effect than, say, the rare and mighty Mystra's crowning touch. |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Mar 2009 05:11:00 |
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Quick Weave-Human Interface Question
