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brooksthegreat
Acolyte
5 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 23:28:00
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Good evening!
This is my first post on candlekeep, but after running through the search function for some time I have given up and am just going to post my questions outright.
Is there any real, in-depth information the northmen? Most of the work Ive come across in the Savage Frontier, The North, etc. seems to focus far more on the Uthgardt while sort of just vaguely hinting that the Northmen are cleverly disguised norse and moving on.
I keep running up into the problem, I think.. that the supplements do wonderful jobs of telling the Player objectively and clinically certain bits of information, but they don't do as good of a job of giving the feel and flavor..the nitty-gritty details of how the characters might see their lives.
I want to get into the psychology of the character. The background, the life, the modality of the character. Specifically, I'm looking for information on the naming, language, political/social structure, traditions, and religion/belief system of the Northmen.
Firstly, what do the northlanders actually call themselves? Would they really refer to themselves as being "people of the north?" Every culture believes itself to be the center point of reference in their own lore. They are the "northmen" really only in comparison to the rest of the world.
Next, what is the actual political/social structure of the Northlanders? I know that Ruathym is their ancestral home.. but its taken over by pirates and things as a governing body and the actual Northmen have for the most part migrated to the Moonshaes. There are major kingdoms, but are these strong powerful monarchies or is there the petty dynast system the norse actually had, with another self-styled king, emperor, etc over each hill. I've always liked that all it really took in their system was the success in battle and natural charisma to draw enough warriors, women and wealth to you to start your own Great Hall.
Are there social castes of any sort?
Also: I've read that there is no agriculture. How is that possible? The norse weren't really fans of agriculture - it was seen as a less noble pursuit than the cultivating of cattle, for instance - but it was there.. I'm amazed there can be any real population at all without at least basic agriculture to support it.
What is the religious life of the northmen like? Their belief system and traditions? I'm assuming from the cultural references, they share the Norse military ethos and culture of heroism, great deeds, etc. How does religion come into play? It says that they aren't a particularly religious people - another place that the norse were more or less whole-sale imported. But what is the general, individual relationship to the gods? From what I've read, their pantheon consists of honoring Auril, Tempus, Umberlee and Valkur. I'm specifically interested in Tempus. Do the northmen have their own names for any of these gods? I know tempus is called other things in other cultures in the realms. Is there any specifi northmen mythology based around him? How is this worship actually performed? What about treatment of ancestors? Veneration, Worship? Do they have any cultural holidays or other flavor around their religious structure? Rituals?
What about general customs? Any unusual mannerisms or idiosyncrasies? Rights of passage?
Is there a north star in the realms? (that last one was slightly unrelated)
Okay. I think that's enough for one sitting. AND... if possible, I'm really only interested in 3.5e and prior. 4e makes my face bleed.
Thanks in advance for all the help!
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"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority"
-Gerald Massey |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2009 : 23:30:27
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These sound like good questions to shoot over to Ed Greenwood.
Unfortunately I know little about these folks and so don't have any answers of my own for you. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 00:30:11
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| Welcome to Candlekeep! |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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brooksthegreat
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 00:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
These sound like good questions to shoot over to Ed Greenwood.
Unfortunately I know little about these folks and so don't have any answers of my own for you.
Should I meander over to his area and repost, or hope he finds it here? |
"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority"
-Gerald Massey |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 01:30:27
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| About the only one of your questions I can answer is that the Uthgardt (if that is who you are talking about) call Tempus "Tempos". It's a minor difference in the pronunciation. If you are interested, if you have the Icewind Dale computer game, talk to the head priest in the temple in the first town, and he calls the god Tempos at some point in the conversation (maybe throughout, I can't remember exactly). So, you probably are best off asking Ed for the rest of it. |
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brooksthegreat
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 01:36:28
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
About the only one of your questions I can answer is that the Uthgardt (if that is who you are talking about) call Tempus "Tempos". It's a minor difference in the pronunciation. If you are interested, if you have the Icewind Dale computer game, talk to the head priest in the temple in the first town, and he calls the god Tempos at some point in the conversation (maybe throughout, I can't remember exactly). So, you probably are best off asking Ed for the rest of it.
Actually, the Uthgardt are one of the northern tribes.. but they are more totem-barbarian as far as i can tell and are spoken about seperately from the "northmen" (who are basically vikings)in the 2e lore. As well, I think they are of different genetic stock in some fashion.. the Uthgardt have darker hair and features, IIRC whereas the Northmen are more scandanavian - light eyes, light hair for the most part.
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"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority"
-Gerald Massey |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 03:38:38
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Are you wanting info on the Northmen of the Moonshaes, or the Barbarian tribes of the North?
TSR 9217 - FR2 - The Moonshae Isles has some information, as well as the Moonshae trilogy |
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brooksthegreat
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 04:20:19
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| The viking-northmen of Ruathym that eventually settle in the moonshaes |
"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority"
-Gerald Massey |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 08:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by brooksthegreat
Good evening!
This is my first post on candlekeep, but after running through the search function for some time I have given up and am just going to post my questions outright.
Is there any real, in-depth information the northmen? Most of the work Ive come across in the Savage Frontier, The North, etc. seems to focus far more on the Uthgardt while sort of just vaguely hinting that the Northmen are cleverly disguised norse and moving on.
I keep running up into the problem, I think.. that the supplements do wonderful jobs of telling the Player objectively and clinically certain bits of information, but they don't do as good of a job of giving the feel and flavor..the nitty-gritty details of how the characters might see their lives.
I want to get into the psychology of the character. The background, the life, the modality of the character. Specifically, I'm looking for information on the naming, language, political/social structure, traditions, and religion/belief system of the Northmen.
Firstly, what do the northlanders actually call themselves? Would they really refer to themselves as being "people of the north?" Every culture believes itself to be the center point of reference in their own lore. They are the "northmen" really only in comparison to the rest of the world.
Next, what is the actual political/social structure of the Northlanders? I know that Ruathym is their ancestral home.. but its taken over by pirates and things as a governing body and the actual Northmen have for the most part migrated to the Moonshaes. There are major kingdoms, but are these strong powerful monarchies or is there the petty dynast system the norse actually had, with another self-styled king, emperor, etc over each hill. I've always liked that all it really took in their system was the success in battle and natural charisma to draw enough warriors, women and wealth to you to start your own Great Hall.
Are there social castes of any sort?
Also: I've read that there is no agriculture. How is that possible? The norse weren't really fans of agriculture - it was seen as a less noble pursuit than the cultivating of cattle, for instance - but it was there.. I'm amazed there can be any real population at all without at least basic agriculture to support it.
What is the religious life of the northmen like? Their belief system and traditions? I'm assuming from the cultural references, they share the Norse military ethos and culture of heroism, great deeds, etc. How does religion come into play? It says that they aren't a particularly religious people - another place that the norse were more or less whole-sale imported. But what is the general, individual relationship to the gods? From what I've read, their pantheon consists of honoring Auril, Tempus, Umberlee and Valkur. I'm specifically interested in Tempus. Do the northmen have their own names for any of these gods? I know tempus is called other things in other cultures in the realms. Is there any specifi northmen mythology based around him? How is this worship actually performed? What about treatment of ancestors? Veneration, Worship? Do they have any cultural holidays or other flavor around their religious structure? Rituals?
What about general customs? Any unusual mannerisms or idiosyncrasies? Rights of passage?
Is there a north star in the realms? (that last one was slightly unrelated)
Okay. I think that's enough for one sitting. AND... if possible, I'm really only interested in 3.5e and prior. 4e makes my face bleed.
Thanks in advance for all the help!
Well, if you are to draw the lines to Real world Norse there are a few things you should know. Farming was the main way of life in all the Scandinavian lands, with fishing and crafts as common variations. Most warriors were farmers in one form or another.
The political form was based around the Thing were freemen gathered and made decisions. The kings power opposite these was limited until well into the age of Christianity. As raiders both kings and captains had power, but in local affair he was as dependant on local support as the weaker kings during the feudal age. Especially as there was no distinction between sons born within marriage and outside; this made it vital to have strong support against relatives (or rumoured such)who might fit the freeman class better.
The Norse were religious enough, but it was a personal thing, combined with larger ritualistic festivities on certain days.
Then again the Northmen of the Realms are more or less the Hollywood version with horned helmets and braids all over the place running around in loincloths in the cold, so I would say that anything goes if you feel like it. Just make them typical fantasy barbarians and you moire or less got it.
for an OK D&D version of norse culture the Vikings book for 2ed. would be a great aid to you. Its not historically correct, but the feel is right and it gives a few good ideas for a fantasy version of the culture.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 18:22:57
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The closest I could find to the 'pure' original indegenious peoples of the north (pre-Sundering) are the Reghedmen who live in the wastes to the north and east of Ten Towns (Icewind Dale).
They are very 'Nordic' looking - much more so then any other group, with the stereo-typical blonde hair and blue eyes. Even the Rauthym - who were part of the same original ethnic group, have become ever-so-slightly 'polluted' over the years, with their penchant for raiding (and taking females captive, slung over their shoulders like the true 'Vikings'), and the ones in the Moonshaes (the Northmen) even more so, with the Ffolk (mostly of Tethyrian stock) blood being heavily mixed-in.
The Reghedmen are kept 'pure' due to their isolation, and probably best-represent the mythical 'Advanced humans' that disappeared back when the world was Sundered (twice, actually... now that I think about it...)
I'm thinking a lost civilization (often hinted at in canon) buried under the Northern Icecap, and that the axial tilt of the planet was lessened by the Sundering, causing the poles to 'Freeze over' and creating an 'Ice Age' of sorts.
Just my musings, but that would seem like the most likely place to find our FR 'Vikings' - frozen beneath the northern Ice. I had thought to establish a relationship to the Hartsvale humans, but the GHotR has them being of Netherease stock. 
However, with the possible exception of Tyr, I think it is far more likely that FR's 'Northmen' used the Finnish Pantheon, rather then the Norse one.
Once again, just my take on things - make of it what you will. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2009 19:09:25 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 18:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by brooksthegreat
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
These sound like good questions to shoot over to Ed Greenwood.
Unfortunately I know little about these folks and so don't have any answers of my own for you.
Should I meander over to his area and repost, or hope he finds it here?
Definitely repost the questions in his thread. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 18:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by brooksthegreat
Actually, the Uthgardt are one of the northern tribes.. but they are more totem-barbarian as far as i can tell and are spoken about seperately from the "northmen" (who are basically vikings)in the 2e lore. As well, I think they are of different genetic stock in some fashion.. the Uthgardt have darker hair and features, IIRC whereas the Northmen are more scandanavian - light eyes, light hair for the most part.
Uthgardt mainly have light eyes, by the way, and have their roots in Ruathym as well, IIRC. So, they actually aren't that different genetically from the Northmen you're talking about.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 19 Feb 2009 18:40:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 19:13:47
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Right - the Uthgardt are a mix of the early Rauthym and Nethrease blood, whilst the Northmen (of the Moonshaes) are a mix of the Rauthym and the Ffolk (mostly of Tethyrian stock). Both are at least 50% Rauthym, but have other 'things' added in over the countless centuries (including a little Orc, in the case of the Uthgardt).
The Luskans would be an even more diluted variant, because of the Urbanization of those people. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Call to the Northmen! (erm. and questions)
