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Originally posted by Wrigs13


I have a player who has asked me about an ascetic character using the vow of poverty feat. Has anyone successfully used a VoP character in their game?

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Is the VoP actually balanced in a long term game against the standard treasure progression for pc's?

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How poor do you have to be? If you go to the pub after a long adventure can you buy a round of drinks? I know at higher levels you don't need to eat but thats not the same as not wanting to eat. The vow of abstinance is a seperate feat.

It says that you should have enough money, food and equipment to survive for the next 24 hours, but what if you know you are going to be in the wilderness for weeks?

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

If it means the weapon classification why is a mace ok but not a short sword? This means an ascetic can have a 50gp heavy crossbow but not a much cheaper martial weapon.

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Originally posted by ErskineF

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

If it means the weapon classification why is a mace ok but not a short sword? This means an ascetic can have a 50gp heavy crossbow but not a much cheaper martial weapon.

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I can't answer your other questions, but considering just the above, I think you have to look at the cost of simple weapons as a group rather than making a selective comparison. The best ranged martial weapon costs twice as much as the best ranged simple weapon.

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Originally posted by Rabiesbunny


YES. If it is combined with other exalted feats, which it invariably will be as you get free Exalted feats from taking VoP, it makes you nigh invincible. At level 9, my character has the highest AC in my party at 38, her calming aura from another feat is high enough to calm down many NPCs/monsters, and weapons shatter with enough regularity to make it worth it.

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

AC 38? Really? How did you manage that? Is it a stacking of the various AC bonuses? On another matter which of these bonuses count for touch attacks and when your flat footed?

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

Well I suppose my question is what is the purpose of the restriction?

Is it to prevent the ascetic character aquiring an expensive weapon that should really be sold and the money given to poor? Or is it just a game mechanic to limit the amount damage that ascetic character can do?

It seems odd to limit the weapons based on simplisity of use rather than relative value. If the character is trained in martial weapons why not let them use them?

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Originally posted by Kilvan

As a DM, I used a few NPCs with the VoP, but I don't think I would enjoy this feat as a player. Yes, a monk with it is ridiculously powerful, but magic item managing is too much fun. Nothing more satisfying than a brand new magic item, or an artifact (which in theory a PC with VoP COULD use, since an artifact has no "price", am I wrong?).

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Originally posted by ErskineF

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

Well I suppose my question is what is the purpose of the restriction?

Is it to prevent the ascetic character aquiring an expensive weapon that should really be sold and the money given to poor? Or is it just a game mechanic to limit the amount damage that ascetic character can do?

It seems odd to limit the weapons based on simplisity of use rather than relative value. If the character is trained in martial weapons why not let them use them?

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Not having the sourcebook in question, I'm not much help here. All I can do is speculate, which, fortunately, I have no problem doing. My guess is that it's because he's supposed to devote himself to his ascetic tradition and not to studying the art of war.

I agree that a price restriction would make more sense, but "simple weapons" is a convenient pre-existing category.

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

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Originally posted by Kilvan

As a DM, I used a few NPCs with the VoP, but I don't think I would enjoy this feat as a player. Yes, a monk with it is ridiculously powerful, but magic item managing is too much fun. Nothing more satisfying than a brand new magic item, or an artifact (which in theory a PC with VoP COULD use, since an artifact has no "price", am I wrong?).

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Thats a very interesting question.

Is the specific requirement that they nothing of value or nothing of market value?

Isn't there a restriction on using/owning magic items? Does this apply to artifacts?

How about if the arifact is a gift from their patron deity? Surely thats ok

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• You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic or masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick.


• You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties.


• You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag.


• You may carry and use a spell component pouch.


• You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magical items used on your behalf--you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand scroll or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly.


• You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even one round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff.

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Originally posted by HawkinstheDM

Here are the specifics of what you can and cannot own (as per the Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 48):

• You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic or masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick.


• You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties.


• You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag.


• You may carry and use a spell component pouch.


• You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magical items used on your behalf--you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand scroll or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly.


• You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even one round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand or staff.

It seems rather straightforward to me.

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

Also on the point of magic potions, you can't own any but you can drink as many as you like as long as you sent you mate to the shop to buy them, and you con someone else into carrying them.

Doesn't quite seem the right sort of attitude.

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We call them mendicant friars because they lived mostly by begging, but in fact Francis expected his companions to work at any menial task they could before they asked for alms. He did not condemn property itself; he regarded it as a bond from which apostles should be free. [...]

The vast enterprise had to have a home office, a permanent staff, constitution, and bylaws. Administrators took the place of saints. The demon of property threatened Lady Poverty. The citizens of Assisi built a residence for the friars. Francis climbed to the roof and threw down the tiles. A few years later, when a church was being built to honor Francis, one of his followers, Brother Leo, smashed the offertory box. For this offence he was publicly whipped.

Francis became desolate and heartsick at seeing his holy anarchy made businesslike. He retreated to the mountains and spent his time in communion with God and nature. [...]

Francis died in 1226. In two years the giant basilica of Assisi was begun to house the bones of the man who in his life abandoned a hovel because he heard someone call it "his". Because the Franciscan Order was growing at epidemic speed, the church was obliged to provide headquarters for the friars. To circumvent Francis' prohibition of ownership, the church found an argument. In a bull of 1230 the pope declared: "No one is considered to own what he merely possesses, so long as he does not in conscience consider himself as owner." The brothers could then possess without owning [...]

The order broke apart. The Spiritual Franciscans, the fundamentalists who remembered Francis, held to the original ideals. The great majority accepted the necessity for regularization, for learning and scholarship, for obedience to the pope. They remained mendicants, though a friar who might not touch money was often followed by a servant rattling a money box. It was said that people feared to meet a friar as they feared to meet a robber. (The Middle Ages, Morris Bishop (pp. 166-168)

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Originally posted by Wrigs13
AC 38? Really? How did you manage that? Is it a stacking of the various AC bonuses? On another matter which of these bonuses count for touch attacks and when your flat footed?

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A PC who has taken a vow of poverty, yet has his friends purchasing and carrying magic items for his use, is very much like the latter sort of Franciscan, and no doubt the public would have the same cynical view of him. So I guess the question I would ask as a DM is whether the VoP is being taken seriously, or whether the player is trying to gain benefits without accepting the associated penalties.

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

Doesn't taking Vow of Peace make the character very hard to play?

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

Ok since the general opinion is that ascetic characters are both playable and game balanced the next question is:

Should they be discussed with the whole group before introduction?

Or is it fair to keep it a bit of a mystery from the other players?

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

If someone makes a character that doesn't quite fit then you have the real world choice of telling someone their carefully crafted character is no good or just ignoring the fact their character is odd and carry on. Not much of a choice with friends really.

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I try to guide players before sessions to avoid obvious problems before the game starts.

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The only concern is that one of the players may be unhappy that one of the other players is better than his once he finds out.

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Originally posted by Wrigs13

What you or I may know to be true does not mean he has to accept it.

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