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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 16:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
If you get a copy of Starwars RPG then you could actually include sith lords, force lightning is my favourite feat   
There is only one game that deserves the name StarWars attached to it, and no d20 has ever set foot in that system.
If you wanna play StarWars grab the old WEG stuff, might be a little difficult to find, but it, IMHO, reflects the reckless pace and heroics of the movies much much better than what Wotzee cooked up |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 17:13:37
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Sadly, we've already invested in all of the Saga books. It isn't too terrible a system at all in my opinion, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't really anxious to see what the new Legacy book has in it.
As for the Zhent Rogue, remember that just because you're a rogue it doesn't necessarily make you a "thief". She's going to be a card-carrying member of the Zhentarim, eventually going into the Zhentarim Spy prestige class, which is right up any rogue's alley.
Here is an exerpt from a sermon my cleric will give at a small town in the Marches:
*ahem*
"Fear. Fear is what keeps our race strong. It's what keeps little children safe from putting their hands on kettles, it's what ensures that violent men think twice before taking the law into their own hands. And it's what we will teach the orcs that dare besiege your walls.
The God of Fear unites us in common purpose, and so long as we are loyal to him we have far less to be afraid of than our foes. Ten thousand strong are the warriors who swear fealty to Lord Bane, and he has made us strong indeed. All you need do is surrender your will to a being who's might and wisdom cannot be fathomed by the likes of you or I, and your enemies will be smashed beneath your heel, and your elders, lovers, and offspring kept safe from all who would harm them.
Freedom? Of what use is freedom? Without true guidance we quibble amongst ourselves, we fragment, we fight senseless wars and fail to contain the spread of famine. Look to the elves, the dwarves, the hin and the gnomes. They do not war among their own, and I'll tell you why;
*ticking off on individual fingers* Corellon, Moradin, Yondalla, and Glittergold. Their gods have unity because they have LEADERSHIP, something that we as humans have lacked for so long.
Too long.
Bane does not want war, he wants peace. Sadly, some idealistic people who worship some idealistic and short-sighted deities refuse to offer themselves willingly, and so must be brought to heel by force. But take heart; it is not some mindless cycle of violence. Since his return, Lord Bane has given his chosen people the guidance and means by which to retake all the territory lost while they were kept under the yoke of the Mad One, and even more beyond that! It is just a matter of time until all of Faerun is brought under one glorious banner.
Benevolent to the loyal, terrible to the wicked, the Black Hand forgets no one."
[Stats: 14 str, 15 con, 10 dex, 16 int, 18 wis, 18 cha] |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
Edited by - Raith on 19 Feb 2009 17:16:12 |
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Zucrous
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 20:49:38
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Ok, as the Zhent thief I must reply and explain myself. I am not a thief anymore, cant be, Zhentil keep has all my passports and because of my excellent skills are now holding me on a leash, instead of throwing me in a dungeon (waste not want not). The point of my character is, to have no loyalty to anyone, but be forced to serve because of conditions out of her control. Fortunatly for me its doing what I love and I get payed the big bucks. This is a drastic turn from any one of my more recent characters, who are outstandingly loyal, honorable and valorous. I think it will be a wonderful change for me and I thoroughly look forward to rabies' campaign.
As for Banites being evil, its a tricky situation atleast how I look at it. Bane himself is evil, that does not make every worshiper he has evil. People will do unthinkable things in the name of peace and stability, and in most cases that is evil. Most of Zenthil keep's conversion as far as I have read at the moment is more about bringing powerful nobles from other nations into the fold, and in the long run just march in with the gates open. War and conquest are in his repertoire, but he is not Hextor, or the wannabe that has popped out of 4th edition. He is an emperor not a warrior. |
-I have transformed my fear and now it serves me. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
If you get a copy of Starwars RPG then you could actually include sith lords, force lightning is my favourite feat
There is only one game that deserves the name StarWars attached to it, and no d20 has ever set foot in that system.
If you wanna play StarWars grab the old WEG stuff, might be a little difficult to find, but it, IMHO, reflects the reckless pace and heroics of the movies much much better than what Wotzee cooked up
Is that the version based on d6's and refers to dice and pips? Played that when I was younger. Those were the good old days |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Zucrous
As for Banites being evil, its a tricky situation atleast how I look at it. Bane himself is evil, that does not make every worshiper he has evil. People will do unthinkable things in the name of peace and stability, and in most cases that is evil. Most of Zenthil keep's conversion as far as I have read at the moment is more about bringing powerful nobles from other nations into the fold, and in the long run just march in with the gates open. War and conquest are in his repertoire, but he is not Hextor, or the wannabe that has popped out of 4th edition. He is an emperor not a warrior.
But pc's are not sheep in the flock under the sway of banes clergy. They are individuals of importance in the world. the ones that make changes and champion causes. In your case you are championing bane and the zhents. As such can you claim to be good? 
While a storm trooper can claim to just be following orders, but a sith lord or a bounty hunter can't hide behind this excuse.  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:21:44
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I'm sure that my CHARACTER can claim to be good, even while I might have some serious questions as to his or her moral stability.
All part of the fun of role playing though! |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Raith
I'm sure that my CHARACTER can claim to be good, even while I might have some serious questions as to his or her moral stability.
All part of the fun of role playing though!
Well anyone can claim to be good. 
I thought you were suggesting you actually were working for the greater good 
Anyway we all know Bane is a big softy really. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:51:41
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| That depends I guess. What do you personally define as "the greater good"? If everyone was united under Bane I suspect that fewer people would be killed, but it would be a stifling way to live. Usually "the greater good" is kind of a creepy phrase. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 22:02:27
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I once used the greater good arguement to kill dozens of evil-doers in their beds, including a bit of torture to find those not currently in their beds. The organisation was completely evil and ruled with absolute tyranny, and at the time the actions seemed justified but in hindsight I really was a rather naughty boy and I doubt even Silvanus would let me off with that.  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Zucrous
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 22:31:55
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| To a pc good is really a point of view. An evil pc rarely refers to himself as evil. A good pc rarely refers to himself as good. They choose actions they seem as best and follow through, im sure that unless they have an actual player's handbook standing in front of them they refer to the tenets of their own beliefs to determine what is right and wrong. A banite priest does not think of himself as evil, but he may think that the acts he is doing in the name of his faith are, and in doing so he is by the phb definition, evil. But if he thinks that what he is doing is for the greater good of mankind, and that in doing so makes him good, that is still evil according to the phb. Its all about actions, rarely about intent in the rules of DnD. |
-I have transformed my fear and now it serves me. |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 05:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
I once used the greater good arguement to kill dozens of evil-doers in their beds, including a bit of torture to find those not currently in their beds. The organisation was completely evil and ruled with absolute tyranny, and at the time the actions seemed justified but in hindsight I really was a rather naughty boy and I doubt even Silvanus would let me off with that.
I'm sure Cyric would have been proud! |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 09:22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zucrous
To a pc good is really a point of view. An evil pc rarely refers to himself as evil. A good pc rarely refers to himself as good. They choose actions they seem as best and follow through, im sure that unless they have an actual player's handbook standing in front of them they refer to the tenets of their own beliefs to determine what is right and wrong. A banite priest does not think of himself as evil, but he may think that the acts he is doing in the name of his faith are, and in doing so he is by the phb definition, evil. But if he thinks that what he is doing is for the greater good of mankind, and that in doing so makes him good, that is still evil according to the phb. Its all about actions, rarely about intent in the rules of DnD.
Don't get me wrong I agree with what you are saying, individuals rarely consider themselves as evil, but most people like to think they are good, don't they? I do. And generally I like to think my pc's are good too. No matter what they may get up too.
The point I am trying to make is that pc's are not normal people. They are by default heroes whos actions and opinions carry significant weight in the game world. 
So even if you think you are bringing villagers under the yoke for the greater good, then at some point you will be forced to impose your tyranical rule by means other than preaching and cohersion. At that point what will your good characters do?
Not saying its a bad idea, in fact individuals who find out that their good works are actually supporting evil ends will produce a very interesting campaign. I may even steal it.  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 09:24:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Raith
I'm sure Cyric would have been proud!
Sadly Selune wasn't 
I tried not to talk to the follower of Helm after that. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 12:29:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
quote:
Originally posted by Zucrous
To a pc good is really a point of view. An evil pc rarely refers to himself as evil. A good pc rarely refers to himself as good. They choose actions they seem as best and follow through, im sure that unless they have an actual player's handbook standing in front of them they refer to the tenets of their own beliefs to determine what is right and wrong. A banite priest does not think of himself as evil, but he may think that the acts he is doing in the name of his faith are, and in doing so he is by the phb definition, evil. But if he thinks that what he is doing is for the greater good of mankind, and that in doing so makes him good, that is still evil according to the phb. Its all about actions, rarely about intent in the rules of DnD.
Don't get me wrong I agree with what you are saying, individuals rarely consider themselves as evil, but most people like to think they are good, don't they? I do. And generally I like to think my pc's are good too. No matter what they may get up too.
The point I am trying to make is that pc's are not normal people. They are by default heroes whos actions and opinions carry significant weight in the game world.
So even if you think you are bringing villagers under the yoke for the greater good, then at some point you will be forced to impose your tyranical rule by means other than preaching and cohersion. At that point what will your good characters do?
Not saying its a bad idea, in fact individuals who find out that their good works are actually supporting evil ends will produce a very interesting campaign. I may even steal it.
To be totally clear here, on the character sheet it's gonna say LE/LN for me and something like NE/N/LE/LN for Zurc's rogue, regardless of how these characters feel about themselves personally.
In my opinion it will be the opposite of what you said there, Wrigs. Instead of good deeds being used for some greater evil, I expect them to commit some evil deeds in the name of the greater good, justifying it as something that can't be avoided and maybe even feeling a little bit self-righteous and martyred for it, in a sick way. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 14:10:51
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| So it is an evil campaign then |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 16:14:13
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Right-o. Though we'll be bad people with the very best of intentions!
I hear the road to the hells needs paving. Could that be a quest arc? |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 18:18:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
The scariest statement you can make in the Dalelands: "Hi, I'm from Zhentil Keep, and I'm here to help."
Probably scarier for the character making the statement... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 18:33:09
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| Not in 4e... Zhents have a big-time hatred for the Shades, and they'd probably work for free just to get a piece of them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 20:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not in 4e... Zhents have a big-time hatred for the Shades, and they'd probably work for free just to get a piece of them.
In 4e Zhents are Cyricists again, so I pretend 4th edition doesn't exist.
LALALALALALALALALALALA! *Fingers in ears* |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Zucrous
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 23:28:40
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| I wish I could pave the road of hell with undead bunny rabbits, perhaps that would bring a softer feel to eternal damnation. |
-I have transformed my fear and now it serves me. |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 23:33:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zucrous
I wish I could pave the road of hell with undead bunny rabbits, perhaps that would bring a softer feel to eternal damnation.
...you want to kill me, then pave the road to hell with me?
I'm downright insulted, zucrous. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Zucrous
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 06:37:59
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| WELL THATS RUDE! How was I supposed to know you are undead!? Why would u care?! How can you be undead and have rabies!? I mean ur immune to it for bane's sake! WHY AM I ARGUING WITH YOU ABOUT THIS!? WHY ARE MY CAPS LOCKED!? |
-I have transformed my fear and now it serves me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
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Zucrous
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 07:03:36
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Hey wooley ive been meaning to say something to you for a long time. I think you have had this coming btw...
I ****ing love ur name dude. I heart giant space hamsters.
As for the topic of the thread, I believe we ran it over witha lawnmower, then set it on fire, went to have a beer, and then set it on fire again. Now we are watching it burn. Do you mind paying for the next round of brooskies?
Mod Edit: Shortened the "..." since it was stretching the page.
Mod Edit II: Censored the inappropriate language somewhat.
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-I have transformed my fear and now it serves me. |
Edited by - The Sage on 21 Feb 2009 07:20:44 |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 07:44:35
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This thread seems pretty gone, yeah. I'm building a big one of my own detailing the history of my campaign and eventually asking opinions for future plot hooks. It'll take a bit of typing to get the whole thing down though. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12214
In any case, the original topic of this thread was Rabies asking for suggestions about running a campaign in the Silver Marches. I can update the criteria a bit!
We'll be level 3.
We'll be mostly evil.
We'll be trying to not SEEM evil.
So far I haven't been able to suggest anything better than "We try to keep orcs from doing bad things" and "Somebody breaks an important artifact that the orcs don't want reassembled and scattered all the pieces across the land, and now several parties of (low level) adventurers are trying to track it down!"
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"And when they assemble all of the mystical Dragon Balls Shenron will appear and grant them three wishes!" (Yeah yeah I know. Beat you to it.)
Party will be:
LE Priestess of Bane
NE Rogue of Mask (publicly of Waukeen)
LN Monk of undisclosed religious affiliation, potentially none. ARE there any Faithless monks? That sounds like an oxymoron to me, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, plot hooks that work for good guys usually work for us too, since I'm gonna be playing the cleric and doing my level best to convince everybody in the world that Bane is an okay guy. (Really!)
I'm sure there are things to do in the Silver Marches besides orc stomping, but I'm such a King Obould fan that I have a hard time thinking of much else!
One of his sons falls in love with an elf and wants us to help cover their forbidden affair?
We're beset by female monks of Luthic?
Maybe something a little simpler and more obvious, like "Your cleric was just crit by a raging orc barbarian with base 22 str (26 while raging!) and a x3 modifier Greataxe. What do you do?" |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
Edited by - Raith on 21 Feb 2009 07:46:47 |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 14:57:55
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A monk without a specific deity seems reasonable. Many eastern philosophies deal with the concept of internal alchemy and self reliance and improvement. As such there is no actual need for a deity guiding the way, only a set of ideals by which to live.
As for the campaign, always fun to be had with desert tribes of anauroch, pirates in the moonsea, or those pesky good organisations or npcs who that want to spoil all your evil fun. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 15:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Raith
LN Monk of undisclosed religious affiliation, potentially none. ARE there any Faithless monks? That sounds like an oxymoron to me, but I could be wrong.
The monks of the Long Death do not worship a particular god. They worship Death itself.
quote:
Anyway, plot hooks that work for good guys usually work for us too, since I'm gonna be playing the cleric and doing my level best to convince everybody in the world that Bane is an okay guy. (Really!)
I think it'd be pretty cool if the bad guy for your initial adventure was a Banite cleric who has gone rogue.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 18:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
The monks of the Long Death do not worship a particular god. They worship Death itself.
[/quote]
Right, but even the MoLD give at least lip service to whatever deity currently holds the Death hot-potato. Jergal, Myrkul, Cyric, and now Kelemvor have all technically held their allegiance. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2009 : 19:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Raith
Right, but even the MoLD give at least lip service to whatever deity currently holds the Death hot-potato. Jergal, Myrkul, Cyric, and now Kelemvor have all technically held their allegiance.
Actually babe, from what I've read, they certainly do not need to have a god. It would be REALLY STUPID for them not to, as they venerate death and KNOWS what will happen if they don't have a god, but technically they could be free of deities. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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First Time DMing - oh dear!
