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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2009 : 18:25:42
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I'm just curious here. Suppose that the sava game between Eiliustraee and Lolth in the Lady Penitent series had gone otherwise, or maybe that Lolth was destroyed by some power or other in the War of the Spider Queen series. If it was Lolth who died and not all the other drow gods, what effect would that have had on the drow in particular and the Realms in general?
Could another deity have replaced Lolth, possibly working from 'behind the scenes'? I like the idea of Shar stepping into Lolth's shoes for this purpose.
Or would the priestesshood of Lolth simply collapsed, and if so, what effect would that have had if one of the major players in the Underdark went bye-bye?
Thanks for any help.
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2009 : 20:53:20
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Dark Elves would have been Elistraees domain. She accepted exile in order to save dark elven souls. She played the Sava game, in order to save dark elven souls.
However, whom a mortal worships is up to them. I have a hard time believing Triel Baenre, for instance, would worship her. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2009 : 22:24:29
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What ifs are always interesting, a guess.
It depends on if other deities died before as outlined.
There still is gumerish that some might tirn to, Shar clearly could be a canidate as well.
All in all it would depend a lot on who took the profilios of Lolth, as it appears some what clear Eilistraee would not take Evil, though certainly would likely take Drow.
The Lolthian clergy would start to fall apart, however stored magic would be used while they found another deity that best comformed to their belief system. Overall the culture would likely drive results, the culture being used to Lolth would likely follow a Priestess of Lolth for many years before they start to disbelieve. Elistraee likely would gain some more followers from the lower classes, however other deities would seek to be the pretender Lolth in order to increase thier power and control. After the deities decide the issue worship would slowly be transfered to that winning deity over perhaps 1000 years. Lolth remarried if male took over (less likely), she adopted a deity as her agent (that in time becomes more powerful, and Lolth retires) and so on. As all deitirs can insert dreams and grant spells to those that seek spells not contray to the deity portfolio there will always be a deity to step forward tp fill the vacant space.
Edit reason: Bad keyboard |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 15 Feb 2009 03:05:50 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 02:53:26
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| I've always wondered why Cyric never lusted after the portfolio of Chaos. It seems only natural for him. I could see him making a move to the Underdark to take charge and escape the purview of the surface gods... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 03:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I've always wondered why Cyric never lusted after the portfolio of Chaos. It seems only natural for him. I could see him making a move to the Underdark to take charge and escape the purview of the surface gods...
Well in part it appears the way they can be taken, Cyric clearly might have wanted it. There again, at least at timemes appearing to be insane, might not been able to turn desire into a workable plan. I Lolth disappeared, I expect many would seek the porfolio of Chaos. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 06:27:57
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| Eilistraee would of become a dark elven greater goddess, and whats her name the what is in 4e matron of house bearne would of ascended and became a new deity of spiders while dating Cyric, then be imprisoned along with him in his domain covered with urine and feces |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:01:46
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I'm influenced both by the original material on dark elves and by Paizo's recent take on the drow (which hearkens back to the original material). I had thought about this at one point in time, and my knee jerk reaction was that Shar would move in, but over time, not only do I not like this option because of Shar's hand in every major evil in recent Realms material, but also because she doesn't have much of a history with the drow, other than the mention in Underdark that she wants to claim the Underdark as hers, and that she took over Ilbrandul's portfolio.
What I picture happening is the drow moving back to various other demon lords for worship. They already consort with a number of demons as it stands now, and I'm sure that those demons, depending on where their loyalties may shift, would turn the drow to whatever demon lord they had allied themselves to.
I can picture drow houses with a more subtle and seductive nature turning to Malconthet or Graz'zt, those that are particularly still obsessive about spiders latching onto Obox-ob, and obviously those whose power depends on control of the undead turning to Orcus.
I think Vhaeraun's faith would end up gaining a bit, since some of the demon lords wouldn't be all that opposed to it, though the matriarchy would still exist and probably put limits on what the "official" church could do. I also think that the resulting chaos as the noble houses align behind various demon lords would allow for "secret" worshipers of Eiliestraee to break free in a few places, at least where they didn't leave a few "undercover" agents to continue their conversion work.
In fact, the more I think about Shar, nihilism doesn't fit with the overall drow outlook. Shar's followers more or less give up hope, and say "life sucks, and while I may benefit from being a follower of Shar, in the end, its all pointless and the world should just end so everyone is miserable like I am most of the time."
The drow mindset is much more, "you know, the world may end sometime, but who cares? I'm great, and I need someone to tell me I'm great and give me power, even if they want me to say they are greater than me and provide a sacrifice once in a while." I just don't see arrogance as being 100% compatible with Nihilism.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36900 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:21:09
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm influenced both by the original material on dark elves and by Paizo's recent take on the drow (which hearkens back to the original material). I had thought about this at one point in time, and my knee jerk reaction was that Shar would move in, but over time, not only do I not like this option because of Shar's hand in every major evil in recent Realms material, but also because she doesn't have much of a history with the drow, other than the mention in Underdark that she wants to claim the Underdark as hers, and that she took over Ilbrandul's portfolio.
What I picture happening is the drow moving back to various other demon lords for worship. They already consort with a number of demons as it stands now, and I'm sure that those demons, depending on where their loyalties may shift, would turn the drow to whatever demon lord they had allied themselves to.
I can picture drow houses with a more subtle and seductive nature turning to Malconthet or Graz'zt, those that are particularly still obsessive about spiders latching onto Obox-ob, and obviously those whose power depends on control of the undead turning to Orcus.
I think Vhaeraun's faith would end up gaining a bit, since some of the demon lords wouldn't be all that opposed to it, though the matriarchy would still exist and probably put limits on what the "official" church could do. I also think that the resulting chaos as the noble houses align behind various demon lords would allow for "secret" worshipers of Eiliestraee to break free in a few places, at least where they didn't leave a few "undercover" agents to continue their conversion work.
In fact, the more I think about Shar, nihilism doesn't fit with the overall drow outlook. Shar's followers more or less give up hope, and say "life sucks, and while I may benefit from being a follower of Shar, in the end, its all pointless and the world should just end so everyone is miserable like I am most of the time."
The drow mindset is much more, "you know, the world may end sometime, but who cares? I'm great, and I need someone to tell me I'm great and give me power, even if they want me to say they are greater than me and provide a sacrifice once in a while." I just don't see arrogance as being 100% compatible with Nihilism.
Those are all good points, but I do disagree on one thing: I think the matriarchy would take a major hit. Removing the clerical power from the females would leave them seriously weakened, and we know not all males are happy with their roles. Not only that, but the other deities and demons don't have (so far as I can recall) the gender bias.
The matriarchy would take a tumble while turning to other deities, and the removal of the gender bias would give more parity between the genders. I think that the end result would be a still-dominant matriarchy, but it wouldn't be universally dominant (so some families and cities would either have a dominant patriarchy or a rough equality between the genders), and its dominance wouldn't be anywhere near as total as it is now (so even where females remained in power, they'd not have as much power as they have now). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:25:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
What I picture happening is the drow moving back to various other demon lords for worship. They already consort with a number of demons as it stands now, and I'm sure that those demons, depending on where their loyalties may shift, would turn the drow to whatever demon lord they had allied themselves to.
This, of course, is the original idea of drow religion: Lolth was simply the most popular of the various demon lords (and other entities like the Elder Elemental God) the drow worshipped. This got distorted by TSR into a Lolthite monoculture, and then the Realms' drow 'pantheon' gradually came together and reintroduced a variety that had been present previously but ignored. Not a unique process among the successions of D&D setting concepts. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:32:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
This, of course, is the original idea of drow religion: Lolth was simply the most popular of the various demon lords (and other entities like the Elder Elemental God) the drow worshipped. This got distorted by TSR into a Lolthite monoculture, and then the Realms' drow 'pantheon' gradually came together and reintroduced a variety that had been present previously but ignored. Not a unique process among the successions of D&D setting concepts.
When the 3.5 Drow of the Underdark came out, I was actually hoping to distinguish it from FR drow that they might go back and show the variety of demon lords that the drow worshiped "in the old days," but instead they further expanded the monotheistic nature of Lolth's religion among the drow, even retconning Vhaeraun and Zinzerena (from their inclusion in the 2E "core" pantheon of drow deities in Monster Mythology) out of drow worship (and even altered Zinzerana into a paragon of Lolthlite virtue instead of an assassin and rebel).
It was a major sign to me that there was a drive to homogenize the D&D experience regardless of setting. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 15 Feb 2009 16:35:50 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertThose are all good points, but I do disagree on one thing: I think the matriarchy would take a major hit. Removing the clerical power from the females would leave them seriously weakened, and we know not all males are happy with their roles. Not only that, but the other deities and demons don't have (so far as I can recall) the gender bias.
The matriarchy would take a tumble while turning to other deities, and the removal of the gender bias would give more parity between the genders. I think that the end result would be a still-dominant matriarchy, but it wouldn't be universally dominant (so some families and cities would either have a dominant patriarchy or a rough equality between the genders), and its dominance wouldn't be anywhere near as total as it is now (so even where females remained in power, they'd not have as much power as they have now).
I actually can't disagree from a logic standpoint, but as a DM, I'd like to find a good, logical reason to keep the matriarchy intact in most places, just because I wouldn't want to change the baseline drow too much.
So its more personal preference that I'd try to keep the matriarchy intact, but somewhat damaged and shaken. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36900 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:43:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertThose are all good points, but I do disagree on one thing: I think the matriarchy would take a major hit. Removing the clerical power from the females would leave them seriously weakened, and we know not all males are happy with their roles. Not only that, but the other deities and demons don't have (so far as I can recall) the gender bias.
The matriarchy would take a tumble while turning to other deities, and the removal of the gender bias would give more parity between the genders. I think that the end result would be a still-dominant matriarchy, but it wouldn't be universally dominant (so some families and cities would either have a dominant patriarchy or a rough equality between the genders), and its dominance wouldn't be anywhere near as total as it is now (so even where females remained in power, they'd not have as much power as they have now).
I actually can't disagree from a logic standpoint, but as a DM, I'd like to find a good, logical reason to keep the matriarchy intact in most places, just because I wouldn't want to change the baseline drow too much.
So its more personal preference that I'd try to keep the matriarchy intact, but somewhat damaged and shaken.
I can agree with that. I see it much the same way -- I was just trying to say that I don't see the matriarchy as emerging unscathed. Not only that, but I like the idea of the matriarchy being removed from some areas -- though I'd keep it at least somewhat dominant in the majority of drow cities.
The drow matriarchy doesn't bother me, it's just that I'd be happier with it if the males weren't so dominated. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 16:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I actually can't disagree from a logic standpoint, but as a DM, I'd like to find a good, logical reason to keep the matriarchy intact in most places, just because I wouldn't want to change the baseline drow too much.
So its more personal preference that I'd try to keep the matriarchy intact, but somewhat damaged and shaken.
Well a long, long time ago elves always tended to have female only clerics. The male cleric was rare or forbidden, even of male deities. Some of this culture could remain as a supporting reason of a mostly female Cleric percentage. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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IronAngel
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 17:13:59
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| I'm curious: what's the source on that? |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2009 : 21:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Eilistraee would of become a dark elven greater goddess, and whats her name the what is in 4e matron of house bearne would of ascended and became a new deity of spiders while dating Cyric, then be imprisoned along with him in his domain covered with urine and feces
-Wow thats...interesting.  
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 06:15:28
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Are we assuming this is after Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, and Selvetarm were killed? So the only remaining powers of the Dark Seldarine are Eilistraee and Ghaunadar?
Eilistraee and Ghaunadar would gain a lot of the worship. But also I think the Drow would have just turned to other deities such as Beshaba, Shar, Talona, and the like.
I sort of thought of Eilistraee having become neutral when she took on vhaeraun's portfolios, which is how the evil drow would still be able to worship her = P |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36900 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 06:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Are we assuming this is after Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, and Selvetarm were killed? So the only remaining powers of the Dark Seldarine are Eilistraee and Ghaunadar?
Eilistraee and Ghaunadar would gain a lot of the worship. But also I think the Drow would have just turned to other deities such as Beshaba, Shar, Talona, and the like.
I sort of thought of Eilistraee having become neutral when she took on vhaeraun's portfolios, which is how the evil drow would still be able to worship her = P
It says "If it was Lolth who died and not all the other drow gods," so this scenario assumes Lolth to be the only dead one. At least, that's how I'm reading it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 11:50:43
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| This makes me wonder, who would be interested if WotC decided to publish a series of "What If?" novels akin to what Marvel had/has? It would be interesting while simultaneously not affecting the canon in any way. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36900 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:29:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
This makes me wonder, who would be interested if WotC decided to publish a series of "What If?" novels akin to what Marvel had/has? It would be interesting while simultaneously not affecting the canon in any way.
Isn't that what the Shattered Realms is? It strikes me as a "what if" -- "What if all logic and prior lore was thrown out the window?" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 15:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I've always wondered why Cyric never lusted after the portfolio of Chaos. It seems only natural for him. I could see him making a move to the Underdark to take charge and escape the purview of the surface gods...
And he has about another 900 years to plan for it |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 16:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
This makes me wonder, who would be interested if WotC decided to publish a series of "What If?" novels akin to what Marvel had/has? It would be interesting while simultaneously not affecting the canon in any way.
Isn't that what the Shattered Realms is? It strikes me as a "what if" -- "What if all logic and prior lore was thrown out the window?"
Hmmm...maybe that is so and Wizards will release "The REAL 4E FRCG" at some point...probably on April 1st... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rabiesbunny
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 18:38:10
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| I could easily see Vhaeraun or another more sane drow deity taking over worship in Llolth's name; granting spells to the clerics, but changing the dogma slowly to make it more in his image. I mean...I still hate what happened, and we kind of nixxed it in our campaign. But it seems that inheriting, using the name and rolling with the punches is always the easiest way to go. |
"Then I was right. Jobe has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making his movies. There is no god." |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 21:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Are we assuming this is after Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, and Selvetarm were killed? So the only remaining powers of the Dark Seldarine are Eilistraee and Ghaunadar?
It says "If it was Lolth who died and not all the other drow gods," so this scenario assumes Lolth to be the only dead one. At least, that's how I'm reading it.
Yeah, what Wooly said. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 21:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
This makes me wonder, who would be interested if WotC decided to publish a series of "What If?" novels akin to what Marvel had/has? It would be interesting while simultaneously not affecting the canon in any way.
Isn't that what the Shattered Realms is? It strikes me as a "what if" -- "What if all logic and prior lore was thrown out the window?"
Play nice Wooly, they didn't throw it all out.
I mean hells, the place is stil called Toril.....
*listens intently as familiar whispers in his ear*
"What's that? A-beer??? Abeer Toril..huh?? Really??"
Ok, Wooly .....looks you may be right!
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2009 : 21:25:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
What I picture happening is the drow moving back to various other demon lords for worship. They already consort with a number of demons as it stands now, and I'm sure that those demons, depending on where their loyalties may shift, would turn the drow to whatever demon lord they had allied themselves to.
I can picture drow houses with a more subtle and seductive nature turning to Malconthet or Graz'zt...
Those are all good points, but I do disagree on one thing: I think the matriarchy would take a major hit. Removing the clerical power from the females would leave them seriously weakened, and we know not all males are happy with their roles. Not only that, but the other deities and demons don't have (so far as I can recall) the gender bias.
Actually, the matriarchy might well stay in place if the drow turned to Malcanthet or Graz'zt. According to what was said about them both in Dragon, they prefer female priests. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2011 : 10:58:03
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I rather thought of introducing Keptolo from GH to the Realms (that's re: monotheistic nature of drow pantheon)
About Malcanthet or Graz'zt - there was a drow cleric of Graz'zt in the original Gygaxian module :) And I think they'd have worked nice.
Turning to Loviatar would be nice, but I think Beshaba would be worse. Or Bane. Imagine drow turning into LE monsters who then proceed to amass an army of millions and conquer the world (was it the Drow War setting that did it?) |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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What If... the drow deities had slain Lolth?
