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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 15:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Waterdeep has become a slum, and den of evil mages and corrupt officials? 
Well, the "evil mages and corrupt officials" bit isn't exactly a new thing for Waterdeep. We have read about this type of thing happening in the City of Splendors before. And I like the way Steven connected this development with the fallout of the Spellplague. As for the "slum" part... I didn't really see it as such. Rather, I got the impression that this was actually the result of the overall majesty and shine of the City of Splendors having been tarnished, just a little.
I got the impression it was more than just a little tarnished... And as I've said before, I really don't see a center of trade, blessed with a deep and clean harbor, allowing that harbor to become filthy and partially clogged. The Waterdeep of 1479 is not, to me, a logical extension of what the Waterdeep of 1374 was.
Exactly.
Crime seems much more evident, and the city gaurd are described as 'bullies'. Also, pay close attention to the background Steven describes - broken statues and non-working fountains, collapsed buildings where weeds and even trees have taken root and allowed to grow, garbage and rubble in the streets, twisted structures and mishapen landscapes... and Mistshore just 'takes the cake'. I know that little 'doozy' had nothing to do with Mr. Schend, but seriously - the city is named after it's unique and commerce-endearing harbor!
I live on the outskirts of NY City, and I can tell you that it was at its worst in the 70's. Graft and corruption were rife, garbage was piling up everywhere, and the unions (read: Mafia) were controlling just about everything. In fact, it sounded a lot like Waterdeep circa 1479.
Just one MAJOR difference - at NO point did 'we' allow the harbor to get choked with crap. The Harbor is our 'lifeline' and what made NYC great - even at it's worst the city's citizens realized this. About a month ago we had a commercial jetliner crash into the water - and it was lifted out two days later.
When a city's harbor is it's most important feature, and the one the rest of the city was built around, you do not let it get like that.
But aside from my feelings about Waterdeep, which to tell the truth I don't care about nearly as much as most of the rest of the Realms (it does seem more intersting to me now, sadly enough), it was the fact that I enjoyed Blackstaff so much that made this a disappointment.
The whole 1st novel revolved around Tsarra... and we learn her anti-climactic fate in a single sentence. That retro-actively ruined the first book for me (which I enjoyed immensely).
Also, I got the wrong idea about the novel - I was lead to believe that we'd get lots and lots of 'kewl flashbacks' throughout the novel, much like Blackstaff had. Had I known the novel was PURE 4e I probably wouldn't have picked it up.
But enough about novels - it isn't the story or even the author's fault: Its just a side-effect of the '4e condition' of the Realms.
I just can't identify AT ALL with this new world. It has gotten under my skin so badly that even small things - like the word 'cerulean' - sets off alarm bells in my head. I have tried to like it, but the best I can hope for at this point is being able to discuss the lore civilly.
I've been reading Lords of Darkness the past few days (I only got it recently), and there is just so many great things in that book that are now gone, some of which I can't even blame on 4e. Reading the Drow entry and how the "Cormanthor Drow will be a threat for years to come" just saddens me, since I know they were 'dismissed' in a couple of lines in the GhotR (during that final decade). So many truly great storylines were ended that way - "everyone died... NEXT!"
I think the only thing worse then 90% of the 4e lore was the truly disrespectful way the curent team obliterated material created by everyone that had gone before. They didn't even bother to 'wrap it up' - they just 'dismssed it'. 
There was no 'transition period' - when I read the 4e stuff, I feel like that guy on Life on Mars (great show, BTW).
Creativity begins with an idea and a pencil, not a grudge and an eraser.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2009 15:18:09 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 17:18:24
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Well, a grudge and an eraser is a pretty good start when it comes to changing the world to fit your campaign. Much of my creativity through the last ten years have come from seeing what I don't want the setting to be and try to form it into something I like and can use.
It is strange, your summary on how you feel pretty much sounds like my reaction to the 3ed. In fact Lords of Darkness was the book that kept me away from buying Realms products for four years. There was nothing there that felt like the Realms I had been using and all the changes rubbed me the wrong way. And I mean all of them. I am glad it did, as it let me make a clean break from any thoughts of following the official setting.
And at least you get great music when stuck in the 70's England, so you see? Things always have a bright side. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 17:54:12
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Ah, okay... point taken. I myself have taken a big ol' eraser to the Realms and have changed them greatly.
Difference is, I don't try to force my world-veiw on anyone else. 
And while I agree the quality of 3e products was below that of 2e, a lot of good still came-out of the early 3e stuff. I don't agree with everything (the return of Shade and Myth Drannor, for example), and I'll pick-and-choose what I use, but at least we had a feeling of 'continuation'. A lot of the same people, places, and things were there, and it felt like 'going home' to your hometown after years away.
This time, its like we went to another planet. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2009 17:55:21 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 18:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This time, its like we went to another planet.
Or your hometown nuked by meaningless magical catastrophe. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 23:29:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, we have managed to talk keep this thread going for five pages, so at least it has been a conversation starter. As long as the posts are interesting I don't see the problem of the missing OP.
Another good point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 01:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Reading the Drow entry and how the "Cormanthor Drow will be a threat for years to come" just saddens me, since I know they were 'dismissed' in a couple of lines in the GhotR (during that final decade).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't agree with everything (the return of Shade and Myth Drannor, for example), and I'll pick-and-choose what I use, but at least we had a feeling of 'continuation'.
All three seem to be part of the same foreshortening phenomenon to me, in which so many things became easier, quicker, closer, simpler and more immediate. Rather than intricate Netherese history with subtle causes and effects, now it's in your face. Never mind the shining memory of Myth Drannor and the decades-long Retreat, we'll bring it back bodily, even though that's properly the matter for individual campaigns (not least Ed Greenwood's own!). Drow are cool, so we'll make them easy to get to without all that boring spelunking -- the level of thinking there was disclosed, I'm afraid, by the decision to bring in drow from Menzoberranzan, half a continent away, just because they'd featured in some popular books.
If we'd been less tolerant of such design choices in the first place, Wizards might not have thought they could get away with much worse last year. |
Edited by - Faraer on 26 Feb 2009 01:24:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 03:42:53
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Once again, I would have to say this is not just a problem with WotC, but a sign of the times.
We accept things from 'higher ups' like mindless sheep, and they say "hey... they like this... lets feed them more.."
As you've pointed out, its through our own inaction (and continuing purchases) that has brought us here, so we have no one to blame but ourselves.
On a much lighter note: What Drow were from Menzoberranzan? 
If your talking about the Cormanthor ones, I was unaware of that fact (there are at least two cities right in the area that work better).
Either Way, I am glad I read neither of those series. I may, someday, when I get tired of re-reading all my existing stuff, but for now I have the GHotR to fill me in on what happened (and that I'll never use in my games). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2009 17:01:56 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 00:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We accept things from 'higher ups' like mindless sheep...
I most certainly do not. Even with regards to the Realms setting, I've been skeptical of certain design decisions--heck, I just plain disliked some of them--years before 4E (and the 4E Realms setting) was even announced. That being said though, at the time, WotC did at least put out Realms products that I was willing to spend money on. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Feb 2009 00:56:26 |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 18:31:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On a much lighter note: What Drow were from Menzoberranzan?
If your talking about the Cormanthor ones, I was unaware of that fact (there are at least two cities right in the area that work better).
I think it was the Jaelre drow who came from Menzoberranzan, with their main rivals (Clan Auzkovyn) having apparently always been surface-dwelling nomads until they entered the Dales via a portal located beneath the Abbey of the Sword in Battledale. |
Edited by - Ardashir on 27 Feb 2009 18:31:56 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 21:06:17
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Which is hilarious, as Mearimydra(sp?)is, like... RIGHT THERE.
But, then, there's no House Do'Urden there, is there? |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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redsaber
Acolyte
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 06:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Once again, I would have to say this is not just a problem with WotC, but a sign of the times.
We accept things from 'higher ups' like mindless sheep, and they say "hey... they like this... lets feed them more.."
I totally agree with you. Maybe that's just because my generation (which maybe is also yours... the generation Y), just cares about the parts and not the whole.
Anyways, what I wanted to say is this: there's still some of us who keep fighting back.
As an example, if I ever see one of my players with a dragonborn character or a eladryn, I'll cut his tongue out.  
Dragonborns, eladryns, the Feywild and returned Abeir are to Forgotten Realms what Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars.
What I've always liked with the Realms is realizing how much I did not know much about it.
Now... it's another story. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 08:32:07
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quote:
Originally posted by redsaber
[quote]
Dragonborns, eladryns, the Feywild and returned Abeir are to Forgotten Realms what Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars.
Personally, I've always considered the hatred directed at Jar Jar Binks an extreme overreaction.
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If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6653 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 12:47:39
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I recall that when FRCS was in development and I found out that they were bringing surface drow to Cormanthor I pushed for them to at least come from an FR region that was known to house surface drow - the Forest of Mir. My suggestion went unheeded.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 13:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by redsaber
As an example, if I ever see one of my players with a dragonborn character or a eladryn, I'll cut his tongue out.
Dragonborns, eladryns, the Feywild and returned Abeir are to Forgotten Realms what Jar Jar Binks is to Star Wars.
The dragonborn of 3E didn't bother me... I've actually been tinkering with an idea for a race of draconic humanoids descended from dragons and humans. It's essentially the 4E dragonborn, but in smaller numbers, and with a backstory that at least starts in the Realms.
I can deal with a lot of things, so long as the presentation is right. The way the 4E dragonborn appeared is not acceptable, nor is their sharing a name with an apparently unrelated 3E race. I'm trying to make an acceptable version.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Mar 2009 13:44:29 |
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redsaber
Acolyte
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2009 : 16:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The dragonborn of 3E didn't bother me... I've actually been tinkering with an idea for a race of draconic humanoids descended from dragons and humans. It's essentially the 4E dragonborn, but in smaller numbers, and with a backstory that at least starts in the Realms.
I can deal with a lot of things, so long as the presentation is right. The way the 4E dragonborn appeared is not acceptable, nor is their sharing a name with an apparently unrelated 3E race. I'm trying to make an acceptable version.
I totally agree. In a way, I also liked the idea of having them in smaller numbers. That would have been totally understandable. However, having them becoming so important as to have their own region... I can't quite agree with that... Specially since, like you said, the presentation and explanation weren't really consistent and logical with the world they were arriving in.
Good point. |
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A matter of opinion...
