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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 02:36:47
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Mulhorand… (I posted this elsewhere, but I want to see what Candlekeep folk have to say)
I have always been disappointed by the lack of current empires in the Realms. If I had a pet peeve about the setting, I would say that was it (aside from the ways Chosen are used, but that is a b*tch session for another day).
Throughout most of human history people were perpetually trying to build an empire, destroy an empire or maintain an empire. However, there are few such entities in the Realms during the assumed years of the setting (circa 1350s and then the 1370s).
To be certain, there are lots of group trying to build empires, such as the Zhents, the Red Wizards, the nefarious government of Calimshan, yaunti, Shades, beholders, Shriners, Church of Bane, so forth and so on. However, for all of that, the only existent actual empires were Unther and Mulhorand.
And now it is down to Mulhorand. Which is nifty, ‘cause it is Pseudo-Ancient-Egyptian and Ancient Egypt is pretty cool.
I am not so much a fan of empires as I think they can offer story opportunities; there is much grist for the mill in trying to build an empire (think Roman Imperial philosophy), destroy an empire (Star Wars to a “T”) or maintain an empire (arguably every war movie ever made).
There should be a lot going in the lands of the Old Empires; outright conquest, rampant intrigue, fleeing populations, Shriners running around in those little cars, terrific contests of divine will as gods struggle for dominance and survival, etc., etc.
What do you think of Mulhorand? I think it is cool for many reasons.
Have you participated in games set there? Yes.
Is there a possibility of ever really seeing a Mulhorand book? I am betting no, at least not for years, if ever.
What would you want in a Mulhorand book? Many epic level divine magic goodies.
What currents books deal with the Old Empires? I know three books deal with it, including the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Forgotten Realms Dragons, Lost Empires and Forgotten Realms Book of Power. Any others? What do these books cover, in terms of the Old Empires?
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"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
Edited by - The Grumpy Celt on 11 Jun 2007 03:41:20
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 03:46:47
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Yes, yes I do. I simply forgot to mention it in the post. However, the section in that book simply serves to wet the apatite.
And most of the books that have covered the setting only do so in a kind of peripheral way, focusing on a location or subject that only briefly details the Old Empires.
This is what happens in DoF. I don't know how PoF deals with the subject.
I want something current to the timeline of setting that focuses on Mulhorand at least the way Shining South focused on Halruaa.
Thanks for the link, by the way.
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"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
Edited by - The Grumpy Celt on 11 Jun 2007 04:05:20 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 04:33:39
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I have absolutely, positively, nothing to say about Mulhorand or any other country that may or may not be related to it or its current or former empires.
Today, anyway. ;)
-B |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 05:53:09
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| What about tomorrow? |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 06:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
What about tomorrow?
Probably not tomorrow. But soon. Soon. |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 08:23:18
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Well - I think it would be nice to find more of this aera soon.
I once setted a kind of raid adventure in Mulhorand for my players - just to wet the appetite for the Egytian setting - but maybe I couln't bring in the atmosphere enough, or the main story was too good  - my players haven't returned to Mulhorand until now  |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2007 : 09:45:20
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What do you think of Mulhorand?
I have never been much of a fan of the earth-cultures that where incorporated into the Realms in the early days. I have nothing against egyptian culture, but not in the Realms. When I think of Mulhorand I see it as more as a Ashton- Smith /Howard inspired ancient and corrupt empire. The kings are divine, but not Farao copies.
Have you participated in games set there?
I have used a couple of NPC’s from the country, but nothing more.
Is there a possibility of ever really seeing a Mulhorand book?
Well, everything is possible, but I don't think it would be in the nearest future.
What currents books deal with the Old Empires?
The Campaign setting has a little general information and a few notes on the ongoing war, Power of Faerun has little as far as I remember. Lost Empires of Faerun has quite a bit about the region and the history of the region, so this would be the most interesting one for you. I can not comment on Dragons of Faerun as I have not gotten around to buying it yet, but from what I have heard this book does update some of the information for the region.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 21:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
Mulhorand… (I posted this elsewhere, but I want to see what Candlekeep folk have to say)
(snip)
There should be a lot going in the lands of the Old Empires; outright conquest, rampant intrigue, fleeing populations, Shriners running around in those little cars, terrific contests of divine will as gods struggle for dominance and survival, etc., etc.
(snip)
I strongly agree that we need some updated information on the Old Empires. I have the old The Old Empires book, yet the only two maps I know of which show all of Mulhorand -- north to south, east to west -- are the global map in The Forgotten Realms Atlas and ... amazingly ... The Waterdeep Trail Map.
Mulhorand, Chessenta and Unther have thousands of years of history behind them, and the Imaskari Empire thousands of years more than that, but so far (in 3rd edition) the only references to Mulhorand outside of LEOF have been a paragraph or three portraying Mulhorand as peripheral to some other area. What? Mulhorand isn't part of "the unapproachable east"? It isn't part of "the shining south"? Since it sure as heck isn't part of Kara Tur, what is it in 3rd edition -- except ignored?
Mulhoarnd "recently" conquered most of Unther and (probably part of Chessenta), yet that Realms-shaking event is glossed over in a few paragraphs scattered through several different books. We know more about the back alleys of Saerloon than we do about one of the largest (and oldest) empires on Toril.
More, I say! More!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:28:16
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I agree with everything Jamallo Kreen said. Mulhorand now dominates the whole of south-eastern Innersea community, it should work divine magic the way other nations work arcane magic, Utheric refugees should flee their homeland in droves, Thay should be at least ramping up for a war if not sweating bullets.
But we get a lot of silence.
Pity that. |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 22:53:07
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| Given what we learned in Dragons of Faerun I wouldn't assume that Mulhorand is going to have an easy time domination the traditional boundaries of the Old Empires. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 23:26:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
I have always been disappointed by the lack of current empires in the Realms.
I'm not. I think empires (and for that matter, kingdoms) are exceedingly common in fantasy settings, so a lack of them is rather refreshing. Also, it surprises me how often fantasy empires and their rulers are written about in a positive manner (though not necessarily in the FR), because real life empires tended to be oppressive towards those they subjugated. So I'd feel skeptical if I had to read about a bunch of people trying to build a "shining" empire.
But in spite of that, I don't disagree that an oppressive empire can be rich with story opportunities. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Jun 2007 23:32:51 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 23:31:40
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| I also don't think its particularly strange to see the Realms in an era where there aren't many "empires." Rome was prevalent for a long time, but the implied, emulated time period that most fantasy seems to protray is an era of kingdoms after the fall of empires. Faerun had Imaskar, Mulhorand, Unther, and Netheril (just to name a few), and there are still two rather large empires (Shou Lung and T'u Lung) to the east of Faerun. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2007 : 23:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I also don't think its particularly strange to see the Realms in an era where there aren't many "empires." Rome was prevalent for a long time, but the implied, emulated time period that most fantasy seems to protray is an era of kingdoms after the fall of empires.
I agree, in fact I'd even say many parts of the Realms have moved past kingdoms to independant, mercantile city-states. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 00:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Mulhoarnd "recently" conquered most of Unther and (probably part of Chessenta), yet that Realms-shaking event is glossed over in a few paragraphs scattered through several different books.
I don't know that I'd call it "glossed over". The focus for most Realms material has always been the Heartlands and/or the North. With few exceptions, that's what the majority of the novels and sourcebooks have about.
So it hasn't been glossed over -- it's simply not been covered. It's not the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
We know more about the back alleys of Saerloon than we do about one of the largest (and oldest) empires on Toril.
Similarly, here in the US, you can likely find detailed guidebooks of NYC much more readily than current detailed information about China. It all depends on where you are and where your interest is. More people in the US would be interested in NYC than Beijing, so there's more info on the former than the latter. Go to Moscow or Pongyang, and you'll likely find much more Chinese info -- because it's more relevant there.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting more info on a particular area. I'm just saying that the lack of info doesn't constitute a deliberate avoidance of that area on the part of the designers. |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 03:17:26
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In Europe following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern (Byzantine)
Empire persisted for centuries. There were also the Ottoman Empire, the Moorish Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, Charlemagne’s Empire, among others. So, there were empires.
And I wasn’t talking about Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Mazteca or anywhere else other than Faerun. And I wasn’t talking about any other period than 1356 and 1373+.
And I didn’t say empires were good for the people, I just said they were good for stories.
The Roman’s believed they had a mandate to impose order on a chaotic world and that there was honor in conquest. Why shouldn’t the Mulhorandi believe the same thing? Frankling, dealing decisively with Unther, Chessentia and Thay could be a good thing.
If anything, the fact that a resurgent Mulhorand can threaten Thay makes the prospect interesting. |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 07:15:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Grumpy Celt
The Roman’s believed they had a mandate to impose order on a chaotic world and that there was honor in conquest. Why shouldn’t the Mulhorandi believe the same thing? Frankling, dealing decisively with Unther, Chessentia and Thay could be a good thing.
Well, to turn the question around; why should they? There are different motivations and ideologies behind all empire building. The roman one was mainly a combination of looting and the building of safe borders, others like China and ancient Egypt more or less kept to a central heartland, viewing the rest of the world as barbarous and not worth the trouble.
The Mulhorandi has fought a war against a crumbling Unther, taking on the armies of Thay, Calimshan or the states of the south would be a different case. Now, this could be the start of a new expansion period, but it could also be the last burst of energy before the empire again goes into a slow decline. There are many possibilities. |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 13:00:54
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So it seems to me that we agree at least, that there should be more information on this part of the world – even if the focus tend to be more northerly
I would not be surprised if a motivation of expansion would be some kind of holy jihad but as already mentioned it can in every case rich with story opportunities (quote: Rinonalyrna)
I think that the use of such an earth-culture in the fantasy setting gives a lot of possible atmosphere, there is music, weapons, art, and clothing in abundance that you can bring in the roll-play – even if all of the Scribes here do a really great job of giving the atmosphere to the fantasy setting also. At least for my roll-players there is enough of mystery left, even if everybody heard or read about ancient Egypt. And it is easier for me – as dungeon master - to bring such things as a kopesch (ancient sword).
So once again – I would like to get more from this part of Faerun.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 19:40:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You have the old Old Empires source book, correct?
The author of that book provided some additional unofficial material, which can be found here:
http://www.hallofhero.com/sand/
Wooly, that was truly helpful!!!!
It's a pity that the computer game is only available for Windows. (Aside to game manufacturers and vendors: about 12% of home PCs use some operating system other than Windows; by restricting yourself to a Windows platform, you are automatically losing about an eighth of your potential customers. Bill Gates ain't gonna pay you the difference in sales, so please supply us with games which can run under Mac OS, Linux, etc.)
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2007 : 04:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm not. I think empires (and for that matter, kingdoms) are exceedingly common in fantasy settings, so a lack of them is rather refreshing. Also, it surprises me how often fantasy empires and their rulers are written about in a positive manner (though not necessarily in the FR), because real life empires tended to be oppressive towards those they subjugated.
I agree with you. Greyhawk was ripe with kingdoms and empires. I prefer the diversity found in FR |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2007 : 15:57:26
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If you want more empires in Faerûn, just make them. It's YOUR game, so you can have anthing you want to.
You can also set the game in the past, during the period when Netheril, Calimshan, Jamdath, Raumanther, Narfell, Imaskar, and Mulhorand and Unther had Empires (although not all of them a the same time).
Or you turn the clock ahead 100 years and have the Moonsea, Corembian, or Luruar Empires, or even a brand new group in the Shar or the empty southern region of the western heartlands.
Its your game, and you can put in whatever you like. 
You peaked my interest: I think I'll find a PDF to download of Old Empires, its one of the two 2e FR products I missed.
@Wooly - Great Link, thanks for that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 10:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you want more empires in Faerûn, just make them. It's YOUR game, so you can have anthing you want to.
Yeah - if there wouldn't be the time necessary for doing this. I prefer reading some good and thought about source book only cause I never ever will have the same time-management as when “studying” on the university .
In general I agree with you – if you can make an absorbing adventure, it maybe that you don’t need the background – but with me, I have less problems with creating such a kick if I read about the land, the people, and the culture in one volume beforehand.
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Edited by - Matthus on 22 Jun 2007 10:19:37 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2007 : 03:02:55
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| Now that it has shipped to subscribers, I can safely reveal that the Volo's Guide article for Dragon #358 is about Unther, Mulhorand, and the current state of various factions therein. Enjoy! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2007 : 07:09:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Now that it has shipped to subscribers, I can safely reveal that the Volo's Guide article for Dragon #358 is about Unther, Mulhorand, and the current state of various factions therein. Enjoy!
Hooray! I can't wait to see this. I like this region, even though it goes against my usual "too much like Earth" bias. I really liked the information in Dragons of Faerun and Power of Faerun and I can't wait to see this article as well. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 04 Jul 2007 07:10:40 |
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The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 03:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Now that it has shipped to subscribers...
Hrpm. My local stores only got 357 yesterday. Things move slow around here. It will be mid-Aug before I get the next one.
What does PoF say about the region? |
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
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Five_X
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 05:17:49
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| Ha! Coincidentally, I found this while looking stuff on Mulhorand for my novel! Hopefully it'll get published, and if/when it does, you can expect to see some cool new stuff. |
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Herkles
Seeker
82 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2009 : 12:48:43
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| I am not sure if this would be helpful to you or not, but if you are looking for ideas for Mulhorand, you might want to check out Paizo's pathfinder stuff, particularly the one involving the land known as Osirion. It is an egyptian based area in their setting so it might give you some help and ideas for a game in Mulhorand. |
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Mulhorand
