| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jan 2009 : 22:34:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
I'd like to see how the newly changed Dark Elves cope.
Have they changed? According to the $E changes I know that all of their gods are dead except Lloth/Lolth. But considering she was the deity for the greater part of them, how does this constitute a change?
-Now we have Drow/Dark Elves.
*****Spoilers ahead.*****
-I finished reading Lady Penitant last night it blew me away. I thought it was a good story. The Redeemed Dark Elves will reproduce and make more Dark Elves. When Cavatina was welcomed into Arvandor brought A tear to my eye. Sorry if that spoils anything I dont know how to do spoiler blocks on this forum. If I did I forgot. Sorry fellow scribes.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
 |
|
|
Oriac
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 19:56:20
|
Lol Brimstone I had no idea you could be so emotional.
p.s. Brimstone, does that name have to do anything with Brimstone from the Vampiric Smoke Drake from The Year of Rogue Dragons series? |
Edited by - Oriac on 31 Jan 2009 19:58:24 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2009 : 23:14:43
|
-No Brimstone was going to be a Tiefling Warlock Infernal Pact. Brimstone Blackheart.         Or a Hellfire Warlock from 3E. 
-I will check out that Novel Series.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 06:42:05
|
To echo what Wooly said, the biggest disappointment I had with many characters was the shifting personality traits as the series went on. I thought that the first three or so books were fairly consistent in their portrayal, but the last three all felt . . . off. Not just from the first three books, but from each other as well.
Halistra went from being a potentially interesting character that we could follow into a "typical" conversion story for the Dark Maiden's church, into a wishy washy character that had me wondering why Eilistraee would ever grant her spells in the first place, because by the fourth book or so it seemed pretty obvious that she hadn't converted, she was just trying to "fit in" with whomever she was surrounded by.
Spoilers for the later books and all:
I wouldn't even have minded if Halistra had been killed for her faith and not survived her conversion, because at least that would lend some validation to the character's existence, even as it reaffirmed the harsh reality of a drow even trying to be good in drow society.
On top of that, the Lady Penitent series has to be one of the most . . . well, I'm trying to be as nice as possible here . . . pointless series that WOTC produced. While it was clear that WOTC wanted to trim the drow gods, as they did various other pantheons, it also seemed like they were trying to make drow more evil by separating out the good drow as becoming something else.
The problem is, this second goal seemed to go by the wayside, because not only did we see two "good" drow that were still drow in the prologue to The Orc King, but Rich Baker's comments about drow in Faerun at the Secrets of the Realms seminar at Gen Con 2008 fly in the face of these novels, i.e. that many drow have moved to the surface in places like Westgate, and that while they are mistrusted, its no worse than what races like tieflings deal with.
Add to those comments the super good drow epic destiny in the Dragon Magazine article a few months back, and it seems like the whole "any drow that are still drow are evil, period, forever" theme of the Lady Penitent books, and the lack of any comments about the non drow dark elves from the Lady Penitent series, seems to indicate that this trilogy suffered from design goal realignment that makes them kind of pointless in the end.
Not that I would have wanted them to be the standard for the Realms anyway, as I'm not sure I like mortal races that are automatically evil forever, nor did I like the relegation of Wendonai the Fiend of Corruption being turned into a guy that procreated his way into "winning" the drow for Lolth. |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 10:01:04
|
| Speaking about some races supposedly being "innately evil", Tolkien, the Grand Father of fantasy himself had some serious issues with that. He even wrote in his notes that there were some orcs who were not that nasty. We just didn't see them in the books. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 14:55:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Speaking about some races supposedly being "innately evil", Tolkien, the Grand Father of fantasy himself had some serious issues with that. He even wrote in his notes that there were some orcs who were not that nasty. We just didn't see them in the books.
This actually makes a lot of sense, especially when you see that a lot of 'evil' humans are also joining Sauron's party at the time. 'Like calls to like' or 'Birds of a feather, flock together' as it were.
I do think the reason you don't see the evil human's in any of the battles of Middle Earth in Jackson's films is because it would have effected his movie's ratings. Fantasy violence (killing orcs or zombies or robots) gives you a PG 13, where as killing other people gives you an R. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Vivaladeadman
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 18:02:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Speaking about some races supposedly being "innately evil", Tolkien, the Grand Father of fantasy himself had some serious issues with that. He even wrote in his notes that there were some orcs who were not that nasty. We just didn't see them in the books.
I completely agree. I believe there is capabilities for good and evil in everyone. Labeling a race as evil and therefore making every member of that race evil just doesn't make sense. I haven't started nor finished the Lady Penitent series but I've heard tidbits about what happens regarding the drow and dark elves. I guess I'll wait and form a more rounded conclusion after I've read it.
I'm a few chapters into Resurrection and as far as Halisstra goes I feel that ultimately the reason she chose Lloth over Elisstraee is because she loved Ryld so much she didn't want to see him damned to walk oblivion. That's the general feeling i'm getting but of course I haven't finished it yet so again I might change my opinion after completing it. |
Through darkness to light and back again. His future remains shrouded in mystery. He is everlasting, he is perpetual, he is the phenom, he is...the Undertaker |
|
|
|
Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 20:12:54
|
| Hallistra went nuts. That's why she's all wishy-washy. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 20:15:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Hallistra went nuts. That's why she's all wishy-washy.
Fine, but that doesn't make her a compelling character.
Also, it doesn't explain why Eilistraee would invest in her as her "last best hope" against Lolth, since presumably a deity would be able to see that she was, indeed, "nuts."
|
|
|
|
Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2009 : 20:17:16
|
| IIRC, it was evil humans riding those oliphants in LOTR. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 17:34:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
Hallistra went nuts. That's why she's all wishy-washy.
Fine, but that doesn't make her a compelling character.
Also, it doesn't explain why Eilistraee would invest in her as her "last best hope" against Lolth, since presumably a deity would be able to see that she was, indeed, "nuts."
I agree, on both counts. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 18:36:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
IIRC, it was evil humans riding those oliphants in LOTR.
True, but those were the only humans (besides the pirates that The Three dispatched). Figure 10-15 humans per oliphant and about 15-25 oliphants? Maybe 300+ humans at Pelennor fields on Sauron's side. And none at the Black Gate at all.
Not too mention that if you watch, the only 'evil humans' killed (on-screen) in the movie are Saruman, Wormtongue (both edited out of theatrical release), the Oliphant driver taken by Eomar's spear and the 10 killed by Legolas. Even the pirate they show Legolas killing is chalked up to 'accident' since Gimli nudged his arm when he fired the warning shot.
That's a long way from the scores of orcs, goblins and Uruk-hai killed on-screen.
But, this is way off-topic.
On-topic, I read through the books and have to agree with many of the others. Halisstra folded like an origami crane when she had any moral choice to make. Even when she joined the Eilistraee drow, it wasn't that she was choosing to be redeemed, it was that the peer pressure around her told her she should redeem herself, so she did. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 18:37:37
|
I liked the idea of multiple authors collaborating on one series ("WOTSQ"), but not the execution. As others have said, it turned out to be uneven. But I'd still like to see it done again, with a little more editorial control for consistency's sake.
I never really cared about Halisstra, but I did like the idea of a nearly-turned-good drow failing. I think the greatest intrigue with Zaknafein is that, despite his own instincts for questioning the ways of Lloth, he, too, failed to actually throw those ways completely off, himself. At the end of the day, the best he could do was to make snarky comments and then commit suicide.
I want to see more failures, and dramatic, compelling tales of their angst and misery. Let's see more of Lloth's grasp on her people, keeping them down and holding them back.
That would make the few success stories more special. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 18:58:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I never really cared about Halisstra, but I did like the idea of a nearly-turned-good drow failing.
That idea doesn't bother me... It's how quick it was that bothered me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 20:53:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That idea doesn't bother me... It's how quick it was that bothered me.
Agreed. Good characters are consistent, even when they're changing. Liriel Baenre is a good example. Halisstra went from being a Lolthite to being a Eilistraeen. That was done well in my opinion and was interesting to read. But at the end she switched back again and it was pathetic to read. Characters have to act consistently according to a reader's expectation. Drizzt, for example, is consistent and the society he grows up in is consistent. This means that when twists occur, the reader doesn't see it coming but accepts it when it arrives. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 22:10:48
|
Hmm, I have play Preistess and a Patron of Rilistraee Drow, even have a small community of them (smaller recently with lack of postes *sighs*) that has provided some interesting RP.
Over the gew years I guided the community in a few things based on my understanding of that faith (I still would like Ed to answer more questions I have asked him.) that include welcome with an open hand any Drow. I also had the other hand quick to draw a blade because Lolthians often tried to infiltrate (Mostly my NPCs but not always). I have done various methords of conversion, the rules never said it was automatic. No inteligent or wise follower should trust a new convert. The novel series compressed time of what should have occired over at least a year and likely longer as far as gaining trust and becoming a member of the party to kill Lolth. No Drow can earn trust quickly, this among the Drow would even take longer, humans with their shorter life spans could learn to trust a Drow that has lived in the community 100 years without causing alarm/damage to the cummunity. A Drow or for that matter could take 150 years to break a trust and it clearly not surprising considering their longer life span.
Drow should always be wary of twists when dealing with other long lived races. Failure to do so can be fatal. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Vivaladeadman
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 23:45:30
|
After finishing the last book in the WOTSQ series I can safely say I'm no longer miffed about Halisstra. I agree with the general consensus on the boards that the turn was way too quick. Overall I was satisfied with the series. I was entertained and learned a great deal about drow and some of their gods/goddesses.
I just started the Daughter of the Drow plus I should have the Lady Penitent series arriving soon. I'm excited to see how much carnage our beloved ex-Halisstra can dish out. Full of hate and demonic posession, should be good!
|
Through darkness to light and back again. His future remains shrouded in mystery. He is everlasting, he is perpetual, he is the phenom, he is...the Undertaker |
|
|
|
ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 11:24:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Vivaladeadman
I'm excited to see how much carnage our beloved ex-Halisstra can dish out. Full of hate and demonic posession, should be good!
Spoiler:
She does pretty much nothing other than pulling a few pranks and going psychotic on Eilistraee in the end.
As a result, the name of the series is plain inaccurate because it's not really about her. |
|
|
|
yshyi
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 18:09:54
|
I deeply apologize for any unintentinally hurt feelings or seeming arrogance on my last post. I allowed a friend to post a comment who is a bit passionate about this subject, and in defence of my friend, not all of us have perfected our writing skills. Thank you all for being the kindly folk that you are.
|
yshyi |
|
|
|
yshyi
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 18:15:02
|
I don't think the post my pal wrote was directed to Vivaladeadman but to Khorne.
|
yshyi |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 18:39:24
|
| Perhaps you should encourage your friend to sign up for his or her own account. It's going to be a bit confusing if we never know which one of you makes a particular comment. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
yshyi
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2009 : 19:20:48
|
Thanks for the advice good sir, I'll do that
|
yshyi |
|
|
|
skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2009 : 01:39:29
|
Hmm.. regarding Halisstra it never really occured to me to be disappointed. I mean, who really expected her to slay Lolth anyway?
I think she had a very interesting end in War of the Spiderqueen and a very interesting role in Lady Penitent.
Wooly, I can really recommend reading Lady Penitent! Great trilogy! If there was any deception in it, then it was what happened to Eilistraee and her followers at the end of book 3, but the series in itself was great. I loved the attack on Kiaransalee's temple in book 2! |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Miffed about Halisstra **Spoilers**
