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Bhaldackein
Acolyte
Netherlands
5 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2009 : 21:08:17
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Still brushing up on the Tuigans, I encountered this snippet on page 19 of "The Horde, Volume One" of "The Horde" Boxed Set:
"Semphar rebelled, establishing its independence. Murghom was attacked by the Havi, a large tribe of the Ejen Horo region. Although the nomads were stopped in the Mountains of Copper, their attacks contributed much to the eventual reduction of Mulhorand in the east."
Eh, the Havi? A large tribe of the Ejen Horo region? Then how come they are not on the Tribal Map of "The Horde" boxed set and are, to the best of my knowledge, never mentioned again in the boxed set, let alone other FR sources? Moreover, they are not even in EvilKnight's excellent "Forgotten Realms Index" (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/frindex/start.htm)!!!
Have I missed something? Are they a Taangan tribe? If not, to what ethnic group in the Realms do they belong? Any thoughts?
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"That's what they expect us to think, Lewis. Therefore, we will not think it..." |
Edited by - Bhaldackein on 21 Jan 2009 21:09:33
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2009 : 16:37:49
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Various tribes have come and gone over time in the region, and the history of the Wastes includes entire ethnic groups which have disappeared, like the Kalmyk and Suren.
We have at least four major ethnic groups in the region at that time - the Muhjari (from wence the Imaskari and Durpari come from), the Raumathari (which appears to be a Slavic-like people, and forerunners of the Raumathar and Rashemi peoples) The Taangan (a horse-nomad derivitive of the Eastern aboriginal Lung peoples), and the Shou (who were interlopers, and arrived at some point in the region of the Quoya, which was once fertile).
All tribes are of some derivation of those groups, with various percentages of the different ethnic bloodlines. Tribes come and go, and while some are subsumed by others (as the Commani recently were by the Tuigan), others break-away from larger tribes (like the Tsu-tsu did when they broke from the Fankiang).
My best guess would be that the 'Havi' were an early tribe of the Commani, who themselves had a large admixture of Muhjein blood along with the Tuigan heritage that nearly all of the tribes share.
Glad you found that one - it slipped throug the cracks of my research somehow. I'm currently working on a timeline and COMPLETE history of the Wastes, and that helps. 
Thanks --- Mark |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2009 15:34:31 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 01:33:30
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Please share with us, Markus!
The players in my game are finally heading out of Rashemen following their meeting with the Iron Lord, and they will eventually come face-to-face (or riverbank-to-riverbak) with the ten thousand Tuigan who have stuck around after the Crusade to act as cavalry auxiliaries for Thay's gem-golem invasion of Rashemen. (Yes, it's the Spellbound boxed set -- what need have I of Realms.New.Coke, eh?)
Thank you very much, Bhaldackein, for bringing the Havi to my attention. I intend to run the Riders of the Storm - Black Courser trilogy, but it makes little sense in a world in which Yamun Khahan's dead and his Horde has been defeated. Having a "lost" tribe like the Havi in the East makes many of those adventures playable -- one may simply assume that they ignored the call to the Quriltai after Yamun's death and are plannning to carve out their own empire in Tabot (and ... heheheh ... Solon).
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Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 18:31:08
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Its part of my on-going world History/over-history/geography/linguistics/racial geneology project.
Mostly backwards-engineering Tom Costa's language article into some sort of 'tribal migration' map of the early Realms.
At some point I plan on sharing the whole thing, but I need to complete the K-T history section first... and I've been a bit of a 'slacker' as of late. 
The Zakharan section was amazingly easy, though. Shows you how well thought-out that sub-setting was. Just enough history to make it easy to fit-in on any world - truly a brilliant design. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2009 20:58:47 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 20:23:35
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Its to bad Zakhara got lumped in with the other tagged-on areas of the Realms which were generally so and so. It was maybe the best realised setting TSR did, with hardly a bad product in its line. The mix of Hollywood Middle East and D&D fantasy works great and every box set is among the best adventures/campaigns done during the companies story-based period.
Not that I am a fan of the setting or anything . |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:03:33
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I tacked it onto the end of the Calimshan peninsula and shrank it a bit for my own version of the Realms, and it worked-out much better that way (logically - Calimshan is more like Ottoman Turkey).
However, if I ever re-do the map for a campaign again, I will probably instead move Calimshan east, and have it take the place of Var the Golden (and probably Estagund). I think that would have been the better route to go, in hindsight.
I do so love moving nations around in my 'Fantasy' FR.
Just out of curiousity (and this isn't really the thread for this, buuut...), would folks be at all interested in a 're-imagined' FR?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2009 21:05:06 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:07:23
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And then the information on Var could then be used to flesh out the city-states of old Calimshan instead. It would be a better fit in some ways.
Do you mean interested in seeing it done or contributing? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2009 : 21:18:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just out of curiousity (and this isn't really the thread for this, buuut...), would folks be at all interested in a 're-imagined' FR?
We already have one, thank you -- the most recent one from WotC.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Feb 2009 21:21:45 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 01:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its part of my on-going world History/over-history/geography/linguistics/racial geneology project.
Mostly backwards-engineering Tom Costa's language article into some sort of 'tribal migration' map of the early Realms.
At some point I plan on sharing the whole thing, but I need to complete the K-T history section first... and I've been a bit of a 'slacker' as of late.
The Zakharan section was amazingly easy, though. Shows you how well thought-out that sub-setting was. Just enough history to make it easy to fit-in on any world - truly a brilliant design.
Are you going to include the references to the Necromancer Kings from The Complete Book of Necromancers in your history of Zakhara, or sweep them under the rug as some DMS (and a few designers!) suggest doing? If you're waffling, my vote is to include them, tweaking chronologies so that they fit into the same age as the Geomancers of Zakhara. Given that Epic Vermissa isn't quite like the flesh and-and-ichor of Vermissa in The Complete Book of Necromancers leads to a few other problems, but I am confident that you're up to the job -- three cheers for you! {Infer cheering here.}
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 04:26:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its part of my on-going world History/over-history/geography/linguistics/racial geneology project.
Mostly backwards-engineering Tom Costa's language article into some sort of 'tribal migration' map of the early Realms.
At some point I plan on sharing the whole thing, but I need to complete the K-T history section first... and I've been a bit of a 'slacker' as of late.
The Zakharan section was amazingly easy, though. Shows you how well thought-out that sub-setting was. Just enough history to make it easy to fit-in on any world - truly a brilliant design.
[Dalor Darden Casts Rez Scroll...again]
Markus, do you have any maps laying about which show the routes of the tribes migrations as you envision them.
I'm a very visually oriented person, and this could GREATLY help with my ongoing research for The Ride project.
Specifically, the movements and incremental dates of the movements in addition?
That would be pure goodness right there man!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 21:54:20
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Now that I have Studio 8 in my greedy little hands, I can do that flash-thingy I always wanted to, showing various racial migrations.
But it will take time... I don't even have it installed yet.
I wish I could just have George Krashos and Ed Greenwood both tied to chairs so that I could pick their brains for about six months - I think that would be the only way to get the history of Abeir-Toril PERFECT. Maybe throw-in Steven Schend for his ideas.
I'd invite the Sage as well, just for his massive archives, but he'd probably lose the key to those archives and then show-up a decade or two after the project was completed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2010 21:56:03 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2010 : 00:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wish I could just have George Krashos and Ed Greenwood both tied to chairs so that I could pick their brains for about six months - I think that would be the only way to get the history of Abeir-Toril PERFECT. Maybe throw-in Steven Schend for his ideas.
We're always watching Markustay. Always. I'm enjoying the FR Titans/Giants thread and hoping you guys come up with a consolidated "Giant Timeline" some time in the future. I have resisted chiming in on a few things as I don't want to horn in on your little bit of the sandbox, but am very gratified by your dedication to including as much source material as possible and working out coherent, consistent explanations for some of the murkier bits.
Don't be scared to "overrule" extraneous bits of lore that "just don't fit" as long as you can tweak them to make them say different things to what was originally intended. Speaking from experience, there is a reason why the Realms has seen 3-4 different incarnations of Illefarn, and that reason is we couldn't explain away all of the references simply and neatly.
So, what I'm saying is, if you have to clarify that Ostoria as a realm was different to a precursor or succesor Ostoria as a region, or have a city "move" (why can't you have multiple Voninheims?) etc.
My post is now sliding into a different thread, so I'll clam up, but kudos for all the good FR work. Warms the cockles of this longbeard's heart.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2010 : 01:44:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now that I have Studio 8 in my greedy little hands, I can do that flash-thingy I always wanted to, showing various racial migrations.
But it will take time... I don't even have it installed yet.
Oooh! [Count Dooku voice]"I've been looking forward to this."[/voice] 
quote:
I'd invite the Sage as well, just for his massive archives, but he'd probably lose the key to those archives and then show-up a decade or two after the project was completed.
Better late than never, right?
Travelling with the SageChive shouldn't be a problem though. I'm using Elminster's Hideout as a storage space.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 12:13:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Bhaldackein
Have I missed something? Are they a Taangan tribe? If not, to what ethnic group in the Realms do they belong? Any thoughts?
Possible that these Havi are related to Gaumahavi (the purple dragon in the Storm Riders adventure, but it had other incarnations). Then they'd not be Taangan but related to the Gurs who are a Gypsy-like people (Indian origin). Ejen Horo is not just Taangan burial ground, it's sacred to the other tribes as well. Maybe they attacked Murghom cause Murghom practiced necromancy, at the time Myrkul was the crown-prince. |
Edited by - Quale on 02 Oct 2010 12:16:28 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 17:55:00
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The Havi could also have been called by other names.
Just as in the real world, a people can be called one thing in one place and another in a different place.
Just a thought.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2010 : 21:24:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Bhaldackein
Have I missed something? Are they a Taangan tribe? If not, to what ethnic group in the Realms do they belong? Any thoughts?
Possible that these Havi are related to Gaumahavi (the purple dragon in the Storm Riders adventure, but it had other incarnations). Then they'd not be Taangan but related to the Gurs who are a Gypsy-like people (Indian origin). Ejen Horo is not just Taangan burial ground, it's sacred to the other tribes as well. Maybe they attacked Murghom cause Murghom practiced necromancy, at the time Myrkul was the crown-prince.
Permission to borrow liberally from your ideas?
Great stuff there - I had assumed the Commani were some sort of 'Holy warriors' set to guard the ancient burial lands, but I think these Havi would fit better for that (given the linguistic connection to Gaumahavi - I can see 'Havi' meaning 'Holy'in Tuigan/Roushoum)
The Commani could have moved into that region after the Havi'disappeared'. I'm getting a 'secret order' vibe from them now - something akin to that group from The Mummy movie; Holy-Warriors who were tasked with gaurding the ancient tomb(s). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Oct 2010 21:25:40 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2010 : 11:13:15
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yes, except I think they would look a bit differently than that Tuareg/Coptic-like group in the Mummy, wearing lighter colors, the Gurs are Selune's children
it seems the Commani were based on the Cuman people |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 18:17:09
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Except that the Tuigan call Selune Bekal. 
That just one of the hundreds of new bits I got from that lore-filled novel (written by the guy that created K-T and designed The Hordelands product).
BTW, I've decided that Teylas is actually Talos, NOT Akadi, despite what the Hordelands supplement says. It was probably an error (David Cook wasn't super-familiar with the Realms), and I already have two different ways to fix it (and will be taking a poll on it when I eventually start a new Hordelands thread). Paradoxially, the 4e changes/lore have helped me with this (a Primordial COULD NOT have been granting spells).
Lets just say that the behavior of that god was definately NOT in accordance with what we know of Akadi (Yamun was Teylas' Chosen - he even shoots 'blue fire' from his fingertips at one point, and claims to have done it numerous times before).
I also got some history on the Kalmyk and Suren!
I will be adjusting some of my ancient history accordingly. Fortunately, it all still works, I just got new juicy canon bits to add in.
There was another thread about the novel - specifically Yamun's sons. I've managed to figure-out a work-around for that weirdness as well. I'm not sure why the authors of the 3e Hordelands Dragon article decided to make Yamun's youngest son Khahan (it was supposed to be Jadaran), but I will be re-reading the other two novels as well (I have to assume the other two sons died). I also have to repair a wee-bit of of lore regarding Tan-Chin around that time (fortunately, his unique Lich-nature makes that a fairly easy one).
The Dragonwall 'myths' are just that, according to the novel, but in one sentence they are re-confirmed. While most of the stuff about it says that the dragon's spirit was bound within the wall, I have a single line that kinda screws that up. Either way, there is no way in Heck the damn thing - even though it was a demi-power - was over a thousand miles long; something physical HAD TO have been added. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2010 : 21:32:44
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Talos sure is more suitable for the region, I've made a similar change a while ago, remembering from a few years ago when our archaeology professor talked about how central-asiatic herdsmen feared lighting more than anything. Interesting that the sea's name is Yal Tengri, Zeb Cook must have based Teylas on this.
As for Dragonwall, the size is too weird, like that things in Elder Evils. Wonder what will be Dendar's size when she bursts out.
It weird, but personally all dragons should be of that size. They are overexposed, the sense of awe is lost. I've combined the Spine of the World and the Crown of the World (from Golarion) for one such dragon, tough dead for now, but the Cult is working on it  . It should be the apocalypse if it breaks, the rest are just flying lizards.
I'm interested to hear about the Kalmyk and Suren. The Tan Chin and Suel connection is fanastic. At least for my homebrew lost Quoya civilization. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 19:52:02
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Thanks.
As for the Suren and Kalmyk, I need to look at my homebrew timeline, which I don't have access to ATM. My thinking now is that the Suren were the non-human element of the Kalmyk (which isn't that different then what I had). The Kalmyr leader is specifically called 'a man', but the Susen one is not specified (my 'out'). The only thing I'm really changing is how certain pre-historic events fell-out. I have also found a canon example of non-humans willing to work with the Tuigan (Ogres, but its a start).
As for the Dragonwall, obviously the Dragon's spirit is what is enchanting the wall in 'modern' times. The only way to get everything to work is to say that the original wall was perhaps a few miles in length, and specifically placed to stop one invasion. As the barbarians found their way around it, it needed to be lengthened with normal material (thus 'stretching' the dragon-spirit, and weakening it in the process).
They talk about 'the secret' of the wall - its weakness - and yet it seems many folks know of the myth (so how secret can it be, right?) So now my thinking is that the original wall created by Tan Chin was truly indestructible, and this 'secret' mentioned in the novel is the fact that the Dragon's power has been 'stretched thin' (literally), thus creating a weakness.
Also, why the hell would the material form of this demi-power have crenelations and towers... not to mention gates? Quite obviously it has been added-to and modified by the Shou. Tan Chin's 'magic mirror' must have captured the dragon's spirit, causing it's material (avatar) form to become inert (rock - just like any deity's form does in the astral, normally). That material was the basis for the wall, and more was brought in from the mountains and the wall was added-to over the next couple of centuries. The dragon's spirit was bound to the wall, as a type of soul-mortar, giving it its invulnerability. When this 'magical mortar' was released, an explosion occurred.
My thinking is that as the wall was added-to, it took many Wu Jen (and maybe sacrifices) to extend the power of the Dragon into the new sections. I also find it strange that only a 'piece' of the dragon was released by Yamun Kahan - I have to think on that. It really should have been 'all or nothing'.
My 4e plans for where the wall used to be are awesome, if I do say so myself.
I was going to do a CKC article on it, but Lord knows if another one of those will ever see the light of day, so what I have I will probably wind-up in a netbook. I need to find someone with a huge amount of artistic talent to paint my vision - and it has to be Free, so that's a bit of a hiccup. LOL
This is one of those rare cases where the art can make or break the lore, and I'm just not up to it.
Ack! I had MUCH more here but decided to wait until I create a separate thread for my project. I am basically getting back-into the Utter East again, using some of what we had for there, but chucking-out quite a bit. Sometimes the simple solutions DO work best. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Oct 2010 20:14:34 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 05:32:50
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Not to be pushy...but how goes that wonderful map, that flits about at the edge of my imaginations, regarding the movements of the various peoples (human, elven, dwarven or what have you) that you have been laboring on Markus?
I'll pay ye...mayhaps... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 10:51:18
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| MT your solution for the wall is pretty good, I was thinking before it was a sort of dragon of the Void, so dimensions would be irrelevant, even expanding it for the Shadowlands idea and the ratlings from OA. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 17:17:48
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Here is my thinking: The wall was of MUCh smaller size originally - I think 50-100 miles tops. As the wall was added to with physical material, more 'spirit energy' was needed, ergo my earlier idea of 'sacrifices'. What I think happened in the novel is that a single Lung dragon Spirit was released, perhaps even the original (that makes sense to the novel lore, but not so much in regards to the area affected).
This may have been voluntary, BTW. The Celestial Emperor favors the Shou Empire, and all spirit beings are part of the Bureaucracy. Except for the original dragon, because all sources say it was tricked, although the details differ slightly.
I will have to look into Void Dragons when I get home - I know I was planning on adapting a LOT of the 3eOA/Rokugon material to Kara-Tur. Not sure though, I have some new ideas since work on the K-T thread stopped. I think it might be better to isolate the somewhat thematic 5-Rings material to just the island nations (which I had planned to combine in the post-plague world).
Still a lot of thinking needs to be done - the most detailed info about K-T were part of the modules, and almost all of them were set in the islands.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Not to be pushy...but how goes that wonderful map, that flits about at the edge of my imaginations, regarding the movements of the various peoples (human, elven, dwarven or what have you) that you have been laboring on Markus?
Still not home, and I still haven't even installed any of my new programs. 
Trust me, I am dying to get back to my maps - some of the recent thread discussions has really given me the itch. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Oct 2010 17:19:34 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 02:38:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Not to be pushy...but how goes that wonderful map, that flits about at the edge of my imaginations, regarding the movements of the various peoples (human, elven, dwarven or what have you) that you have been laboring on Markus?
Still not home, and I still haven't even installed any of my new programs.
Trust me, I am dying to get back to my maps - some of the recent thread discussions has really given me the itch.
Yes, yes, indeed...excuses and more excuses. I need my map fix man!
More seriously, I understand completely. I was rolling through some serious writing before the semester started...now not so much at all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 03:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
a Primordial COULD NOT have been granting spells).
Just saw this. It got me thinking. Why do you believe that a primordial couldn't grant spells? That is, I agree that a primordial that is solely a primordial wouldn't/couldn't. But neither can humans. Yet, humans ascend to godhood all the time. Why not a primordial?
My occam's razor answer to the dilemma is that primordials like Ubtao, Akadi, Kossuth, etc, simply acquired a critical mass of material plane worshipers sufficient to imbue them with divinity. They just spontaneously "apotheothisized"--acquiring divine ranks suitable to the amount of worship they receive.
Primordials, I have always felt, can acquire divinty similar to a template, or a prestige class.
We know that fiends like Orcus and Asmodeus can acquire divinity, why not primordials?
In fact, Bahamut and Tiamat might be examples of that. They were offspring of Asgorath, who was definitively a primordial. Now, I don't know if they were ascended mortal dragons, and only metaphorically children of Asgorath, or if they were actually primordial by birth. But they definitely ascended to godhood. Then they got busted down to paragon status and lost their divine ranks, and recently re-ascended to godhood.
I figure the elemental gods are just powerful primordials that ascended to godhood spontaneously, find it bothersome, and simply rechannel all the energy they get from worship back to their clerics in the form of spells.
Ubtao, however, appears to have really relished his divinity, fostering worship among his people, attending to his godly duties with gusto. He might have not actually spontaneously ascended, but rather cut a deal with the gods to switch sides in exchange for help with the rituals needed to ascend to divinity.
Note that the primordials who ascended to divinity got to maintain a presence in Toril after Abeir was split off and sequestered. The few primordials that remained in Toril's material plane appear to have been imprisoned or entombed mostly. Siding with the gods and ascending to divinity may have been the only way to stay on the Toril side without getting locked up.
The elemental gods might have the unique privilege of maintaining contact with both Toril and Abeir. Now that is something to think about. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 08:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I will have to look into Void Dragons when I get home - I know I was planning on adapting a LOT of the 3eOA/Rokugon material to Kara-Tur. Not sure though, I have some new ideas since work on the K-T thread stopped. I think it might be better to isolate the somewhat thematic 5-Rings material to just the island nations (which I had planned to combine in the post-plague world).
I don't think there are void dragons in D&D, there are kodragons and astral dragons in the Astral, and stellar dragons from Spelljammer (that'd fit cause their size can reach millions '). There is a place called the Sanctuary of Sun Sing in quasielemental Vacuum, I thought the body of the dragon was there. But since the overexposure of shadowstuff, the Shadowlands idea became less appealing. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 21:37:50
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While I very much agree that the shadow-fluff has been way overdone (does EVERY novel have to have that word in the title?) in FR, strangely enough, it plays a major role in my over-cosmology, and therefor my own HB world I am working on. I suppose, since I had to think so much about it to get everything to work within FR itself (conflicting lore), I have embraced shadow.
However, in my cosmology both Shadow and Faerie are part of the Ethereal now. If you enter the Border ethereal (Wood between the worlds) you can either head for 'the light' and enter in the Feywild, or head toward the darkness and enter into the Shadowfel. It actually all the same place - you have to think in 3-dimensions. You travel 'up' toward the light, or 'down' toward the darkness, thus make both regions 'the Deep Ethereal'.
Beyond the Feywild lies the Upper Planes, and beyond the Shadowfel lies the realm of the dead - the lower planes. Its all about how 'deep' you go, not how 'far' (planer geography gives me a headache). Of course that doesn't work so well within the canon D&D cosmology, which is one of the many reasons I have split my own world off from the D&D rules and FR.
In that way, all fey exist within the Ethereal (where 'unseen' creatures should dwell), but their inclinations will determine in what direction they lie. The seelie Court lies within the Feywild, and the Unseelie within the shadow (naturally). Both Faerie and Svartalfheim are central (the heart) of those two sub-planer regions, and where the courts are located.
Humans can be found living in the Ethereal, along with plenty of other 'things', but they are less common near the courts of the Fey. All of those humans have some sort of ancient magical-creature bloodline that grants them 'The Sight' (the ability to see into the Ethereal and walk between the worlds). Many creatures also carry the Fey template there as well.
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
It got me thinking. Why do you believe that a primordial couldn't grant spells? That is, I agree that a primordial that is solely a primordial wouldn't/couldn't. But neither can humans. Yet, humans ascend to godhood all the time. Why not a primordial?
I think that because I was told by at least one designer that ONLY deities grant divine magic.
On the flipside, I think that is wrong, but I was working within the framework presented me by the RAW. Obviously priests (Shaman/Witchdoctors/etc) of these beings were getting spells from somewhere, so this notion is just plain silly IMHO.
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
My occam's razor answer to the dilemma is that primordials like Ubtao, Akadi, Kossuth, etc, simply acquired a critical mass of material plane worshipers sufficient to imbue them with divinity. They just spontaneously "apotheothisized"--acquiring divine ranks suitable to the amount of worship they receive.
I'm not loving that Primordials aspire to become something that, I personally feel, they created - the deities. Looking at it that way, why would the parents hope to become like their children? Isn't that a little backwards?
However, I have worked some of this out myself, along slightly different lines then you.
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Primordials, I have always felt, can acquire divinity similar to a template, or a prestige class.
I'm not precisely on-board with everything, but the 'Divine Template' idea I can definitely use.
Basically, the template becomes a 'key' to access the Prime Material plane. See below...
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
We know that fiends like Orcus and Asmodeus can acquire divinity, why not primordials?
Which is why I like the template idea.
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
In fact, Bahamut and Tiamat might be examples of that. They were offspring of Asgorath, who was definitively a primordial. Now, I don't know if they were ascended mortal dragons, and only metaphorically children of Asgorath, or if they were actually primordial by birth. But they definitely ascended to godhood. Then they got busted down to paragon status and lost their divine ranks, and recently re-ascended to godhood.
I had my own HB lore for these two, but I no longer care for it. I definitely think they were children of Asgorath, but in a less literal sense (the primordial dragon route you speak of). In my HB, Asgorath is a Drękon - an Elder ('Watching') God, beyond even the Primordials. His deific children (the Draconic Pantheon) are Primordials (Jotuns/Titans in the Celestial Tongue), and the Bahamut and Tiamet are ascended primordial dragons (making them deities - the lowest 'tier' in the divine food chain). All of these divine tiers can be referred to as 'gods'.
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I figure the elemental gods are just powerful primordials that ascended to godhood spontaneously, find it bothersome, and simply rechannel all the energy they get from worship back to their clerics in the form of spells. <snip>
The elemental gods might have the unique privilege of maintaining contact with both Toril and Abeir. Now that is something to think about.
I have thought along these very lines myself - that these beings were among the scant few allowed access to both worlds. However, I have other ideas about how they handled their worshipers and spell-granting.
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Ubtao, however, appears to have really relished his divinity, fostering worship among his people, attending to his godly duties with gusto. He might have not actually spontaneously ascended, but rather cut a deal with the gods to switch sides in exchange for help with the rituals needed to ascend to divinity.
Interesting. I still think, though, that being a 'deity' is actually a step-down from being primordial: More on this at the end.
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Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Note that the primordials who ascended to divinity got to maintain a presence in Toril after Abeir was split off and sequestered. The few primordials that remained in Toril's material plane appear to have been imprisoned or entombed mostly. Siding with the gods and ascending to divinity may have been the only way to stay on the Toril side without getting locked up.
Agree with most of this, but I would say 'descended', not 'ascended'. Mind you, when I write FR cosmological lore, I try to still make ALL the other mythologies work as well (wherein the deities rebelled against their creators). To me, that means the Primordials were 'higher up' the divine food-chain then the deities.
Now comes the fun part - using lore to patch lore.
We know that Ao has blocked deities from entering Realmspace. We also know that Ao can compel deities to follow their portfolios (when they aren't behaving themselves), and strip them of their power at will. Ao, is in fact, a Planer (Spheric) Guardian. He is above the Primordials, but still one of them, I think. He is what I would refer to as as 'Elder Ordial'.
Between every 'layer' in the divine echelon there is an 'in-between' layer. Think of these being as the 'farm teams' - (minor league) players for the group above them. Demi-powers (Exarchs) are the in-between stage of mortals/deities, and High Gods take the same position between deities and primordials (these are Pantheonic leaders, like Maztica, Fate, the Celestial Emperor, etc).
Using this progression, and following the lore, we see that Ao is 'above' the Primordials, since he is able to imprison them and force both the gods and primordials to heed his decrees. However, he apparently can't build a crystal sphere from scratch*, so he isn't as powerful as members of the next group up - the Elder gods (called 'Watching Gods' by Ed, and dubbed Drękons by me). This is why I feel Ao is an 'Elder Ordial' - basically a demi-Drękon in power, sititng just above the FR gods and primordials and 'ruling' them (as high gods do their pantheons).
So, now that I have explained all that (to what end I'm, not sure ), I think the primordials are indeed 'above' deities in the pecking order. BUT, I think everything above the level of deity is not allowed to directly interfere with mortals or enter the Prime Material. Look a it this way - the corporate executives of microsoft have the keys to the executive washroom, but they aren't allowed into the factory to touch the microchips (which they would destroy through contamination).
In that way, the deities have much more leeway when it comes to the Prime Material and the Crystal Spheres then the Primordials, even though the Primordials occupy a higher position then them. I don't know if this is the way it always worked, or something Ao decreed after the Godwar (which is what I think). What it also means is that any Primordial who cares to interact with the mortal world would have to do so through intermediaries, OR take a pay-cut and a demotion down to the level of deity. I doubt too many Primordials would want to do that voluntarily (except, perhaps, Ubtao), so I think some of them (like Shar, Aumanator, and Selūne) may have lost a good deal of their stature during the god conflict. Although that meant they lost power, it also means they gained the ability to directly act upon Toril and their worshipers.
I had some HB lore about Amaunator and the godwar in the fey thread (I connected the whole thing to the Black Diamond affair), but the internet ate that. Hopefully I will be able to put all of my thoughts about the history of Toril (and the universe) into a single place soon.
*I think this because as far as we know, Abeir does not exist in a separate sphere. It seems to somehow be hidden within Realmspace's sphere (perhaps in another dimension). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Oct 2010 22:24:30 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 21:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, in my cosmology both Shadow and Faerie are part of the Ethereal now. If you enter the Border ethereal (Wood between the worlds) you can either head for 'the light' and enter in the Feywild, or head toward the darkness and enter into the Shadowfel. It actually all te same place - you have to think in 3-dimensions. You travel 'up' toward the light, or 'down' toward the darkness, thus make both regions 'the Deep Ethereal'.
Beyond the Feywild lies the Upper Planes, and beyond the Shadowfel lies the realm of the dead - the lower planes. Its all about how 'deep' you go, not how 'far' (planer geography gives me a headache). Of course that doesn't work so well within the canon D&D cosmology, which is one of the many reasons I have split my own world off from the D&D rules and FR.
In that way, all fey exist within the Ethereal (where 'unseen' creatures should dwell), but their inclinations will determine in what direction they lie. The seelie Court lies within the Feywild, and the Unseelie within the shadow (naturally). Both Faerie and Ravenloft (renamed) are central (the heart) of those two sub-planer regions, and where the courts are located.
Humans can be found living in the Ethereal, along with plenty of other 'things', but they are less common near the courts of the Fey. All of those humans have some sort of ancient magical-creature bloodline that grants them 'The Sight' (the ability to see into the Ethereal and walk between the worlds). Many creatures also carry the Fey template there as well.
It's very similar, except the inner planes/ethereal are divided into three and don't have Ravenloft, and psionics is sort of different from magic. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2010 : 22:31:34
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I changed it after you posted that. My concept is ever-evolving, and (obviously now) Ravenloft is a bad idea as a center point to the Unseelie Court.
I went with Svartalfheim instead.
Ravenloft still exists in the Mists of the shadowfel, but at the far end, near the realm of death.
The 'mittlemarch' (Wood between the Worlds) is the central region, between the Feywild and Shadowfel, and houses the Twilight Court.
Hence I have three as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 01:28:53
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I see where you are coming from, but don't necessarily agree that the primordials created the gods, or that becoming a god is a step down from primordial.
The way I figure, there are paragons or "arches" of each category of plane. Primal spirits are paragons of the Material Plane--an unfortunate name, by the way, as it is easily confused with the term Primordial. Primordials are paragons of the Elemental Chaos (Or Elemental Planes, including Quasi- and Para-, all recently blended together to form the Chaos). Archfey are paragons of the Feywild. I'm not sure what the Shadow Lords are called (Arch-Shades?) but they derive their power from the Shadowfell--Hey, perhaps the Shadevari are Arch-Shades instead of Primordials; that's another possibility. And gods are just beings that derive their power from the Astral, and/or the collective power of mortal belief, of which the Astral seems to be, in part, composed, or at least propagates as a medium.
You mention that a designer told you that only a god can grant spells, and actually I agree with that. But in so far as primordials can acquire divinity like a template (if that's the right metaphor or mechanic) then that would make them both a primordial and a god, so they should be able to grant spells without violating the rule.
Now, as for why I don't think that primordials created the gods, the 4e FRCG states (p.42) "Unknown to the primordials, detritus remaining from its creation coalesced around the universe as an ocean of silvery liquid. From this glittering realm of starlight formed beautiful twin beings, polar opposites of each other, one dark and one light. The twin goddesses birthed of the Astral Sea quickly moved to defend the virgin worlds from the destructive primordials." So the glittering realm was the Astral, it appeared sort of spontaneously--unknown to the Primordials. And from the Astral formed Shar & Selūne. How and when they formed is not stated.
My own take is that as the Astral formed it started immediately propagating ripples of thought and belief from newly emerging life, perhaps even the plankton of the oceans and basal creatures.
Now herein lies a "chicken or the egg" puzzle: Did Shar & Selūne create life in the Realms? Or did they coalesce from the divine essence emanating from newly evolved/formed life as it leaked into the Astral? I tend to favor the latter theory, that life created Shar & Selūne. But alternatively, my backup theory is that, in the absence of life, they formed (inadvertently) from the thoughts and mental energy of the primordials themselves, who, in so far as they are sentient beings, could have emanated whatever quintessence that leaked into the Astral in sufficient quantities that Shar and Selūne were able to spontaneously form.
As for overdeities, I still favor the notion that they are what deities ascend to after they max out their divine ranks. Just as you need an epic ritual to ascend to divinity, I think you need a similar epic ritual to ascend to overdivinity, and that creating a Crystal Sphere is one way to do that, which is why there are so many. Now, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Primordials of similar rank also being able to ascend to overdivine status. In that sense I suppose it is possible that Ao might have been a Primordial before he ascended. But in my mind he started out as a god.
Creating Realmspace was like writing and defending his doctoral thesis. Or his Eagle Scout project. Krynn's Highgod did something similar. The Lady of Pain may have similarly crafted Sigil, if she is of that ilk. I suspect there are other types of rites you could do to gain overdivine ranks; creating Crystal Spheres is likely just the most common method. Probably destroying a Crystal Sphere would work equally well--and there is an example of that in Spelljammer lore, at least of a Shattered Sphere, although I don't know if the act was used to power an overdivine transformation.
We know that there is something above Ao, and presumably that is an entity with greater overdivine ranks than he. Some may argue that Ao's boss is the "DM" or Ed himself. But I like to think there is a whole hierarchy of overdivine beings doing god knows what up in the higher dimensions. I imagine that keeping the multiverse separate from the Far Realms, protecting it from incursions or from being absorbed by it, is a high priority. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 23:44:01
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I like a lot of your ideas, and my theories are always evolving. Love the idea of planer Paragons (especially the part that the primordial Shadvari may be Shadow-paragons).
The piece I wrote that got erased by accident covered a LOT of bases, and I linked stuff that was never meant to be linked, which 'stretched' the timeline out concerning certain cosmic events. I don't think the War of Light & Darkness happened at the beginning - I think it happened after the rise of the Creator Races. That bends a LOT of canon, but I think it fixes more then it breaks. After all, what can beings like that consider 'a little while' or 'some time later'?
I will be re-writing that bit soon, and will hopefully get lots of input from you, Quale, and everyone else interested in building a 'better' Realms Genesis. Not 'better' as in better-written, but rather a more logical progression of the events that lead-up to the Realms we know.
Had lots more here, but this isn't really the thread for it. After I write something I will create a thread to discuss it, and see where it needs changes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The "Lost" Tribe
