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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 19:34:24
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I tried to figure out a title everyone would click on, without throwing in any sort of '3e vs 4e' references.
So I've been slowly working my way up to a new idea, which I've only brought into it's 'full glory' in the last day or two, with the help of input by various posters on BOTH sides of the fence. I think there may be a light at the end of the tunnel for FR, if the guys at WotC would just listen to ALL the fans.
Thats why I posted this here, even though I have been bandying the idea about in several threads over at WotC boards - strangely enough, I think its more likey to garner official attention here then there.
Here it is...
Novels should be set in the past - ALL of them. I have been getting feedback from many of the people who are running and enjoying 'the New Realms'... and they don't want any novels! Many of them feel that is what ruined FR for them the first time around - the constant RSE's, and all the lore certain players knew more about then their DMs. Most of the guys I have spoken with say that they always wanted to run FR, but were driven off by the lore - mostly the novels! In fact, at least one has gone as far as saying he will "play in the new Realms... until the novels ruin it again".
Hmmmmmm... you don't say? <evil grin>
The other thing I have come to note in the past three years of my quest to devour everything 'Realmsian' is that most of the REALLY big lore-jockeys - those people who most of us go to with FR questions - don't even PLAY in the Realms! <gasp>
For instance (and I hope he doesn't get annoyed by my using him here), Lord Karsus (Dagnirion here) is the main author/project manager of the Elves of Faerūn, more commonly known as the Elven Netbook. Did you know he doesn't play in the Realms? He plays in his own homebrew! In fact, my own Realms are so completely changed from the official one I'd have to call it a homebrew as well.
So, the bottom line is, most of the people who read the novels DON'T play the damn game... or at least not in the Realms. Most of the folks who play in the realms - most especially the people now using the New Realms - don't want anything to do with novels.
What if they kept all the novels in the past (Ye' old Realms), and all the source material (including Dragon articles) in the 4eFR era? Naturally, there would be some cross-pollination, but for the most part, I think this would be the far more lucrative route for WotC - catering to each group with a different product branch. In time, I think it would even 'heal' the rift in the fanbase - everyone would have what they want. We'd get conclusions to all those great story-lines from the past (a'la Schend's Blackstaff Tower), and the new players won't have to worry about novels "ruining their game".
Whats everyone think? I've posed this over at WotC, and I have to say I was VERY surprised - so far I have a 100% consensus by everyone - something unheard of on the Net! This has got to be the first 'solution' to anything anyone has posed that both sides (and all the extremists and neutrals as well) can totally get onboard with! I have total agreement right now (until someone comes along and ruins it), and I think even most of the authors would really like this. In fact, here is something I added to my last post over there -
quote:
Edit: In fact, I'd be willing to bet money that both RAS and Ed - their two big author cash-cows - would prefer to write in the past. They were the only two from the original meeting who were against the 4e Realms from the start (although they eventually came onboard - I have a feeling it was more of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" thing, but whatever).
There may be a couple of authors that may prefer to write in the 'lore-lite world of 4eFR', but they have to ask themselves - are they writing stories so they can hear themselves talk, or are they writing them to make money? In the long run, I think far more past-focused novels would sell then anything set in the 'modern' era. After all, I have thus-far gotten a consensus that 4e DMs DON'T WANT 4e novels set in FR!
It seems to me to be a no-brainer to give everyone exactly what they want, and in time everyone will be back on the same page - with people just loving the Realms, instead of complaining about everything that is wrong with it. In fact, I'm sure many DMs like myself could enjoy both - gaming in the new Realms for the Freedom it provides, and digging into all the nooks and crannies of the past in the novels. In retrospect, I can see now that the fanbase was always divided into 'lore addicts' and 'FR players' (with, of course, a few people being both - those are the ones that are now the 'neutrals' about the changes).
This is truly a 'Have your cake and eat it too' solution.
I think the responses here will be the REAL test, and I'd love to hear from some of the 'published types' as well. Please don't post vitriol either way here - I just want people's take on this idea. Complaining about "wanting it to go back to the way it used to be" is unproductive, and is never going to happen. At least this way, we will all still have a part of the Realms we enjoy.
Thanks for listening --- Mark T.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2009 04:55:53
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 20:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There may be a couple of authors that may prefer to write in the 'lore-lite world of 4eFR', but they have to ask themselves - are they writing stories so they can hear themselves talk, or are they writing them to make money?
Don't have much to say about your post at large (other than that I'm a 4E DM and I like the 4E novels), but I do feel compelled to point out that I don't think any Realms author, whenever along the timeline they've set their work, writes either to "hear themselves talk" or, primarily, to make money.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 20:36:06
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Good thoughts, MT, and your devotion to making everything happy for everybody is commendable. I happen to disagree with you, but I don't want you to take any of that personally--we both love the Realms and want to see them prosper, so this is a good discussion to have.
First off, for the record, I don't really care which way the novels go. If WotC wants novels in 1e-4e, I'll write 'em. The only relevance is a slight change in the way certain things work (like magic) and the lore setting--I've got plenty of stories in mind that work for all different eras in the Realms. Writing in 4e allows me to expand on the 4e stories I'm working on right now (see Downshadow), writing in 3e allows for expansion of my older stories. All of which I love.
Secondly, while I would be open to writing past-tense novels (as noted), I think the "fix" under discussion (which I'll refer to as this idea) is an illusory one, as illusory as the "problems" with the Realms that led to the setting reset.
I think your method of inquiry is a well-meaning but unintentionally fallacious one. You're interviewing those DMs, who--as you yourself assert--tend not to read or (potentially) know anything about the novels, and they are returning a high rate of responses that say "send the novels to the past." IMO, this doesn't reflect an attitude about "where would the novels best be put?"--the DMs interviewed are more likely thinking "get the novels out of my way." So it's no surprise they agree whole-heartedly with your scheme.
And this takes us back to the whole big question: So there are DMs, players, and loremasters who don't read the novels--so why give the novels any weight? Players and DMs have always, always, ALWAYS been free in the Realms to use whatever lore they want and ignore whatever they don't. It's a GAME. To let yourself be "put off" from enjoying the Realms just because there exist Realms novels (novels you don't read, know anything about, or use) makes no sense--it's just depriving those who think the other way of something they enjoy.
What we should really do is interview a similar subset of *novel readers*--people who actually buy the novels, whether they play the game or not--and see what they say on this point. Maybe they'll agree as well, though I suspect that high levels of agreement in that poll would have more to do with nervousness regarding the 4e Realms, rather than thinking about how the novels interact with the game setting across editions. (Unfortunately, you're far less likely to find hardcore FR readers on the WotC boards, which have historically supported the game side far more than the novel side--you might find more here, though.)
The best support for this idea would be an interview of people who both play and read the Realms, who agree with this idea. Ask them what they want, in terms of 4e novels vs. freedom in play (and, as I said, the novels were never meant to be handcuffs). Personally, I imagine that in the group of people who like the 4e FR and want to play there, that there are at least some who want to read stories set in the 4e Realms--for inspirations about their own games, character concepts, etc. After all, they're not getting any more 4e FR sourcebooks (at least, not unless WotC changes its plan). I mean--please correct me if I'm wrong. I know I personally would be WAY more likely to play 3e if it's supported by novels than 4e if it's not.
And I think that the "constant RSEs" is not an issue with the distinction between 3e and 4e novels, but rather with the whole FR novel concept. I'm personally of the school of thought that focuses on keeping events small and personal, rather than RSEs--where you care about the personal struggles of that band of characters, even if you know the "world goes on anyway." (Though the sales numbers on RSE novels still tend to be higher, apparently, than stand-alones or "small" stories. And if WotC wanted me to write a RSE, I would totally do it. Of course.) But that's a separate issue, and one that has been discussed a lot, so I'll leave it there.
That there are "loremasters" who don't play in the Realms (like Dags and a dozen others) is a totally separate issue and offers neither support or argument to this idea. I myself know a lot about the Realms and write novels in the setting but only play maybe 3-4 Realms games a year (sessions, not campaigns). There is not now, nor has there ever been, a reason that you have to PLAY in order to embrace and enjoy the setting.
Finally, while it is noble to want to "give everyone exactly what they want," we've learned from history and experience that that isn't possible. If, hypothetically, you were in charge of FR and made this change, you'd certainly please some people--but I guarantee you there are people out there who'd go "what? Another major change? I was just getting used to this!"
Now then. I want to reiterate that I don't really care one way or the other. If we wrote old-school (1e/2e) Realms stuff, 3e Realms stuff, or 4e Realms stuff, I would be equally happy. I just don't think it's this all encompassing solution. (I know, I'm such a downer!)
Cheers
P.S. I also wanted to address this point:
quote:
There may be a couple of authors that may prefer to write in the 'lore-lite world of 4eFR', but they have to ask themselves - are they writing stories so they can hear themselves talk, or are they writing them to make money?
Speaking only for myself, I write for neither of those reasons--I write in the Realms because I like telling stories in the Realms. It isn't a vanity/ego thing, but rather a genuine desire to create stories that readers will enjoy. That's why I'm a writer, and that's why I'll write whatever's best for the setting.
It isn't about the money. If I wanted money, I wouldn't bother with writing fantasy novels, but rather focus more aggressively on my day job, which is considerably more boring but pays a lot, lot, lot better. I make at least ten or twelve times as much in a year at my day job than I do writing one novel for WotC a year. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 21:31:28
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Totally agree with Erik's points and probably more diplomatic then what I would have posted. It just comes down to the nuts-and-bolts of things. If you want to appease people then you aren't going to get much of anywhere in life. It is an impossible goal, I know from past experience so I don't even bother.
While I enjoy sometimes reading FR novels, I don't read them all the time. And to be honest most novels in the Realms just don't appeal to me from say other fantasy novels that don't use D&D rules as a restriction. It allows for more creativity to not have such restrictions in my eyes to allow the author more room to breathe. Maybe the writers that just spoke would disagree with me, but that at least is my opinion on the matter.
That isn't to say I don't add in FR lore from those books into the world. I have on numerous occasions, but I'm not a lore-thumper like some people that tries to get everyone to conform to everthing Ed or WotC decides is the Realms.
Personally, I wouldn't put too much stock in WotC forums from what I've read over there. Also I don't post there for a number of other reasons, but to be on point they care only for rules not story by a great majority. So I'm not surprised they agreed with your idea. Plus while I think you had the best of intensions it won't be heard by the people that make the decisions and if it does probably won't be followed. But you as a DM can always set the personal tone of your campaign and can allow what is and isn't in your Realms, as Erik just said.
Anyways, while a noble gesture, I would just suggest do what you want with the Realms and let the other people do what they want with their Realms. Because neither is right or wrong just different. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 21:59:35
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Hey MT. I've been following (and participating in) the conversations on the other board, and I appreciate your olive branch, but I have to agree with Erik's comments on the fact that most of the new players (at least the ones posting at WotC), don't want any novels because they see them as 'getting in the way'. I consider myself a lore-jockey (in-training at the very least), yet I don't read every single novel that comes out. In fact, the Realms novels I read are not because they are set in the Realms, but because they are written by authors I enjoy reading.
Also, do we want to set the novels in the past because 'some' people don't like the novels? Isn't that the argument that many are using as to why the Spellplague and everything happened? I think it may lead to more division instead of unification.
What I disagree with mostly is the 'company line' that all novels have to be set in a certain time period. It's a big world with lots of history. Authors should be able to write stories they want in any time period and any location. Two of my favorite novels were Elaine's Evermeet and Ed's Cormyr, both of which detailed long periods of history of the Realms. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 22:02:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other thing I have come to note in the past three years of my quest to devour everything 'Realmsian' is that most of the REALLY big lore-jockeys - those people who most of us go to with FR questions - don't even PLAY in the Realms! <gasp>
Just wanted to chime in on this... in my group, there are three constant players and there have been others who come and go over time.
Of the three core players, On of us reads every novel, one of us reads none of the novels, and one of us reads selectively. None of us like the idea of the 4e change. I'm the in-between guy, and I honestly can't say why certain novels appealed to me enough to read them or why some don't. I primarily DM the games, having taken over for the previous co-DMs who moved on to other things in the past. The previous co-DMs were both big novel readers. Most of the other players that have come and gone don't read the novels.
One of the biggest non-issues hasbeen the one player who is a hardcore novel reader. Occasionally, he'll reference a novel and ask how the storyline impacts ongoing events in the game, but usually just to see if its relevant or being ignored. There has never been an instance of "you can't/shouldn't because" pertaining to novel events. The novels don't affect us playing one way or another. Its nice, at times, to have the added lore from novels... but it doesn't really make a difference. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 22:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For instance (and I hope he doesn't get annoyed by my using him here), Lord Karsus (Dagnirion here) is the main author/project manager of the Elves of Faerūn, more commonly known as the Elven Netbook. Did you know he doesn't play in the Realms?
Eh, actually that's not true anymore. He doesn't run any Realms games, but currently he is a player in one, along with me.
As for the topic? I will say that if WotC ever happened to decide that all future novels would be set in the past, I would not be unhappy about that. On the other hand, it might be the type of thing that would turn out to be less than desirable once we actually got it...
quote:
There may be a couple of authors that may prefer to write in the 'lore-lite world of 4eFR', but they have to ask themselves - are they writing stories so they can hear themselves talk, or are they writing them to make money?
Wasn't this a little uncalled for? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Jan 2009 23:00:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 23:58:05
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I've gamed in the Realms, but not a lot. I would do so, but I'm not even playing D&D right now. If there was a local, non-4E Realms game going on, I'd be doing what I could to get in on it.
I like the novels. I'll grant that there have been some real stinkers, but there have been some good ones, too. For me, having both novels and sourcebooks makes the setting more complete for me. There is only so much gamebooks can do to make you "feel" a setting.
I'll agree with a couple of other points presented here, too. WotC and TSR before them have kept almost all Realms novels set in or quite near the current year -- and I want some more delves into various times in the past. I don't want it to get like Dragginglance, where despite a flourishing novel line, nothing happened unless Weis and Hickman wrote it -- but I don't think taking a totally hands-off approach to the past is the right solution, either. There is a happy medium, and I've not seen them even try to approach it.
The other thing is the RSEs. There is plenty of room for smaller tales in the setting, and in fact, most of my favorite Realms novels don't involve RSEs at all -- the books by Elaine and the duo of Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak are some of the best ones we've had to date. Hells, one of those tales starts with a single person just trying to figure out where some mysterious tattoos came from, and culminates with her trying to free herself from the control of others. It's a great story, and it has little impact on the wider Realms. Erik wrote a great book set in and around one community. I've said more than once that there are thousands of tales remaining to be told in the Realms, and the majority of them are ones that don't affect the larger setting.
That said, I don't mind the occasional RSE. But I want it to be something that contributes to the setting, offering changes and new opportunities while remaining something that fits the overall feel of the Realms. I think the reappearance of Shade didn't really fit the overall feel. The Rage of Dragons -- while a good read -- was an RSE that didn't really have any impact. The WotSQ was to me absolutely pointless, and I simply can't understand why people like it so much. The Last Mythal did a pretty good job of offering changes and new opportunities, contributed to the setting, and fit the overall feel. There are a couple of things I wasn't happy about with that trilogy, but it was the best of the RSEs inflicted on us by 3E.
So it's possible to achieve a balance between fiction and game material, and to have a balance in the fiction between smaller tales and larger ones. I think that in 2E, they were mindful of these balances. It is my opinion that with 3E, the shift became more towards doing whatever it took to get money -- and that's what has hurt the setting. All the RSEs and not worrying about the past caused a lot of damage to the setting. And making the fiction focus be RSEs is why people think they have to read the books to know what's going on -- because the big events are described there. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 00:56:01
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I do not DM in the Forgotten Realms, I DM in a Forgotten Realms--my Forgotten Realms. As far as I'm concerned, everything published about the Realms is optional for my campaign. It's a smorgasboard, and I choose only what I want. Fortunately, I've never had a player who was a FR loremaster. I'm not sure what that dynamic would be like, but I don't think it would be a huge problem for me.
Also, I am not a huge fan of FR novels. I have read several by authors whom I liked, but my reading only amounts to a fraction of the novels available.
In short, it's not going to matter to me what time period the new novels are set in. It makes it easier for me if the novel stuff doesn't find its way into game products, or if I don't have to go read a novel to get the details about something that appears in a game product, but ultimately, I don't care. I won't be DMing in the 4e Realms anyway, so if they want to move all the novels up to that time period, that will suit me just fine.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 05:19:10
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Certainly not the response I was expecting, given the responses at WotC.
Anyhow, I didn't mean for any of that to be insulting - what I meant by that rather callous (sorry) sounding comment was that you can write stories YOU want to have happen, or you can write stories that will sell well. As Erik was nice enough to point out - he persoanly does not like RSE-type novels... yet they sell better.
I happen to think that stories set 'in the past' (pre-Spellplague or within twenty or so years of it) will sell better, because it just seems to me that the novel-readers are all fans of the old setting.
At least, thats the impression I got.
If fans of the old setting bought most of the novels, and fans of the new one have little or no interest in novels, then I thought this was a viable solution.
perhaps not... 
And Rinon did indeed have a point - this may fall under the "be careful what you wish for" heading.
I suppose if novels sales start to dip, they would do something along these lines anyway, regardless of any silly internet thread/idea. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2009 20:12:36 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 14:57:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...what I meant by that rather callous (sorry) sounding comment was that you can write stories YOU want to have happen, or you can write stories that will sell well.
Here's Gene Wolfe, answering a question in a David de Beer interview at the Nebula Awards site:
Q: The Commercial vs the Artistic in writing - is there a genuine difference between these two philosophies or are they artifical attributes? Are they in opposition, and if so, can they meet?
A: The difference seems to me very genuine. The error is to think them antithetical. The purely commercial writer writes for the editor. The purely artistic writer writes for himself or herself. I write for the reader. As long as the editor buys it, I dont much care what he thinks of it. If its a good solid story, thats enough for me. But if the reader doesnt like it, its a failure.
[emphasis mine--CR] |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 16:01:50
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To address another point:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhpw, I didn't mean for any of that to be insulting - what I meant by that rather callous (sorry) sounding comment was that you can write stories YOU want to have happen, or you can write stories that will sell well.
I don't think that's really a valid dichotomy. I don't think any of us FR writers write stories we DON'T want to happen, and sometimes those stories sell well.
For instance, Paul Kemp's trilogies run the range between small/personal and large/realms-shaking, he's really pleased with them (according to his blog, he writes in the Realms because it lets him tell the stories he wants), and they sell well. (Justifiably!)
quote:
As Erik was nice enough to point out - he persoanly does not like RSE-type novels... yet they sell better.
I wouldn't paraphrase my response in that way. I have nothing against RSE-type novels, and I enjoy those equally with small-scale. Though I know Wooly doesn't like it, WotSQ was very enjoyable for me, and Last Mythal, and the Avatar series was some of my favorite Realms stuff, not to mention the latest Cale trilogy, which just finished last month.
There are tons of good small-scale novels as well as large scale ones. Consider the 1st Erevis Cale and Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy, which I consider to be extremely awesome, and I highly recommend them to people, and yet they aren't epic in scale.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 13 Jan 2009 06:05:42 |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 17:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If fans of the old setting bought most of the novels, and fans of the new one have little or no interest in novels, then I thought this was a viable solution.
There's no question that a lot of DMs have a problem with the way the novels change the setting. So what you may be seeing is that those DMs moving to 4e are hoping to escape the dominance of the novels, while DMs staying with the older Realms are hoping the novels will move forward in time. Both are motivated by the same desire, but each has a different solution to the problem.
Personally, I think the best solution is to ignore the novels, but people have been saying that for years, and the complaint is still out there.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 19:39:54
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DMs that don't like novels interfereing with their game, must examine why the novels are interferring with their game.
Most likely the DM is able to ignore the lore from the novels, so that shouldn't be an issue. The only real issue I can see is that they have a player that wants to see that lore alive in their DM's game.
So to this idea it would seem for every DM that wants the Novels out of their way, there is at least one player that wants them in their way.
The biggest allure that FR has to me is that it is a living world. The novels, and updates from the supplements brought the world alive. I want to play in a world that is alive. To me, it is as if the DM has several DMs supporting him.
If I was at all interested in 4e, I wouldn't see this idea as a solution at all. |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 20:36:24
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Why do I feel I put my foot further into my mouth, hten pulling it out?
It just seemed to me the trend in 3e was to write that novels that 'impacted' the Realms (read: RSE). I had always thought this was a bit of a conceit on the part of some authors, wanting to leave 'their mark' upon the Realms. Small stories - the kinds I personally prefer - don't leave a lasting impact on the Realms (like Sentinelspire).
It has nothing to do with the quality of the novels themselves - thats a totally fdifferent point, but what I saw was alot of people wishing the constant RSE's would stop, and instead we just kept tgetting them more and more fequently, until it got to the point we were getting one a year, and the writer's 'ran out of room'.
One author - I'm not sure who now, it was awhile ago (Rich?) - said they wrote their seires to fall out in the year of the Risen Elfkin, but some other author had already 'grabbed it'. That sounds to me like people were staking claims on all the Roll of Years names just to write RSE's.
I really doubt Ed had an 'arms race' in mind when he first thought of year names.
Anyway, the RSE's seem to be one of the major contributing factors to the re-boot - we wrere expressly told the timejump was to give authors "more room to write".
So if thats the case, won't they immediately start running out of room again? I had assumed that was what the 'lost century' was for, but now that seems to have just been a bunch of rhetoric. How can they have 'more room', if novels are once-again taking place in the current timeframe, and pushing it forward all over again?
Writing 'in the past' seems to be the ultimate solution to slving many of the problems the novels caused, and people always want to know more about the Realms past.
And didn't RAS pretty-much make a name for himself writing in the past? I know that caused one or two continuity gaffs along the way, but I rather see novels back-filling over 'holes', then shoving the setting forward like a run-away train.
But whatever, I'm sure they have lots of 'secret reasons' for the decisions they make, based on all sorts of data we never hear about. Perhaps they are depending on people who just read the Forgotten Realms novels, and are clueless about the game setting - my niece's boyfriend is one of those - he didn't even know their was a game attached to Drizzt.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 02:12:51
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I vote for whoever's plan gets Elaine writing in the Realms again !
I myself I "just read novels" , excepting Dragon FR articles and peeking at sourcebooks.
I don't really like the Spellplagua and is aftermath yet, but am enjoying the new novels. As long as they feel like the realms I love. (and I love swords, magic and little technology) So for me , I am still "in" , I will just avoid the spaceships that came in with abeir( aboleths, st al) as they make me want the Enterprise D show up and launch photon torpedos!
I think there is a place for everyone in the realms, but we just might have to look a bit to get settled in. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 05:02:50
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| I like having the novels exiled to a different setting altogether, for a game I don't play. (Sure, they call them the Forgotten Realms and D&D, but just because they put the trademarks on 'em doesn't make it so.) It keeps me from getting upset at yet another stupid RSE. I don't care about how Dragonlance gets mutilated, and I have a similar lack of interest in how Spellplagueland gets abused. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 05:27:59
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Reading this thread, made me really acknowledge that my source material for the Forgotten Realms will essentially forever be unmolested. =)
I just have to find that perfect gaming group to play all over the forgotten realms like I've always wanted to do. =) |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 06:45:13
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The roleplaying game / setting / gamebook product model that TSR pioneered is a three-headed beast. It has many positive commercial and artistic advantages as well as contradictions. Say in a future iteration of D&D the designers decide that drows have become over-used and forbid it as a playable race. Does that mean R.A. Salvatore should not be allowed to write Drizzt novels? Or yet another RSE details a huge change that has positive (awesome! cool! don't miss it!) implications for the games set in FR. And the setting books and even message boards won't go into the details and spoil the books (which is how it is on Candlekeep.) So are players forced to read the RSE novels?
Also, D&D and its settings (Eberron, DL, FR) are at times victims of its own independent successes. Would anyone really been upset about the changes to FR in 4e if Ed had not created such a remarkable world? Would the mistaken view that FR is primarily about the NPCs been so prevalent if the Dark Elf novels did not achieve such success?
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Edited by - RodOdom on 13 Jan 2009 11:31:40 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 09:34:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... Thanks for listening --- Mark T.
Is it okay when I was just reading?
Well, interesting ideas. First, the realistic view is that authors will have to pay their bills and thus if WotC decides that all novels will be written for the 4E Realms, so be it. Authors can either decline and not getting money out of the Realms or agree and write novels within the new setting - which need not to be bad at all of course. A chosen few may have the muscle to write pre-Spellplague stuff, e.g. Ed Greenwood.
Second, we may have to accept that most if not all pre-Spellplague material will from now on be "fan fiction" or conversion of AD&D stuff - of which a lot is about and untouched so far. The latter is what I'm doing right now. You'd hope that WotC will not impose some Guidelines for Websites anytime soon, of course.
Elven Netbook and all ... the problem here is - and I said that over at the WizBoards too - that it does not distinguish between lore and fanfic as much as it should do. Hence, I have not and will not participate. Either I produce "converted" lore or I produce "marked" fanfiction, but not old lore mingled with fanfic and not discernible for the "casual" reader at that. Just MHO, of course. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 13 Jan 2009 09:36:08 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 13:02:30
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| I would be one of those middle neutral people who enjoy playing in the realms aas Player and DM and reading all the novels. I have to be quick here, so I'll just say that if they could at least allow and publish more stuff about the past, disregarding the present/future or not, would be great, especially to finish stories that need finishing. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 14:07:14
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Allowing authors to write novels in whatever era they like would probably be the best solution, since the writers can then write exactly what THEY want (which always makes for a better story - I can usually tell when something feels 'forced' in a novel).
In fact, if the novels were taking place all over the place chronologicaly, like they do in some other series (even WoT went backwards with New Sprong), I don't think people would even have a leg to stand on with their arguments about which is the 'correct' timeframe for FR.
After all, could someone tell me what the correct 'date' of Star Trek is right now? Not only did the last series (Enterprise) go pre-original series, but the movie coming out is going to be about the original crew, but with different actors.
Or better yet - whats the timeframe Doctor Who takes place in?
If we have a break from a set timeframe in the novels, people won't have as much to argue about when the game-setting skips around. However, if you force all the writers to write in the current game era, then you are also forcing the readers to read in that era- and people generally don't like to be 'forced' into anything. You are literally taking the choice out of the fan's hands as to 'which version' of FR they must follow.
Just my thoughts for the day - make of them what you will.
About Elaine - I really doubt she'll be coming back - they pretty much went out of their way to wipe-out everything she did in the Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2009 17:03:41 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 14:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
DMs that don't like novels interfereing with their game, must examine why the novels are interferring with their game.
I think this is a very important notion that DMs need to self evaluate. Even if not the orignial intent of Wenin, it is the exact question they should be using when forging what they hope to get out of the game or what they hope their players will glean. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 15:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
About Elaine - I really doubt she'll be coming back - they pretty much went out of their way to wipe-out everything she did in the Realms.
I haven't kept current on news about the authors. Can you give me more of the story on that, or tell me where to find it?
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 16:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin
DMs that don't like novels interfereing with their game, must examine why the novels are interferring with their game.
I think this is a very important notion that DMs need to self evaluate. Even if not the orignial intent of Wenin, it is the exact question they should be using when forging what they hope to get out of the game or what they hope their players will glean.
Good point. I'd like to expand on that.
Novels interfere with ones game when they start to change the Core Assumptions of the Realms (This of course requires players to be up to date with the novels). As an example of Core Assumptions changing, lets take the Return of the Archwizards and the Last Mythal trilogy. Prior to those two novels, the Elven Race on Faerśn, while not in decline, had been in retreat for many years, and was generally 'hidden'. After both, the Elven Race on Faerśn has been thrust to the forefront, with Evereska highly exposed, and Myth Drannor having been restored.
Now, lets take a game set in Cormyr. You decide, for a change, to move up north to the Dalelands, to have a adventure in the ruins of Myth Drannor. A player, who has kept up with those novels, thinks 'Oh! We are off to see the Elves in Myth Drannor!', innocently assuming that this is the current situation. However, as a DM, you've decided to not let those novels affect your game. This can lead to a clash between player and DM, which isn't good.
Now, one way to resolve this would be if the novels published for the Realms weren't RSE's. Then it doesn't matter where or when they are set, as they are concentrating more on the characters and small scale events, rather then blowing up large parts of the world, which increases the chance of them impacting on individual DM's game world. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 17:11:45
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Thats a discussion for another thread. I've seen the "Novels/lore ruined my games!" argument time and again over at WotC, and while I have been finally convinced of it's veracity (to some extent), I still place the majority of the blame with the DMs who let their players run the game, instead of the other way around.
But you can't tell THEM that... 
Anyway, I don't want to get in trouble for derailing my own thread, soooo... anymore comments about what era we'd rather see novels in?
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
I haven't kept current on news about the authors. Can you give me more of the story on that, or tell me where to find it?
Its not really my place to be her spokesperson, but they got rid of Halruaa and Evermeet - two major regions she helped detail - and they took the Tree of Life to another place, completely negating the ending of Evermeet.
The city she created at the end of her awesome novel was named, and then destroyed, in one or two lines in the GHotR.
So far they've left Liriel alone, but it's probably only because she slipped under the radar. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 17:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Now, lets take a game set in Cormyr. You decide, for a change, to move up north to the Dalelands, to have a adventure in the ruins of Myth Drannor. A player, who has kept up with those novels, thinks 'Oh! We are off to see the Elves in Myth Drannor!', innocently assuming that this is the current situation. However, as a DM, you've decided to not let those novels affect your game. This can lead to a clash between player and DM, which isn't good.
The way I see that conversation going is that I say I'm not incorporating those events into the campaign, and the player says, "Oh, okay." Why should he say anything else? I suppose he might ask why not, and I would tell him, and then he would say, "Oh, okay."
Have other DMs encountered players who thought it appropriate to dictate to them how they should run the Realms? If so, how did you deal with it?
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 17:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
I haven't kept current on news about the authors. Can you give me more of the story on that, or tell me where to find it?
Its not really my place to be her spokesperson, but they got rid of Halruaa and Evermeet - two major regions she helped detail - and they took the Tree of Life to another place, completely negating the ending of Evermeet.
The city she created at the end of her awesome novel was named, and then destroyed, in one or two lines in the GHotR.
So far they've left Liriel alone, but it's probably only because she slipped under the radar.
Not to mention, they basically took all of her moonblade ideas and went in a totally different direction with them...
It almost comes across, though, as if it's believed they were deliberately sidelining her. I can't see them doing that... I think it's more of what I've been noticing since 3E came out: continuity has simply become less and less important. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Jan 2009 17:23:46 |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 17:25:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its not really my place to be her spokesperson, but they got rid of Halruaa and Evermeet - two major regions she helped detail - and they took the Tree of Life to another place, completely negating the ending of Evermeet.
Those are 4e changes?
quote:
The city she created at the end of her awesome novel was named, and then destroyed, in one or two lines in the GHotR.
quote:
So far they've left Liriel alone, but it's probably only because she slipped under the radar.
She's a hot drow femme fatale. Who'd want to get rid of that?
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 18:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats a discussion for another thread. I've seen the "Novels/lore ruined my games!" argument time and again over at WotC, and while I have been finally convinced of it's veracity (to some extent), I still place the majority of the blame with the DMs who let their players run the game, instead of the other way around.
Indeed, this debate has been the source of a lot of recent strife over on the WotC boards.
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
The city she created at the end of her awesome novel was named, and then destroyed, in one or two lines in the GHotR.
Just a question--did Lamruil actually found a city by the end of that novel, or did he just state his intention to do that? There's a difference. I just don't recall the details. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 19:20:05
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Ahhhh...
Thats the funny part - he was leaving to found just such a city, but hadn't actually left at the end.
However, the city itself - in all it's grandeur - is on the cover of the novel!
I believe that was actually pointed out to me by Brian James (although I could be mistaken).
Ergo, we must assume that the city was indeed founded, since the novel does include a picture of it. 
Thats probably the main reason why they couldn't just say "Lamruil never got the chance".
Instead we got all that weirdness about the Tree being brought back to Evermeet and then sent off the Myth Drannor.
As a side note (and I don't want to derail my own thread anymore then I have to) - I personally always felt it should have gone to Myth Drannor - thats the exact place I thought of when I first read about the Tree in the Evermeet sourcebook. So while I am happy to see it made it to where I felt it 'belonged', I am unhappy about the retcon. I beleive that lore, once written, should bever be changed.
The solution George came up with is adequate, though, and probably the best that could be used given the circumstances.
@Wooly - I do get the impression that there is a certain amount of 'Entitlement' (to use their own lingo against them) by the 'in-house' guys concerning the 'toys' of the setting. It seems as if a freelancer uses something they wanted to, they just overwrite what the other person wrote... which isn't very polite in a 'shared' setting.
I had more here, but this has gone on long enough, and I'm sorry for the interruption.
On a related subject (and also trying to change the current subject) - How can WotC possibly be making as much money as before, if they are not producing tons of sourcebooks?
Was the DDi supposed to provide most of their income? Was that the plan? I just don't understand how the 'lore-lite' approach to a setting is helping a company that is in business to sell books.
This is related to the original topic, in that we are getting very little in the way of Realmslore these days. It just seem strange to me that all of the sales are geared to two sourcebooks a year, a few adventures, and novels.
Were the splatbooks that non-profittable, that they have gone nearly novel-only for print? 
I'm just desperate for more 'old-school' realms-love these days, and I'm just not seeing it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2009 19:23:05 |
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Some Hope...
