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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 12:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by gomez
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I could NOT have anyone clearly and baldly say they were "lovers" with anyone else
That is pretty sad. I makes me wonder what century those editors were from. I really hope that changed now.
Keep in mind that when the Realms was first published, we weren't too far past the days of Jack Chick and the "D&D is evil" crusade of some prominent religious figures. They were desparate to avoid anything that cast D&D into a bad light, to the point that they "kiddy-fied" a lot of things. Evil could never be triumphant, even momentarily, everything from the Lower Planes got renamed into baatezu and tanar'ri (I actually like those names!), brothels were renamed "festhalls" (where a festive time would indeed be had!)... It's kind of surprising that in Spellfire, Lhaeo got away with saying people thought he was a "simpering man-lover". |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 13:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ahhh... Insomnia has gotten a hold of me and I've been trying to tire myself out by searching the scrolls for information on NPCs of Candlekeep. On the brigh side, I am tired enough to go to sleep. However, my searches have not found any information on personages of our fair 'keep.
Specifically, could you provide us with some details on the Gatewarden, the Chanter, the Guide and some of the Great Readers?
Ashe, in case you weren't already aware, you may wish to read Ed Greenwood's Introduction to Candlekeep, written especially for us herein, and which features some details on the various positions and personalities of Candlekeep.
My thanks, Sage! I had read through it (and it's an excellent source), but I was wondering more about the 'names and faces' of those personages I listed. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 14:44:51
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Ah.
Ashe, you might also want to view Kuje's NPC file. I recall that it listed several of the Candlekeep personages referenced in the Realmslore. 'Twill make for pleasant reading while awaiting Ed's reply.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 16:49:30
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Hi again, all.
Ashe, the names and faces of the individuals holding those Candlekeep ranks have of course changed over time. That's one of the reasons Ed's Candlekeep piece (written for the site) keeps vague about the office-holders, as opposed to the offices. The other reaon is that Ed wanted to give DMs maximum freedom in their own campaigns to insert, move, and tailor NPCs to best fit the unfolding action in THEIR Realms.
As anyone who's read Ed's early - - and still unpublished - - Realms short story "The Endless Chants of Alaundo" can tell you, those office holders sometimes change quickly.
Wooly, I believe Ed got that particular phrase into the published SPELLFIRE because Jim Lowder protected it, in the editing process (while vetoing some of the more tortured Ed medievalisms like "think ye me a codloose winker?" [[translation: Do you take me for a flirt who really does sleep around?]]). 
gomez, I agree that, yes, "pretty sad" describes it. Wooly's right about the state of thinking that prevailed from time to time, and khorne, what changed was the personnel at the company, over time, AND the general attitude of American society, over time, and therefore the approach taken to Realms novels.
BTW, for Zandilar and everyone: Ed wasn't saying that you need repeated sex scenes to confirm orientation in a character OUTSIDE Realms fiction writing, ever.
He was saying that back then, in Realms writing, that would pretty much have been the only way to make orientation clear, being as you weren't allowed to explicitly state anything about sexual matters, and being as the only hints he would have been able to sneak into print (kissing and hugging and occasional not-detailed glimpses of nudity) prove nothing at all about sexual orientation.
Ed has family visiting (again!) but is still charging along in the novel: into Chapter 19, and over halfway in total allowed wordcount, and still (he tells me) having a LOT of fun!
love to all,
THO |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 16:56:21
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| Thanks, goodsir and milady! That's what I was thinking, I just thought I'd see if there were any particulars floating out there in the ether. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 17:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
As anyone who's read Ed's early - - and still unpublished - - Realms short story "The Endless Chants of Alaundo" can tell you, those office holders sometimes change quickly.
Is there any possibility that we'll ever see some or all of this tale at one point in the future? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Aug 2009 17:18:55 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 20:13:04
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I hope so. TSR asked for and was sent it FOUR TIMES over the years (starting in 1986), but repeatedly "lost" it, so it's never been published. Ed has plans to offer it to Wizards for free website publication, as a "long lost root tale of the Realms," after he's got the current novel first draft safely submitted.
We'll just have to see what happens...
love,
THO
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 21:43:19
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Hello all,
Ed quick question, are there magic items that negate the need for sleep for more than 24 hour period, limitations or side effects if there are such items. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 06:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I hope so. TSR asked for and was sent it FOUR TIMES over the years (starting in 1986), but repeatedly "lost" it, so it's never been published. Ed has plans to offer it to Wizards for free website publication, as a "long lost root tale of the Realms," after he's got the current novel first draft safely submitted.
We'll just have to see what happens...
love,
THO
Mmm... early Realms fiction... On a somewhat related note... how are matters proceeding regarding another hopeful "free website publication" regarding Cormyr?  If this is waiting until the novel is at the above-described stage, I understand completely and will continue to be as patient as I possibly can.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 04 Aug 2009 06:58:36 |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 15:07:44
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
My reply was specifically about confirmation, and the inability to do that under the limitations placed on me (before and during 2004, not so much now) in Realms fiction - - unless I limited myself to one-dimensional characters. And to one-dimensional behaviors (i.e. that kissing and hugging are always a prelude to sex or a signal that the characters involved are in a sexual relationship).
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, because despite that policy, relationships of a sexual nature (only ever heterosexual, of course) still managed to make it onto the page, unless I am completely misremembering things. One of the very first Realms novel I ever read had a prominent relationship between two characters front and centre, and there was a couple of not-so-very subtle hints that Narm and Shandril had sex at some point (always of a fade to black nature, of course, but the hints of what they got up to behind that black curtain were there and very clear to me as an older teen (I might have been 18 or 19 at the time)).
quote:
I could not have gleeful dwarves hug each other (because, according to one editor, that meant they were in a sexual relationship [to which I could only reply, "Huh?]). I could NOT have anyone clearly and baldly say they were "lovers" with anyone else (I know - - I tried!), though I could sneak close to such a statement by having an angry noble accuse someone of being so-and-so's "lover," or have some known-to-be-rude-and-crude character like Torm or Mirt allude to such status, and even have "known crazies" like Elminster or The Simbul (yes, "known crazies" was how one editor described them) utter "lovers" or "they're together" or some such - - but I couldn't have either a narrator or an "average polite" character say any such thing. The old (TSR days) Code of Ethics even specifically prohibited mention or inference of homosexuality.
So what you're saying is that you couldn't show any PDAs, but the Simbul sitting, half clad, on Elminster's lap telling him how lonely she was, was perfectly A-okay?
quote:
The limitations have changed over time, yes, but so have the sort of stories I'm telling, so I stand by my reply re. my opinion about confirmation.
I am not sure what to say, because the way I see it the status quo has been kept for the most part. I don't see much difference in between the way (heterosexual-seeming) relationships were portrayed in Spellfire to the ones portrayed in Blackstaff (just to give an early and lateish examples of Realms novels).
I think I must be missing something here. 
quote:
Please note that I never said that confirmation was necessary or desirable; I happen, as a writer, to always want the "elbow room" that ambiguities leave for later plot twists.
And as you know, I can signal like crazy. The ongoing problem has been the tendency for editorial hands, especially in the older days, to take happy, ongoing female-female pairings and male-male pairings and change the genders of some of the participants to shift them to male-female.
Examples please! Enquiring minds want to know. (That is, of course, if you're allowed to say.)
quote:
And as my Realms writing is work-for-hire and as "we're not in the business of telling Realms stories that are ABOUT sex" (to quote a long-gone editor), fights over those changes were lost causes.
Sex is caught up with a lot of baggage (mostly rubbish) in our society. America in particular seems to hate it fiercely and yet can never get enough.
Still, we really don't need Realms porn (though that could be fun  ). You can have homosexual people represented in fiction, though, without it being porn or even tasteful erotica.
quote:
Too-deep adult content (such as those very "protracted sex scenes" I mentioned) are still "off the table" these days, because those are still not the sort of stories Realms novels are supposed to be concerned with. Yet the Knights trilogy in particular allowed me to hint and calmly state and show more than ever before (except in the "hothouse" books SILVERFALL and ELMINSTER IN HELL). Those who've read my fantasy novels set outside the Realms know that I can and do get more specific, when the tale heads in that direction.
I may well have to go back and read the Knights trilogy again, but I do recall plenty of heterosexual activity and umm... nothing much on the other front. Maybe I missed something - I hate saying that, because as a writer myself I'm supposed to be a little more observant - and back in my high school days, I'd never have missed such hints. I guess part of it is just sheer disillusionment, never seeing what I'd like to see, and just... not looking for it anymore.
I have tried to read a non-Realms series of yours before, but I couldn't get into it for some reason. I'll have to give it another try because I go through phases in my reading. At the moment I'm reading quite a bit (I've been reading David Webber's Honor Harrington series, which have been quite good reads for anyone interested in military science fiction or strong female characters (or universes where the gender ratio seems to be close to 1:1 )).
quote:
So the reply of mine that you reacted to was not a "call for more sex scenes" or my opinion about my own inability to describe sexual inclination in any other way than repeated same-gender or opposite-gender sex scenes - - it was my opinion that within the "window of opportunity" that Realms writing allowed me, readers could only be sure of a character's inclination if I limited myself to very clear-cut, simplified characters.
I didn't think you were calling for more sex scenes. To be honest, that wouldn't bother me at all (and I'd be quite happy to see more, but I know the audience that the novels are aimed at, and understand why it would be inappropriate). What I am bothered by is the implication that homosexual relationships are only defined by the sex that occurs within them (and that usually means only anal intercourse, because obviously lesbians are about as real as the Easter Bunny). You might not have meant it, but it is there. It's actually a common assertion by the anti-gay lobby, which is why the unfortunate implication touched a nerve.
I am also rather puzzled by the last bit there - you could only show their inclinations by turning them into shallower characters? How does that work? (Keeping in mind that I've never asked for confirmation, simply representation (not caring if the character is homosexual, bisexual, heteroflexible, transgender, or intersex).)
quote:
I did not and do not think that a reader should necessarily be "sure" of anything in a Realms novel, so long as they don't feel cheated by a writer who makes belief-shattering changes and plot twists that repeatedly rob scenes the reader has enjoyed of the meaning the reader though they had. (No one likes being tricked.)
Tricked? *takes a deep breath and thinks things through this time*
Well, we are never sure about people's sexuality, why should we expect to be sure in a novel. On the other hand, Dumbledore was gay. We only found out because J K Rowlings said so after all the novels had been published. We had some hints given, but they only made sense in hindsight (much like the subtext about the relationship between Yanseldara and Vaerana in The Veiled Dragon only became apparent after the publication of the FRCS for 3rd Ed). Most people just assume "heterosexual until proven otherwise", which is why this is so very tricky.
For example, you've told us Myrmeen Lhal is bisexual. But if we were to go only from her appearances in novels and short stories, we would certainly conclude that she was heterosexual. While the fact that she is bisexual means we have representation, it's representation in the closet. No one who doesn't post to this forum and/or read your replies on this very subject would know, they would assume (and reasonably so) that she was straight.
There really has to be a better way, don't you think?
quote:
So I think we're on the same page. If the way in which I wrote that reply upset you, I'm sorry about that, because I'm not in the business of upsetting people, in life, unless it really can't be avoided. And this CAN be avoided.
Very hard to stay annoyed with you, you know. (Which is a good thing too!)
I'm sorry for being overly touchy on the subject.
quote:
You're always welcome at my table, Zandilar. (Tea?)
Hugs,
Ed
*hugs* Why thank you, I think I will. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 20:03:18
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A question on the Spin a Yarn tale, part one:
Is this tale 'canon'? I am asking because it means Volo is still alive in The year of the Ageless One (and quite healthy apparently). Don't know if Mirt is - it is a bit hard to date some of the events (the fact that Volo hadn't heard of it meant it would have been recent, but other details make it less likely).
Just wondering if this earns Volo is also alive in Wizards' Realms. And how he would relate to, ahem, family.
As an aside, this must have been the silliest tale I have read so far. Mind, I had expected it to play pre-Spellplague.
Gomez
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 20:56:10
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Hi, all.
gomez, Ed tells me the tale is post-Spellplague, the story briefly alludes to how Volo "made it" over that missing century (and why he's a bit "out of the loop"), but as for Mirt, Ed tells me he can't reveal the fate of everyone's favorite fat brawling moneylender yet.
Note that "yet."
And if you think it's silly so far, just wait . . .
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 04 Aug 2009 20:57:23 |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2009 : 21:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
gomez, Ed tells me the tale is post-Spellplague, the story briefly alludes to how Volo "made it" over that missing century (and why he's a bit "out of the loop")
Have to await the remainder of the story then, I guess. I wonder if it will reveal anything regarding family though (ah, I'll ask him at GenCon). |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 04:13:57
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There are a lot of questions I'd love to ask Ed at GenCon, but most of them are NDA'd and probably still will be the next time GenCon comes around to Seattle, which is the only way I'm getting there.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 17:30:17
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". . . a little too risqué for Candlekeep"?
Sage, IS there such a thing?
We may, of course, have to readily resort to euphemisms for certain pungent and commonly-known words, good old Anglo-Saxon and otherwise, but I'm sure the question itself can be posed and discussed.
The Realms is, after all, an imaginary world, and therefore anything said about is by definition theoretical in nature.
We can even use perfectly innocent (well, to a computer, if not to our minds with their well-developed imaginations) words, like "Peter" for the male naughty bit, "Bubbles" for feminine upperworks, "Velvet" for feminine lowerworks, "Warmcoin" for prostitution, and so on. See? Easy? I'll be happy to provide any demonstrations deemed necessary, and . . .
Just turn off the smoke alarms before we begin, will you? THERE'S a good boy.
Oooh, and THERE'S a good boy, too, I see.
See? Easy!
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 18:21:27
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Hello again, all.
Zandilar, I bring you Ed’s response, to specific (quoted) passages from your most recent post:
“That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, because despite that policy, relationships of a sexual nature (only ever heterosexual, of course) still managed to make it onto the page, unless I am completely misremembering things. One of the very first Realms novel I ever read had a prominent relationship between two characters front and centre, and there was a couple of not-so-very subtle hints that Narm and Shandril had sex at some point (always of a fade to black nature, of course, but the hints of what they got up to behind that black curtain were there and very clear to me as an older teen (I might have been 18 or 19 at the time)).”
Hints made it onto the page, but as I was saying: for a reader to think they “knew for sure” a character’s orientation from such hints would be a mistake. Yes, the heterosexual was toned down and kept, and the homosexual wiped away (for Code of Ethics reasons; one must remember that in certain states of the United States homosexuality was itself still illegal at this time, and references to it in fiction were by definition “obscene” in the criminally punishable sense - - as a Canadian, that made no sense to me, because if you can’t even mention something it can never be discussed and therefore dealt with in any way). My one sex scene with Narm and Shandril consisted of a single sentence, AFTER a long, long period (cut from the book) of the two of them concluding they’re entombed alive and will die there. It was this sentence (also edited out of the book): “They twisted and arched fiercely in the darkness.”
(A lot more than vague, but a lot less than detailed, yes?)
“So what you're saying is that you couldn't show any PDAs, but the Simbul sitting, half clad, on Elminster's lap telling him how lonely she was, was perfectly A-okay?”
Yep.
“I am not sure what to say, because the way I see it the status quo has been kept for the most part. I don't see much difference in between the way (heterosexual-seeming) relationships were portrayed in Spellfire to the ones portrayed in Blackstaff (just to give an early and lateish examples of Realms novels).
I think I must be missing something here.”
In the beginning, everything I wrote was toned down. Later on (STORMLIGHT and especially SILVERFALL) I was actually asked to “sex things up a bit. Just a BIT, now . . . but a bit.”
“Examples please! Enquiring minds want to know. (That is, of course, if you're allowed to say.)”
I’m not, yet. If times and places when and where permission arises, I will give examples.
“Sex is caught up with a lot of baggage (mostly rubbish) in our society. America in particular seems to hate it fiercely and yet can never get enough.
Still, we really don't need Realms porn (though that could be fun ). You can have homosexual people represented in fiction, though, without it being porn or even tasteful erotica.”
True, True, True (and true), and true. You’re preaching to the perverted. ;}
“I may well have to go back and read the Knights trilogy again, but I do recall plenty of heterosexual activity and umm... nothing much on the other front. Maybe I missed something - I hate saying that, because as a writer myself I'm supposed to be a little more observant - and back in my high school days, I'd never have missed such hints. I guess part of it is just sheer disillusionment, never seeing what I'd like to see, and just... not looking for it anymore.
I have tried to read a non-Realms series of yours before, but I couldn't get into it for some reason. I'll have to give it another try because I go through phases in my reading. At the moment I'm reading quite a bit (I've been reading David Webber's Honor Harrington series, which have been quite good reads for anyone interested in military science fiction or strong female characters (or universes where the gender ratio seems to be close to 1:1 )).”
Yes, there was nothing much on the other front, except a few hints about Pennae. Over the years, one self-censors to give the publisher more of what they want with fewer battles. When I wrote about being able to hint and show more than ever before, I meant that I pretty much had free reign to shape my own tale, so that I could tell the story of Florin’s sojourn with a certain spoiled lady noble when in the past it would have been vetoed flatly EVEN IF MADE CLEAR HE DIDN’T “TOUCH” HER, on the grounds that “readers and their parents will ASSUME that’s what was happening, so we just can’t ‘go there.’”
My non-Realms fantasies aren’t greatly concerned with matters sexual, but try (via a public library, to save your coins unless you really do like them) my Falconfar trilogy from Solaris or Niflheim books from Tor. Those two series begin with DARK LORD and DARK WARRIOR RISING, respectively. The first is the story of a real-world fantasy writer plunged into a fantasy world he THOUGHT he created, and the second is a dark elf story (not the spider-goddess-worshipping drow of D&D, but how I would have handled evil subterranean dark elves if Gary Gygax had never developed the drow the way he did). Only two books in each series have been published thus far, and it’s made fairly clear that an entire race has a lesbian culture in the Falconfar setting, whereas among the dark elves, homosexual norms depend on one’s faith and profession (priestesses of a certain deity, “nobles” of a certain status), and it’s individual preferences outside those groups. Weber writes superb militaristic sf, and not work-for-hire where editorial decisions are binding.
“I didn't think you were calling for more sex scenes. To be honest, that wouldn't bother me at all (and I'd be quite happy to see more, but I know the audience that the novels are aimed at, and understand why it would be inappropriate). What I am bothered by is the implication that homosexual relationships are only defined by the sex that occurs within them (and that usually means only anal intercourse, because obviously lesbians are about as real as the Easter Bunny). You might not have meant it, but it is there. It's actually a common assertion by the anti-gay lobby, which is why the unfortunate implication touched a nerve.
I am also rather puzzled by the last bit there - you could only show their inclinations by turning them into shallower characters? How does that work? (Keeping in mind that I've never asked for confirmation, simply representation (not caring if the character is homosexual, bisexual, heteroflexible, transgender, or intersex).)”
I was saying those who object to depictions of homosexuals at all only define homosexuals by sex acts (not by affection, stable family or romantic relationships), but include kissing and hugging and even tender speech as “sex acts” (as opposed to demonstrations of affection, love, or friendship), so they can’t see two guys hugging as anything BUT two gay males. I remember once hugging my (male) childhood best friend, whom I hadn’t seen for two decades but literally bumped into at an airport, and having a Customs official snap, “Oh! Go get a ROOM, guys!” because she somehow couldn’t conceive of two guys hugging because they were FRIENDS. If I give in to such thinking, inevitably I dumb my characters down to that level. :{
In my 2004 post, which was in reply to queries posed by someone else, I wasn’t speaking of representation, only of confirmation - - and how it just wasn’t possible under the limitations (if you’re not allowed to “tell,” you must “show,” and if every character is multidimensional and may well have sexual relationships with other characters of both genders, then a repeated “showing” of sex acts with only one gender would be the only way left for confirmation).
“Tricked? *takes a deep breath and thinks things through this time*
Well, we are never sure about people's sexuality, why should we expect to be sure in a novel. On the other hand, Dumbledore was gay. We only found out because J K Rowlings said so after all the novels had been published. We had some hints given, but they only made sense in hindsight (much like the subtext about the relationship between Yanseldara and Vaerana in The Veiled Dragon only became apparent after the publication of the FRCS for 3rd Ed). Most people just assume "heterosexual until proven otherwise", which is why this is so very tricky.
For example, you've told us Myrmeen Lhal is bisexual. But if we were to go only from her appearances in novels and short stories, we would certainly conclude that she was heterosexual. While the fact that she is bisexual means we have representation, it's representation in the closet. No one who doesn't post to this forum and/or read your replies on this very subject would know, they would assume (and reasonably so) that she was straight.
There really has to be a better way, don't you think?”
Yes, I VERY MUCH agree that there has to be a better way.
I also agree re. Myrmeen Lhal, though in my “When Shadows Come Seeking A Throne” short story I hinted very strongly (it got toned down). So, yes, it is representation in the closet. Which is preferable to most publishers because they can get maximum sales by NOT offending the anti-gays, and still get sales from the gays who “know the truth.”
Yes, most people do indeed just assume "heterosexual until proven otherwise", but that’s the way of the world, not something any one person can change.
When I wrote “tricked,” I did NOT mean exclusively or even primarily in any sexual sense. I meant in the more general sense of avoiding deux ex machina situations and other writing creations where the writer essentially lies to the reader about story basics, and the reader is left feeling cheated when the deception is revealed (e.g. the murder mystery in which at the very end, the narrator character says, “Oh, I’m the killer. You didn’t realize that because I’ve been lying to you in what I told you of the killing, all along”). In short, fling the book across the room and cuss out the writer situations.
I know that having homosexual characters present and identified as such in the Realms, and depicted as people and not “crazy” or “freaks,” is very important to you and many other readers.
For years (until he died of natural causes) I corresponded with a (male) fan who was convinced I was gay, or must be but didn’t know it yet, because of the way I wrote about male characters (in non-Realms, non-fantasy writing I did in the 1970s and 1980s). I come from a background of the Swinging Sixties, where “doing your own thing” and society accepting that was the desired goal, so most gays and lesbians, crossdressers and trannies-in-transition (the surgery was expensive and hard to arrange, so a changeover could take years) just wanted to be accepted as “neighbors and just plain folks” and did NOT want to be labeled or called out and made an example of - - and didn’t want to have to fight for rights; they wanted those rights to be freely given because they wanted society to agree with their thinking.
In short, they were hoping for a situation where sexual orientation didn’t MATTER to society in general. That’s the thinking that unconsciously guides me; to step out of that view I have to consciously think about things.
Zandilar, I hope I’ve finally explained “where I’m coming from” better.
love to EVERYONE,
Ed
So saith Ed. Who has family visiting, but will try to get some more Realmslore replies to me before he has to drop everything and start the long drive down to GenCon.
love to all,
THO |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2009 : 23:01:35
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I still wonder what would happen if you would just put in a novel a situation where two males (or females) are simply mentioned to be 'lovers'. I still can't fathom people being so narrowminded as to cut such a reference.
Gomez |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 01:00:57
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quote:
Originally posted by gomez
I still wonder what would happen if you would just put in a novel a situation where two males (or females) are simply mentioned to be 'lovers'. I still can't fathom people being so narrowminded as to cut such a reference.
Gomez
In the US, some people are that narrow-minded. My step-sister would wig out about that simple a reference. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Aug 2009 01:01:59 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 01:14:24
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| Heck, you go down to Atlanta, GA and there's people FIGHTING to have Harry Potter (for witchcraft) and Pokemon (for evolution) BANNED outright! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 01:25:50
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Heck, you go down to Atlanta, GA and there's people FIGHTING to have Harry Potter (for witchcraft) and Pokemon (for evolution) BANNED outright!
Oh, don't get me started... *mutters* |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 01:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
". . . a little too risqué for Candlekeep"?
Sage, IS there such a thing?
We may, of course, have to readily resort to euphemisms for certain pungent and commonly-known words, good old Anglo-Saxon and otherwise, but I'm sure the question itself can be posed and discussed.
The Realms is, after all, an imaginary world, and therefore anything said about is by definition theoretical in nature.
We can even use perfectly innocent (well, to a computer, if not to our minds with their well-developed imaginations) words, like "Peter" for the male naughty bit, "Bubbles" for feminine upperworks, "Velvet" for feminine lowerworks, "Warmcoin" for prostitution, and so on. See? Easy? I'll be happy to provide any demonstrations deemed necessary, and . . .
Just turn off the smoke alarms before we begin, will you? THERE'S a good boy.
Oooh, and THERE'S a good boy, too, I see.
See? Easy!
love,
THO
Actually, my lady, you've brought another question to my mind with respect to this post.
Realms-based euphemisms. What more can you tell us about the common examples of euphemisms used in the Realms? And in what types of subjects will they often find the most use?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Aug 2009 01:49:25 |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 09:25:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One:
". . . a little too risqué for Candlekeep"?
Sage, IS there such a thing?
We may, of course, have to readily resort to euphemisms for certain pungent and commonly-known words, good old Anglo-Saxon and otherwise, but I'm sure the question itself can be posed and discussed.
The Realms is, after all, an imaginary world, and therefore anything said about is by definition theoretical in nature.
We can even use perfectly innocent (well, to a computer, if not to our minds with their well-developed imaginations) words, like "Peter" for the male naughty bit, "Bubbles" for feminine upperworks, "Velvet" for feminine lowerworks, "Warmcoin" for prostitution, and so on. See? Easy? I'll be happy to provide any demonstrations deemed necessary, and . . .
Just turn off the smoke alarms before we begin, will you? THERE'S a good boy.
Oooh, and THERE'S a good boy, too, I see.
See? Easy!
love,
THO
I feel the need to quote Terry Pratchett, in that case:
Mind you, the Elizabethans had so many words for the female genitals that it is quite hard to speak a sentence of modern English without inadvertently mentioning at least three of them.
And I see the Sage has asked my question first. I was going to ask it because in Discworld, the owner of a 'festhall' was named Mrs. Palm, and her 'girls' were called her daughters. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
Edited by - Menelvagor on 06 Aug 2009 12:11:54 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 13:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
I feel the need to quote Terry Pratchett, in that case:
Mind you, the Elizabethans had so many words for the female genitals that it is quite hard to speak a sentence of modern English without inadvertently mentioning at least three of them.
And I see the Sage has asked my question first. I was going to ask it because in Discworld, the owner of a 'festhall' was named Mrs. Palm, and her 'girls' were called her daughters.
Folklore of Discworld is a worthwhile purchase for this kinda stuff. Terry spends some time identifying noteworthy Discworld-based euphemisms. Most of which I've happily borrowed for my Realms.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 15:41:12
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Didn't Ed give us lots of euphemisms, in earlier years of this thread? (Various words for female breasts, etc.)
Or am I misremembering from what he said in one of his seminars? I remember talking to Mr. Peter Archer, who at the time was head of the Books Department, and he said Ed had provided files for authors to use that had swearwords, curse-euphemisms, "naughty bit" euphemisms, diseases, names of wines, and so on. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 16:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
Didn't Ed give us lots of euphemisms, in earlier years of this thread? (Various words for female breasts, etc.)
Or am I misremembering from what he said in one of his seminars? I remember talking to Mr. Peter Archer, who at the time was head of the Books Department, and he said Ed had provided files for authors to use that had swearwords, curse-euphemisms, "naughty bit" euphemisms, diseases, names of wines, and so on.
Indeed. However, any language has lots more euphemisms than just the ones covering profanity, naughty bits, and various sex acts.
I recently explained some euphemisms to my wife the other day, to help her understand the jokes in a particular show -- she'd never heard of some of them. And it was that that made me realize that while we know Realms words for various anatomical bits, we know very few of the euphemisms for doing stuff with those bits, whether alone, in pairs, or in larger groups.
And then there's always euphemisms and odd phrases that come into play for other acts, too, acts that have nothing to do with naughty bits or profanity. Kicking someone's butt, for example, rarely involves the forcible application of the foot to the backside of another. And there is certainly no physical contact in jumping down someone's throat... "Naughty bits" is itself a euphemism, an all-encompassing phrase that we don't have a Realms equivalent of.
So this is yet another area where we simply don't know enough about the Realms, despite knowing a little. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Aug 2009 16:27:02 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 17:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
Didn't Ed give us lots of euphemisms, in earlier years of this thread? (Various words for female breasts, etc.)
Aye. But Ed also indicated, during those earlier discussions, that he had more to cover at some point in the future. And given the Lady Hooded One's earlier post about them, I thought this would be a good time to ask about any other euphemisms Ed could share with us.
Besides, as I see it, euphemisms, in and of themselves, are one of the richer areas to explore when thinking about language in the Realms. I think some of the dialogue in Ed's "Knights of Myth Drannor" trilogy can be taken as an example of that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Aug 2009 17:06:51 |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 17:16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
Didn't Ed give us lots of euphemisms, in earlier years of this thread? (Various words for female breasts, etc.)
Aye. But Ed also indicated, during those earlier discussions, that he had more to cover at some point in the future. And given the Lady Hooded One's earlier post about them, I thought this would be a good time to ask about any other euphemisms Ed could share with us.
Besides, as I see it, euphemisms, in and of themselves, are one of the richer areas to explore when thinking about language in the Realms. I think some of the dialogue in Ed's "Knights of Myth Drannor" trilogy can be taken as an example of that.
Indeed...and I would imagine that they are regional as well...as a real world example...if you are anywhere west of the Mississippi the word "you'uns" would just get you strange looks, but in the South Eastern U.S. 80% of the people would know what you mean.
So in the Common tongue used in the Dales the euphemisms used there may be quite different then what is used in Waterdeep. |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2009)
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