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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 04:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I come bearing two things: a question for the scribes, and a very short reply from Ed to The Sage re. the Spin A Yarn.
First, the question: anyone have a ticket yet for the Spin A Yarn? Do we know what room it's going to be held in, precisely? Or the "D&D World of the Forgotten Realms" seminar? I probably won't be able to make it to GenCon at all, this year, but if there's a chance, I'd LOVE to be able to give Ed a grin from a doorway . . .
Dear Lady, I do, in fact, have these things, and can share such truths, both for Your Hooded Grace and the general fair-attending public:
"Spin a Yarn with Ed Greenwood" will be held on Friday, August 14, at 2 pm, in the Marriott's Indianapolis Ballroom G.
"The D&D World of the Forgotten Realms" will be held immediately following that seminar, at 4 pm, in the same room. If we're lucky, they'll let someone bring Ed a glass of water (and, ahem, a bucket).
At 6, the Dragonlance crowd comes in, and so we must all scatter.
Good gaming, all, and see you there (those who can make it)!
BC
[p.s. Let's not turn this into a 'sorry I can't make it to GenCon' discussion, please. There are other threads for that. I'm just passing along the relevant information...] |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 04:35:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
PLUS those suggestions Kuje sent me from the Keep.
love to all,
THO
I forgot that I had those last year. Grin. Uh, I'm willing to give Ed another list if anyone wants me to deliver it to him. :) But that would be better to take to another scroll. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 01 Aug 2009 04:36:03 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 04:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
... and a very short reply from Ed to The Sage re. the Spin A Yarn.
My thanks Ed.
And I know we're talking about a "Spin A Yarn" tale, but 'twas nice to see Volo back in action again, and in the post-Spellplague Realms.
Though, my mind, of course, will continue to wonder about how Volo spent the time between 1375 DR and 1479 DR. 
I just hope this isn't the last we'll hear from him.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 05:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
At 6, the Dragonlance crowd comes in, and so we must all scatter.
Just be sure to check your possessions after leaving. What with the kender and all.  |
"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 08:48:19
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I do indeed still feel this way, and here's why: in "my" Realms, pre-adoption as a game setting, men could hug or kiss men and women could hug or kiss women without any sexual meaning behind it.
These were expressions of love, familial or friendship or kin or gratitude and expressions of great joy in a success shared, yes, but "confirmations" of overall sexual orientation, no. There were also flirts and effeminate characters, particularly among decadent nobles, and many bisexual characters (please remember, we're speaking of my original fictional Realms, not the published GAME setting).
All of which means to "confirm" a sexual orientation, protracted sex scenes are necessary.
*splutters in incoherent rage*
This isn't the first time I've had a wallbanger moment over this, but it is the first time I've had a wallbanger moment from Ed.
NO, you don't need a protracted sex scene to confirm an orientation!!! A sex scene doesn't necessarily confirm a person's orientation, anyway - for example, a bisexual man having sex with another man is bisexual, but anyone looking at it without knowing the first man is bisexual is going to think he's gay. So no, a protracted sex scene is not going to give any more indication of a person's sexuality than a friendly hug is.
HOWEVER, as a lesbian/bisexual (sue me, it's fluid but mostly lesbian) female myself I do know how you can have gay people in books... Simply allow them to be involved in a romantic (not necessarily erotic) relationship (with a person of the same gender), or have them mention their attraction to someone of the same gender in passing (people, regardless of their sexuality, mention their attractions all the time, without thinking about it ("oh, he's cute" "gods she's gorgeous" "I'd hit that" etc etc))! It might not be confirmation of their sexuality (because bisexuals can love either gender, and that's not taking into account people who either exist between the genders or are transexuals), but it is inclusion and it makes it clear they're not heterosexual and that no one sees anything overly wrong with it in the Realms.
Romantic relationships on the page don't always have to incorporate explicit sex. Heterosexual relationships abound in the Realms novels, and none of those have required an intimate look into their bedrooms (though even there there's plenty of fade to black moments!). So why is it required to show a gay, lesbian, or bisexual in a relationship? For the love of Sune! We love just like straight people do, for crying out loud. I'm so sick to death of this view point, it's what's sticking in the collective craw of the LGBT community... The vast majority of straight people refuse to treat our relationships as seriously as their own. They think that our relationships are all about sex - but they're not. They are every bit as complicated and fulfilling as a heterosexual relationship. Is there sex? Yes. But there's also that deeply fulfilling feeling of completion - all the little intimacies that we all take for granted, from holding hands, to affectionate little pecks on the cheek, to arguing, and to making up again. To a desire for children, to a need for simple companionship. How do you write a homosexual/bisexual in a relationship? Just like you'd write a heterosexual in a relationship. No sex required.
I've had enough, I have. I'm sorry, this got on my last nerve and if this was a little bit ranty, it's because I'm so so so so so tired of it.
Honestly, I expected better of you Ed. I really did.
ETA: Now, having read the REST of the reply, I sort of see where you're coming from Ed. However, not everyone's the Shadowsil, and there are plenty of people with less fantastic lives that we can see on the page and who could be involved with a person of the same sex at the time. No we don't know if they're bisexual, homosexual, or simply heteroflexible and experimenting, but it's still representation of non strictly heterosexuals. Representation matters.
ETA2: I keep thinking of other things I want to say. This dancing around homosexual relationships (not to mention the nearly invsible bisexuals and transsexuals) has made me a little unsure of my own writing recently. I want to write a blatantly lesbian main character and have her involved in a romantic non-erotic relationship with another woman, but from what you've just written Ed, I get the impression that I'd have to look for a niche publisher just to get someone to even look at it, because even implying a sexual attraction between two people of the same gender seems to equate to explicit sex. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 01 Aug 2009 08:59:07 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 17:50:38
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Bingo, Zandilar. After the rage, at the end of your post (ETA2), you "got it."
Ed wasn't speaking of the Realms as he wants it to be, or the published Realms as he wants it to be, but of the realities of publishing. Note that when speaking of the sex scenes, he used the word "protracted," NOT "explicit." Ed makes his living by writing, and chooses his words carefully: he meant not long, detailed sex scenes, but the ability to show a reader repeated sex scenes to underscore a sexual inclination (because, just as you say in the example you gave of the bisexual male making love with another guy, a single sexual encounter can be so readily misinterpreted).
To reiterate for all: in that 2004 comment, so recently elucidated upon here, Ed was trying to make it clear that the Realms is not a simple series of black-and-white situations or characters, so a hint or a glimpse of a possibly sexual act (a hug or a kiss) DOESN'T CONFIRM anything. It's just that: a hint, that can be interpeted in various ways. And that most modern publishers, in this day and age, prefer hints and ambiguities to flat, bald, definite statements, if they're not publishing explicit sex novels (and Realms books aren't explicit sex novels).
Zandilar's strong reaction is a perfect illustration of WHY hints and ambiguities are preferred: publishers are interested in sales, not losing sales. Ed was merely underscoring that because Realms books aren't primarily about sex, making flat statements (either as the author playing narrator, or out of the mouths of characters) about sexual orientation is out of place, and seeing a sex act or possible sex act doesn't "confirm" anything about characters.
To most Realms novel plots, the sexual orientations of characters don't matter all that much (relationships do, kinship does, and legal unions can), because those aren't the sort of stories that the publisher is interested in publishing.
So what Ed was saying isn't far at all from what you're saying, Zandilar. He's just pointing out that within the existing publishing limitations, it's very hard to specify sexual orientation, and warning all readers that you can assume things about characters from what is written, but concluding definite things about those characters can be very tricky.
For one thing, well-written characters grow and develop (read: CHANGE) over time.
Ed happens to agree with you entirely, Zandilar, about how character relationships should be portrayed in fiction (when you post: "Simply allow them to be involved in a romantic (not necessarily erotic) relationship (with a person of the same gender), or have them mention their attraction to someone of the same gender in passing . . . it is inclusion and it makes it clear they're not heterosexual and that no one sees anything overly wrong with it in the Realms . . . Romantic relationships on the page don't always have to incorporate explicit sex").
Ed does just that, when editors let him get away with it. He was simply warning all readers that, saying, having two guys (or gals) kiss doesn't NECESSARILY mean they're gay or lesbian, and that it's unlikely a reader will ever get "certainty" within the restrictions existing re. published Realms fiction.
Ed is not saying anyone has to, or would want to, "confirm" sexual orientation for a character. He's merely underscoring that it is difficult to do so, in print, for Realms characters, because that's not the (forgive me) "thrust" of what publishing Realms fiction is about.
The problem with topics like this is that people interpret the way they want to interpret, or that their own experience leads them to interpret. Reading Ed's posts, I think Zandilar misinterpreted Ed completely, and was enraged at him for something he actually didn't say. I can tell, you, from years of being involved in North American publishing, that sexual matters and their portrayal is ALWAYS a concern for publishers, and generally for the same basic reason: pleasing the maximum number of buying patrons, and displeasing the minimum number. It works both ways, from the sort of Christian publisher who doesn't even want kissing before marriage (and doesn't want to even acknowledge the existence of anything besides male-female relationships) to the porn publisher who worries that a book isn't "juicy explicit" enough, and that buyers might feel "ripped off" that they didn't get the "real goods." (Yes, those are actual quotes from an editorial comment I once read, of a porn manuscript - - and NO, it wasn't Ed's).
Ed's argument here really boils down to:
My world and the characters who form the core of it aren't simple and one-dimensional, so assume whatever you like about them, but concluding definite things about them can be very mistaken. When it comes to sexual orientation, the limits on Realms publication make "definites" hard to convey, so be warned, and view characters accordingly.
That's not something I see reasonable people disagreeing much with. Unfortunately, because sex happens to be involved, people tend to react to what they think is said. Which is one of the reasons Ed tends to avoid most such discussions; he just doesn't want to upset anyone - - so let people believe what they want to believe, for their own version of the Realms, and leave what need not be made explicit unsaid. Ed is NOT advocating lots of explicit sex scenes (though like all writers, he'd like the maximum freedom possible, so he could do one if he thought it would improve the story - - ask him some time about the farce he wrote involving two prominent Realms characters and a quite explicit sexual encounter between them that gets comically interrupted every few panting breaths by the arrival of someone [else] with a pressing problem).
Zandilar, you'll probably be interested to know that Ed has derived wry, resigned amusement over the years from such things as TSR changing character genders because "Well, he wrote that these two live and sleep together, not just work together, so one of them HAS to be female. Guys don't sleep with guys." and the female vice versa, too. I know that as a player in Ed's campaign, I've been amused more than once at character portrayals in the published Realms, and turned to Ed and asked, "Umm, do they know that X is really gentle, effeminate, and bisexual? Because what I'm reading is Macho City, here!"
After initial head-butts with various editors, Ed retreated early on to just shaking his head and "letting it go." Because of, yes, those same publishing realities you allude to in your ETA2 addendum.
So saith me.  Because I've done more publishing work than Ed has. (He, of course, has done a lot more writing and design work than me.)
love,
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 17:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Zandilar, you'll probably be interested to know that Ed has derived wry, resigned amusement over the years from such things as TSR changing character genders because "Well, he wrote that these two live and sleep together, not just work together, so one of them HAS to be female. Guys don't sleep with guys." and the female vice versa, too. I know that as a player in Ed's campaign, I've been amused more than once at character portrayals in the published Realms, and turned to Ed and asked, "Umm, do they know that X is really gentle, effeminate, and bisexual? Because what I'm reading is Macho City, here!"
Now that's interesting... Can you or Ed speak of some of the characters who changed gender? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 18:08:10
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Whew. Have the guns stopped firing, yet? Safe to raise my head enough to comment? 
Seriously, I have to agree with THO here. I read Ed's reply pretty much as she put it, not as a dismissal of any sexual orientations or a need for lots of explicit sex scenes.
Zandilar, as someone active in publishing right now, take it from me: you can send your MS to any publisher, but I suspect that most of them would reject it (they might not be honest with you as to why; saying "it doesn't meet our needs at this time" is always safer) if they aren't a niche lesbian publisher.
The exception is: if the story you're telling is strong and compelling enough, they won't care if the main character is "blatantly lesbian." But some editor, at some point in the process, will almost certainly gently approach you with some variant of : "We really don't see why the main character has to be lesbian, because it doesn't seem to be germane to the story." (meaning: please remove this sexual element)
If you object, saying it's crucial/the root of the story, the response will be some sort of VERY vaguely worded variant of: "but she doesn't show her lesbianship. It's non-erotic, so it's not really part of the story. If you had some really hot sex scenes, on the other hand-"
Of course, if you then put them in, they'll (very probably) then reject the story because of them, or want them toned down or taken out, leaving you feel like your chain has been repeatedly jerked.
That's just the realities of the way publishers behave, in these Politically Correct times. I think that's part of what Ed was saying: without the sex scenes, sexual orientation doesn't matter or can be passed off as trendy "I kissed a girl and I liked it" doesn't-really-matter sizzle, not steak - - or will be edited out as needlessly harmful to sales. If you put the sex in, it'll possibly hurt sales and therefore cause some publishers to back away - - and as you and Ed both know, a few sex scenes does not a lesbian, gay, or bisexual make.
Looking back over the published Realms, I think Ed (with his editors) has done a masterful job of hinting without being blatant, and inclusion without upsetting those who'll be upset by inclusion. It's subtle because, as Ed said, he can't state anything bluntly.
There. My two coppers.
Feel free to decry the state of publishing, everyone, but the line for complaining is already a long, long one . . .  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 18:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Zandilar, you'll probably be interested to know that Ed has derived wry, resigned amusement over the years from such things as TSR changing character genders because "Well, he wrote that these two live and sleep together, not just work together, so one of them HAS to be female. Guys don't sleep with guys." and the female vice versa, too. I know that as a player in Ed's campaign, I've been amused more than once at character portrayals in the published Realms, and turned to Ed and asked, "Umm, do they know that X is really gentle, effeminate, and bisexual? Because what I'm reading is Macho City, here!"
Now that's interesting... Can you or Ed speak of some of the characters who changed gender?
I'd like to add a question of my own to this as well, for either Ed or the Lady Hooded One.
I'm curious about the reactions and/or opinions of other NPCs towards characters who've changed gender? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 18:15:16
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Dear Ed and THO,
I don't want to add to the controversy of these last few sexual orientation posts, but reading them did make me want to ask a Realmslore question: we know that young nobles tend to rebel against authority, their parents, and so on like all other teenagers, and that they tend to have the money and leisure to do it a bit more than, saying, working-class youth.
So if young noble lords and ladies become sexually adventurous, and flirt, flaunt possible gay or lesbian behavior or experimentation, and - - albeit with parental disapproval, often - - get away with it . . . how do "wannabe-noble" wealthy parents regard THEIR teenaged children trying to do the same sort of thing? How does the rest of Suzail regard them? I.e. do the Watch roll their eyes and grumble at "buckheaded noble lordlings,' but get tough with non-noble wealthy youths trying to emulate those same lordlings?
Thanks in advance for anything you want to say. Or not say.
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 18:19:15
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Yes, easy there, Zandilar! Ed's one of the GOOD guys, remember?
Speaking of which, I seem to remember that Ed was writing something for a charity cause, but can't find any mention of it in the usual channels.
Ed, THO, care to enlighten me? |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 20:59:12
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quote:
Originally poste by The Hooded One:
ask him some time about the farce he wrote involving two prominent Realms characters and a quite explicit sexual encounter between them that gets comically interrupted every few panting breaths by the arrival of someone [else] with a pressing problem
'Some time' has been changed to 'now'. In other words, I'm asking the question that needs to be asked.
I'll just put in one comment: I feel that acceptance is the way. Yes, I'm a religious (Modern) Orthdox Jew, and yes, that means that I don't think I'll ever engage in this. It also means that I would disapprove if my mother/sister/daughter/father/son engage in this relationsip - but not because I hate it, but because I feel that they knew what they were doing when they accepted this (religious) lifestyle, and if they want to do it, they shouldn't lie to themselves about it. I'm not saying they should abandon God and religion - but don't call yourselves 'Religious Modern Orthdox Jews' when you're doing something forbidden by that group.
Personally, I don't have any objection to orientation. I feel that I can't force people to accept my view, and I shouldn't - if they want to join my religion and forbid it on themselves, they can, but I won't make them if they don't want to.
Same for content. If there's an actual scene, I won't read it - I'm not married yet, so I'm not ready. But I won't say they shouldn't exist because they're 'corrupting' or some such blather.
EDIT: Oops. Rereading my post, I've just realized how long my 'one comment' was. I apologize, though I own't delete it because I feel a religious PoV may be useful. But if one of the mods feels the need to, do. I apologize again, and move the thread beck to questions for Ed. |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions – just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
"Let's not call it 'hijacking'. Let's call it 'Thread Drift'." |
Edited by - Menelvagor on 01 Aug 2009 21:01:12 |
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 21:21:34
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Put me down with those who don't think any apologies are necessary, Menelvagor. A board, a thread, and a site are always better when people feel comfortable enough to express themselves fairly freely.
And reading over Page 88, I don't see anyone going "over the line" on rudeness. Being passionate, yes, but that should never be something to apologize for. I find it refreshing to find in Ed's thread a generally high level of friendly cordiality, debate, and explanations, lore and otherwise. For selfish reading enjoyment reasons, if nothing else, I'd like it to stay that way.
So, Ed, are the two characters Piergeiron and his champion? Or Mirt and Durnan? (Just to start the tongues wagging.)
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 23:53:29
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Oh, Gavel, you DIDN'T!!!
You did. 
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2009 : 23:57:31
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Hi again, all.
Blueblade, Ed wants you to know he's definitely "in" on that book idea of yours. It's very similar to pitches he's made to Wizards in the past, that haven't progressed very far, so please don't hold out a lot of hope, but he WILL suggest it at GenCon to one Wizards editor he knows will be attending.
We'll just have to wait and see . . .
Although "jam" books have an all-too-frequent tendency to collapse into parody, in-jokes, and authors deliberately "getting at" each other (see some of The Detection Club releases), I would buy and read such a book in a proverbial shot.
love,
THO |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 00:01:17
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I wasn't thinking along those lines. I was thinking Khelban and Laeral, or Elminster and the Simbul, myself.  And I have to say, if it was Khelban and Laeral (and I were Khelban), I'd create an extra dimensional space just to guarantee I was left alone with her. 
*looks around*
What? |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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Aysen
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 08:00:51
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Hmm, here I am ready to ask Ed another lore question and I can't help but comment first on the interesting tangents floating in this thread.
1.) If we're all throwing in guesses on Ed's farcical "coitus they keep barging in to interruptus" here's mine:
Azoun/Tessaril
Mourngrym/Shaerl
Alusair/Caladnei
Alustriel/ ?
2.) On visibility of LGBT relationships in published Realms fiction, I was pleasantly surprised that a few same-sex pairings were seen in the latest novel, Erik Scott de Bie's Downshadow. One minor occurrence happened in a brothel and was a purely physical-expression/camera-pans-elsewhere kind of thing, and the other involved an important character in the book and a deeper emotional connection. I'm glad the editor(s) left them both in. I don't think either one would have made it past the editing phase if this were several years earlier.
And to get back to my question for Ed:
3.) I'm re-reading the novel Stormlight and while I'm sure a few more questions will be forthcoming, here's my first bundled one:
Early on in the book, a Cormyrean country noble and heir to his family's name dies and is cremated. They take his ashes and put them in a bowl, tie it to the saddle of his horse, and let the horse run free, thus scattering his ashes out amongst the countryside.
Is this a common practice amongst country nobles in Cormyr and elsewhere? Is there a specific term for such a ritual, like "last-ride"? Did the noble's status as family heir or the fact that he had military training factor in? What about the fact that the family patronized Chauntea (a Chauntean officiated the cremation and burial)?
Thanks Ed! |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 10:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So saith Ed. Whom I will drop my drawers for, AND wave a banana peel at, I promise. Perhaps in the same deft movement . . .
So where's the banana then?
Gomez,
who has some ideas for the next Spin-A-Yarn.
I can also confirm that I got a ticket. Not sure if you *need* a ticket, but I got myself one.
We should smack your boss for not letting you come...
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Edited by - gomez on 02 Aug 2009 10:48:45 |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 11:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zandilar
Simply allow them to be involved in a romantic (not necessarily erotic) relationship (with a person of the same gender), or have them mention their attraction to someone of the same gender in passing
I agree with Zandilar. If, say, people would ask Yellira Am’benuinyl what her relation was with Breeandra Nenthyn (who died some time ago, and whose duties Yellira took over), she might say 'We were lovers'. No sex need be shown or mentioned - a plain simple statement on how people relate. Of course, people do not ask such things easily or often, but there are moments were it has a place.
Also, you can show a loving relatioship between two people, especially over the course of a book.
It is harder in adventures (I am, obviously, not a novelist), where you don't often need to expose relationships and doing so may be seen as an 'agenda'.
But several NPCs in my adventures are (or I perceive them that way). Yellira is a lesbian (Breeandra was bisexual, but as I see it her love for Yellira was real.) Kira and Dayan, the twins, are bisexual, and very relaxed and comfortable with their own sexuality (though Kira has her own specific little issues). Despite that, when it was needed, I still choose to pair Dayan with a woman, partially because it worked better for a future story (hard to explain that without spoilers), and partially because, as a random flirt, making it a man would have been a bit tacky.
So I understand Ed in the trouble in having to stay within certain boundaries as set by WotC, but also feel that we should not hesitate too much in showing that love is universal and that gender is really optional.
Gomez |
Edited by - gomez on 02 Aug 2009 11:23:21 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 14:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
He did say he's REALLY having fun with this new novel, and that it is a Realms book.
love to all,
THO
Nice...I look forward to reading it. When ever it is released. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 15:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Aysen
Azoun/Tessaril
Mourngrym/Shaerl
Alusair/Caladnei
Alustriel/ ?
Hmmmm... That brings up an interesting thought. Was Tessaril one of the characters that had a gender change? Her backstory from Haunted Halls makes it appear likely... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 16:27:15
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No arguments with your "we should not hesitate," gomez, but that isn't what Ed SAID. He said - - which Zandilar seemed to miss entirely - - that readers should not be taking confirmation about a particular character's inclination from the brief sort of coverages that the Realms novel format allows.
As Zandilar herself said, you can misinterpret a single male-on-male scene as gay rather than bisexual. I think Ed was making it clear that his characters not only change over their lives, they experiment, and that hugs and kisses in the Realms need not tell us anything about gender preferences at all.
This seems to be twisting into some sort of complaint about not putting gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. characters into Realms novels, or Ed's failing in being able to portray them without what he called "protracted" sex scenes.
However, scribes, that just ain't what he said. Read the words in his post!
Ed said he can't CONFIRM a sexual orientation from anything less (being as editors have in the past not let him make bald statements in print about a character's orientation), and that readers are free to interpret however they'd like, but they can't "confirm" from what is allowed to be shown either, and may later get a surprise or two if they do.
Now (ahem) I have a Realmslore question that doesn't have anything to do with gender. I hope.
I want to ask about pots and pans, and where they are made in numbers (are there any factories, anywhere? or is it all individual artisans, at the "family business assembly line" level? If so, are they predominately dwarves and gnomes, or - - ?
Also, in the areas (if any) where pots and pans are produced in bulk, are they cheaper than in large trading cities? (I know they'll be more expensive out on the frontier.)
Thanks!
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2009 : 20:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
Ed said he can't CONFIRM a sexual orientation from anything less
And my particular disagreement is with that statement (though, to be specific, I care less about the sexual orientation of a specific individual than the nature of specific relationships). Yes, sexual or tender activities or scenes are only moments, and can be attributed to friendship, good-natured fun or hedonism as much as love. But the nature of a relationship can, in my opinion, be made clear. I do not think WotC is that narrow minded that they would at every occasion cut a statement on their nature.
I do think it should fit a story, but if, say, two men in a story are lovers, it does not take too many words to make that clear (in fact only one: the word 'lover').
Note that in my own adventure writing, I did this exactly once, in a RPGA adventure (set in Greyhawk), where I defined the relationship between a countess and her female advisor (since that relationship explained why the advisor, despite conflicting loyalties, was still trusted).
I am sure Ed has met with some resistances - I suspect novels are screened a bit more thoroughly than RPGA adventures, and I may very well underestimate the small-mindedness of editors - but I do think there are means other than repeated sex scenes to say something about the nature of a relationship.
I'd be happy to discuss the (im)possiblities with Ed at GenCon, over a beer :)
Gomez,
Possibly being incredibly naive.
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 01:27:02
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
No arguments with your "we should not hesitate," gomez, but that isn't what Ed SAID. He said - - which Zandilar seemed to miss entirely - - that readers should not be taking confirmation about a particular character's inclination from the brief sort of coverages that the Realms novel format allows.
There's a whole lot of misunderstanding going around, I think. As I said in my second edit, I understand where he was coming from on the whole "we can't confirm a character's orientation..." Yes, it's very very difficult. You can't tell if a person is straight just because they currently happen to be in an opposite sex relationship. This is true, it's as true in Real Life as it is in a novel or a game. In fact, sexuality is quite a bit more fluid than most people give it credit for. But that's another story for another time.
However, what I vehemently disagree with is the idea that in order to make a character's sexuality clear, a writer must include protracted sex scenes. A female character who is shown to be romantically involved with another woman (with no actual sex scenes on the page), who expresses her attraction for other women in passing, while showing no interest in men, and who later actually rejects advances from a man, is clearly meant to be a lesbian. You don't need to show her having sex over and over again with women - any more than you'd need to show a heterosexual woman having sex over and over again with men. There is still room for said character to be bisexual, but it's quite unlikely.
We don't need confirmation. Confirmation is not possible in any context, honestly. You can show a person having sex with a particular gender over and over again, and they still might surprise us. What we do need is representation. Because that matters a whole lot more to people than you'd think. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 03 Aug 2009 01:29:24 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 02:16:30
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Hi again, all. I bring this reply from Ed, to Zandilar's post above:
Then I don't think we have any disagreement here at all.
I'm sorry if my words upset you, Zandilar. I DO agree we need representation, and lots of it - - so that it becomes "matter of fact" calmly accepted as part of the setting.
My reply was specifically about confirmation, and the inability to do that under the limitations placed on me (before and during 2004, not so much now) in Realms fiction - - unless I limited myself to one-dimensional characters. And to one-dimensional behaviors (i.e. that kissing and hugging are always a prelude to sex or a signal that the characters involved are in a sexual relationship).
I could not have gleeful dwarves hug each other (because, according to one editor, that meant they were in a sexual relationship [to which I could only reply, "Huh?]). I could NOT have anyone clearly and baldly say they were "lovers" with anyone else (I know - - I tried!), though I could sneak close to such a statement by having an angry noble accuse someone of being so-and-so's "lover," or have some known-to-be-rude-and-crude character like Torm or Mirt allude to such status, and even have "known crazies" like Elminster or The Simbul (yes, "known crazies" was how one editor described them) utter "lovers" or "they're together" or some such - - but I couldn't have either a narrator or an "average polite" character say any such thing. The old (TSR days) Code of Ethics even specifically prohibited mention or inference of homosexuality.
The limitations have changed over time, yes, but so have the sort of stories I'm telling, so I stand by my reply re. my opinion about confirmation.
Please note that I never said that confirmation was necessary or desirable; I happen, as a writer, to always want the "elbow room" that ambiguities leave for later plot twists.
And as you know, I can signal like crazy. The ongoing problem has been the tendency for editorial hands, especially in the older days, to take happy, ongoing female-female pairings and male-male pairings and change the genders of some of the participants to shift them to male-female.
And as my Realms writing is work-for-hire and as "we're not in the business of telling Realms stories that are ABOUT sex" (to quote a long-gone editor), fights over those changes were lost causes.
Too-deep adult content (such as those very "protracted sex scenes" I mentioned) are still "off the table" these days, because those are still not the sort of stories Realms novels are supposed to be concerned with. Yet the Knights trilogy in particular allowed me to hint and calmly state and show more than ever before (except in the "hothouse" books SILVERFALL and ELMINSTER IN HELL). Those who've read my fantasy novels set outside the Realms know that I can and do get more specific, when the tale heads in that direction.
So the reply of mine that you reacted to was not a "call for more sex scenes" or my opinion about my own inability to describe sexual inclination in any other way than repeated same-gender or opposite-gender sex scenes - - it was my opinion that within the "window of opportunity" that Realms writing allowed me, readers could only be sure of a character's inclination if I limited myself to very clear-cut, simplified characters.
I did not and do not think that a reader should necessarily be "sure" of anything in a Realms novel, so long as they don't feel cheated by a writer who makes belief-shattering changes and plot twists that repeatedly rob scenes the reader has enjoyed of the meaning the reader though they had. (No one likes being tricked.)
So I think we're on the same page. If the way in which I wrote that reply upset you, I'm sorry about that, because I'm not in the business of upsetting people, in life, unless it really can't be avoided. And this CAN be avoided.
You're always welcome at my table, Zandilar. (Tea?)
Hugs,
Ed
So saith Ed. Who is a kindly and understanding man, one of life's "nice guys." Really.
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 02:30:07
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Hi again, all.
gomez, Ed is currently wrestling with a truly hairy GenCon schedule, but if he can, he'll be happy to chat over a beer with you.
And he sent me a Realmslore reply, too, this one to Aysen, re. this: "Early on in the book, a Cormyrean country noble and heir to his family's name dies and is cremated. They take his ashes and put them in a bowl, tie it to the saddle of his horse, and let the horse run free, thus scattering his ashes out amongst the countryside.
Is this a common practice amongst country nobles in Cormyr and elsewhere? Is there a specific term for such a ritual, like "last-ride"? Did the noble's status as family heir or the fact that he had military training factor in? What about the fact that the family patronized Chauntea (a Chauntean officiated the cremation and burial)?"
Ed replies:
This is an old "upland" (rural) Cormyrean practice, also seen in the Dales and Sembia in elder days (not so much in the 1300s), known as a "grave ride" or "last ride." His nobility was a factor, yes, because the only families who did this were those who owned large tracts of land (enough for a "scattering from the saddle" to be worthwhile), but not the fact that he specifically was the heir, nor his military service or rank. Last rides were generally only done by families who felt close ties to the land (farmers [there's the Chauntea connection, in this specific case], hunters, foresters, and strong worshippers of nature gods like Silvanus and Eldath), and wanted their lost ones "returned to the land."
[[Remember, in the Realms everyone "believes in" and worships ALL of the gods, though most people feel "closest" to a handful of deities. Only clergy and a relatively few "devout lay worshippers" devote themselves primarily to a single deity.]]
In Cormyr, everyone knows what a "grave ride" or "last ride" is, and everyone sees it as "doing right by the dead" and "pleasing to the gods." That doesn't mean it's a frequent custom among most citizens, not even among nobles (who tend to prefer the family crypt with intact bodies laid to rest in it).
So saith Ed, who will get to your other questions posed in the same post later on, Aysen. He's really busy right now (the first draft of the book is on Chapter 18, I believe, but of course Ed can't let anyone see it, or say too much about it), but will send me Realmslore replies to post as he can.
love to all,
THO |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 07:59:30
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Ahhh... Insomnia has gotten a hold of me and I've been trying to tire myself out by searching the scrolls for information on NPCs of Candlekeep. On the brigh side, I am tired enough to go to sleep. However, my searches have not found any information on personages of our fair 'keep.
Specifically, could you provide us with some details on the Gatewarden, the Chanter, the Guide and some of the Great Readers? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 08:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Ahhh... Insomnia has gotten a hold of me and I've been trying to tire myself out by searching the scrolls for information on NPCs of Candlekeep. On the brigh side, I am tired enough to go to sleep. However, my searches have not found any information on personages of our fair 'keep.
Specifically, could you provide us with some details on the Gatewarden, the Chanter, the Guide and some of the Great Readers?
Ashe, in case you weren't already aware, you may wish to read Ed Greenwood's Introduction to Candlekeep, written especially for us herein, and which features some details on the various positions and personalities of Candlekeep. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 11:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I could NOT have anyone clearly and baldly say they were "lovers" with anyone else
That is pretty sad. I makes me wonder what century those editors were from. I really hope that changed now.
Gomez,
who agrees that sexual orientation is not something you can really confirm since it is pretty fluid. I mean, with some NPCs, you can't even be sure of gender ;) |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2009 : 12:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
My reply was specifically about confirmation, and the inability to do that under the limitations placed on me (before and during 2004, not so much now) in Realms fiction -
So what changed for the better after 2004, and why did it change? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
Edited by - khorne on 03 Aug 2009 12:30:12 |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2009)
Topic Locked
