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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 17:43:54
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| The way I've played, there never was much upkeep for animal companions. I could see it being different for familiars, but wolves and the like can scrounge for their own food. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 17:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
The way I've played, there never was much upkeep for animal companions. I could see it being different for familiars, but wolves and the like can scrounge for their own food.
-I used the quotations because I didn't mean literal care (my DM also has similar views on things), but the...things that come with having Animal Companions/Familiars. Them being hurt in combat...Having to figure out what to do with them when in a city (if they are not "city animals", or some other place to that effect, and just having to generally keep in mind what they are doing, and what they can be used for. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 22:01:46
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| No dwarven wizards is a rule I enforced from 2e through 3rd and 3.5e editions. I mentioned this on the official WotC forums, along with a couple of other odds & ends old race restrictions when 3e came out, as house for my campaign and caught a lot of flak from other forum users... saying I was restricting character concepts and how dare I hamper player creativity. I understand what they were saying, but its not like I was forcing them to adopt my house rules. Besides, so what if I was restricting players' creativity and concepts? What about my own concept of a campaign world maintaining some semblance of continuity. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 20:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, I'll also note that there were [although very rare] instances of dwarven wizards in 2e. Behring was one, a 3rd-level Wizard, Male Dwarf, CN, and who lives in Daggerford. 'Tis one of the rare dwarves who can wield magic, The North: Daggerford.
Also, I don't know if this counts, but I'm reading through the novel The Stowaway, and there is a dwarf character who appears to be an actual mage (user of the arcane arts). The novel itself is new, but the story takes place around the time of The Halfling's Gem.
It might not be canon, but the PC in Baldur's Gate is approached by a character who is explicitly stated to be a dwarven wizard. This character warns the PC that an evil man is watching him/her, and if the PC is nice to the dwarf he gives you a gift in hopes that it might someday protect you (a scroll of anti-magic, btw).
In my Realms, there were always some dwarves who could use (or should that be, wanted to use?) magic, they were just few and far inbetween. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Dec 2008 20:29:10 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 21:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, I'll also note that there were [although very rare] instances of dwarven wizards in 2e. Behring was one, a 3rd-level Wizard, Male Dwarf, CN, and who lives in Daggerford. 'Tis one of the rare dwarves who can wield magic, The North: Daggerford.
Also, I don't know if this counts, but I'm reading through the novel The Stowaway, and there is a dwarf character who appears to be an actual mage (user of the arcane arts). The novel itself is new, but the story takes place around the time of The Halfling's Gem.
It might not be canon, but the PC in Baldur's Gate is approached by a character who is explicitly stated to be a dwarven wizard. This character warns the PC that an evil man is watching him/her, and if the PC is nice to the dwarf he gives you a gift in hopes that it might someday protect you (a scroll of anti-magic, btw).
In my Realms, there were always some dwarves who could use (or should that be, wanted to use?) magic, they were just few and far inbetween.
I had a similar thing in my FR...but Dwarven Wizards were exceptionally rare and something nearly legendary and mostly unheard of. Instead of the Dwarves in my FR needing to be wizards to craft magical items, I ruled instead that they could take the Craft Magic Item feats for things like Armor, Weapons, and etc.; but not one shot items like scrolls and potions or anything like that unless they were a cleric.
I had always thought that the reason a Dwarf had such resistance to magic, was actually because they were a naturally magical race that had such resistance because the magic in them shed off most other magics trying to affect them. This same internal magic is what enabled King Mort of Tethyamar's father, a Fighter, to make such magical items as the King's Axe of Dragonslaying and such.
It worked really well in our campaign, and made it easier for me to explain away things like King Battlehammer being able to craft something like Aegis-Fang! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 21:21:31
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| I seem to be in the minority here, but I actually liked when they opened up the class availability more. I always hated and didn't understand why I couldn't play an elven druid in 2E, so I was overjoyed when it was allowed in 3E. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 21:25:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I seem to be in the minority here, but I actually liked when they opened up the class availability more. I always hated and didn't understand why I couldn't play an elven druid in 2E, so I was overjoyed when it was allowed in 3E.
You really aren't in a minority, I like the idea of Elves being Druids too...it only made sense.
Certain things didn't though...like Dwarves casting fireballs and such! LOL
In fact, Elves COULD be druids in 1st Edition AD&D. Page 7 of the Unearthed Arcana states that ALL subraces of elves (except Drow) could be Druids; so that wasn't something new. It was just something taken away in 2nd Edition for unknown reasons...sort of like the Assassin Class.
Kinda funny actually how 2nd Edition was an attempt to "remake" something that many already liked...and now 4th Edition is doing the same... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 21:37:21
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| If we (and by we, I mean they) do not learn from the mistakes of the past, then we (and by we, I still mean they) are bound to repeat them. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 23:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Additionally, I'll also note that there were [although very rare] instances of dwarven wizards in 2e. Behring was one, a 3rd-level Wizard, Male Dwarf, CN, and who lives in Daggerford. 'Tis one of the rare dwarves who can wield magic, The North: Daggerford.
Also, I don't know if this counts, but I'm reading through the novel The Stowaway, and there is a dwarf character who appears to be an actual mage (user of the arcane arts). The novel itself is new, but the story takes place around the time of The Halfling's Gem.
Interesting.
I doubt I'll be reading that novel, but it's worthwhile information to add to the Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ under the subject of "dwarven wizards."
Thanks Rinonalyrna.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2008 : 02:21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I seem to be in the minority here, but I actually liked when they opened up the class availability more. I always hated and didn't understand why I couldn't play an elven druid in 2E, so I was overjoyed when it was allowed in 3E.
Oh, I liked that the availability was opened up... I just want an in-game explanation for why it opened up. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2008 : 07:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I seem to be in the minority here, but I actually liked when they opened up the class availability more. I always hated and didn't understand why I couldn't play an elven druid in 2E, so I was overjoyed when it was allowed in 3E.
-Though I never played anything but 3e, I agree. I never liked the concept that certain races couldn't be certain things- with the exception of Dwarves not being "traditional" Wizards. That one, I lik(ed). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2008 : 13:42:28
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| Wizards I can see for dwarves. The patience and diligence needed for studying to attain power is something I can see a dwarf committing to. Sorcerers, however, I can see restricting to rare cases (Thunder Blessings, etc.). |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2008 : 17:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-What was the explanation that Dwarves couldn't be magicians, anyway? They were resistant to magic, or something to that effect? I might use that in my own setting, hmm...
To quote the 1st Edition AD&D Player's Handbook: "Because of their very nature, dwarves are non-magical and do not ever use magical spells."
To quote the 2nd Edition AD&D Player's Handbook: "By nature, dwarves are nonmagical and never use magical spells (priest spells are allowed however)."
To quote Dwarves Deep: "Elminster . . . knows of no dwarven wizards, and believes the inherent magic resistance of 'trueblood' dwarves makes their mastery of wizardry impossible."
In AD&D, that nature also translated to a bonus of +1 per 3.5 points of Constitution on saves vs. spell and against rod/staff/wand, which in 3.x was turned into a flat +2 to save vs. spells and spell-like effects. In 1st Edition, magical rings had a 20% chance of malfunctioning (not working) for dwarves; in 2nd edition, "All magical items that are not specifically suited to the character's class have a 20% chance to malfunction when used by a dwarf." |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 18:25:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Interesting.
I doubt I'll be reading that novel, but it's worthwhile information to add to the Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ under the subject of "dwarven wizards."
Thanks Rinonalyrna.
You're welcome.
By the way, I would like to mention that the book is quite short (less than 300 pages), and in addition to that the print is very large. If you are a fast reader you could probably whip through it fast, and it might be worth the read.
PS: In addition that, I should point out that the story is quite readable. It's a basic coming of age tale (with all the usual trappings that tend to go with such stories), so it's nothing new, but it's not painfully bad either. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 22 Dec 2008 18:27:50 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 18:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I seem to be in the minority here, but I actually liked when they opened up the class availability more. I always hated and didn't understand why I couldn't play an elven druid in 2E, so I was overjoyed when it was allowed in 3E.
Actually, I'm kinda with you. I thought some of the class/racial restrictions were a bit odd myself. I don't one can ultimately play what one wants (If the DM allows it), but still... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 18:55:26
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| The druid is a specific social role that occurred in human societies to manage the threshold between the human and the plant and animal worlds. It would be bizarre if other races created the exact same role, and in the Realms we know they didn't. |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Dec 2008 18:58:07 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 20:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The druid is a specific social role that occurred in human societies to manage the threshold between the human and the plant and animal worlds. It would be bizarre if other races created the exact same role, and in the Realms we know they didn't.
I understand what you are saying, but I think of druids as more generally being guardians of nature. That role would be important to any society, especially in a world of multiple dominant races, because some races may be less nature-friendly than others. Also, it isn't an FR book, but Races of the Wild details the different community roles in an elven community and one of them is the Guardian of Nature. The existance of this position would imply that even elves sometimes need guidance to stay in harmony with nature. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 22:12:13
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Back when 3e came out, I argued that by opening up the classes the designers were freeing up DMs to give their game worlds a unique flavor by restricting (or not restricting) the classes accoding to their esthetic preferences.
Honestly, I don't think the designers needed to come up with an in-game explanation for the changes. The best solution was to let individual DMs handle the explanation in their own way. The whole problem with the ToT (and now the Spellplague) is that you had a massive RSE imposed on the DMs just to explain the creation of a new edition. I greatly appreciated that they didn't do that to us with the advent of 3e.
Mouse, I second what you said about the old 2e kit books. I sold mine off when I made the switch, and I was glad to see them go. Now we have PrCs coming out of our eyeballs. It's always the same thing. The money is in selling books.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 22:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The druid is a specific social role that occurred in human societies to manage the threshold between the human and the plant and animal worlds. It would be bizarre if other races created the exact same role, and in the Realms we know they didn't.
I would have to disagree with it being bizarre for other races to create a similar role. It would be little different than the other classes that each and every race "created" to take a position in their society.
Without being sarcastic, it would be like saying only Dwarves should be Fighters, Elves should only be Rangers, Humans are only allowed Paladins or Halflings are only allowed to be a thief.
Classes, in general, are only (to me) a broad template that allows each race to partake in particular sets of abilities. Thus, you may not have many Gold Elf Druids, but Wild and Wood Elf Druids make a very great deal of sense to me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2008 : 23:51:06
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-I think a lot of the "problem"- I don't personally see it, or believe it, but I can see where others might- stems from the use of the terms. Druids are/were Celtic nature priests/priestess'. Paladins were specific knights who served Charlemagne. As such, Elves can never be Druids, as they are not Celtic nature priests/priestess'. They can never be Paladins, since they never were knights who served Charlemagne. They can be nature priests/priestess', and/or "holy" knights, however.
-Like I said, I don't like looking at the issue in "black and white", but I can see how some can, and do. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 01:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I understand what you are saying, but I think of druids as more generally being guardians of nature.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would have to disagree with it being bizarre for other races to create a similar role.
The druid, as published, isn't a general 'guardian of nature', though, but a detailed class with a specific background, powers, name, level titles, and position in Realmslore. You can indeed reinterpret classes as broad templates and propose that elves created a role that was similar enough to use the same class. I'd rather honour Gary's original intent for the class system and the druid class in particular, dodge the credibility problems of duplicating the human druid so closely, and avoid messing with one of my favourite areas of Realmslore.
For instance, the early settlement of the Dales would have been different if there'd been druids on both sides instead of the druidic circles playing a unique role on the human side of racial interaction in the Dragonreach lands.quote:
Without being sarcastic, it would be like saying only Dwarves should be Fighters, Elves should only be Rangers, Humans are only allowed Paladins or Halflings are only allowed to be a thief.
The detailed, culturally specific ranger and paladin subclasses are indeed unique to humankind in traditional D&D and the Realms. The fighter and thief are much more general, and are intended to apply to any culture with (a) fighting and (b) cities and goods to steal or dungeons to delve. |
Edited by - Faraer on 23 Dec 2008 02:26:39 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 02:39:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I understand what you are saying, but I think of druids as more generally being guardians of nature.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I would have to disagree with it being bizarre for other races to create a similar role.
The druid, as published, isn't a general 'guardian of nature', though, but a detailed class with a specific background, powers, name, level titles, and position in Realmslore. You can indeed reinterpret classes as broad templates and propose that elves created a role that was similar enough to use the same class. I'd rather honour Gary's original intent for the class system and the druid class in particular, dodge the credibility problems of duplicating the human druid so closely, and avoid messing with one of my favourite areas of Realmslore.
For instance, the early settlement of the Dales would have been quite different if there'd been druids on both sides instead of the druidic circles playing a unique role on the human side of racial interaction in the Dragonreach lands.quote:
Without being sarcastic, it would be like saying only Dwarves should be Fighters, Elves should only be Rangers, Humans are only allowed Paladins or Halflings are only allowed to be a thief.
The detailed, culturally specific ranger and paladin subclasses are indeed unique to humankind in traditional D&D and the Realms. The fighter and thief are much more general, and are intended to apply to any culture with (a) fighting and (b) cities and goods to steal.
I can see your opinion clearly, but it was actually Gary Gygax that created the Unearthed Arcana wherein Elves are allowed to be Druids.
It is also my understanding that the humans dealing with the Elves of Cormanthor were aided by druids in negotiations with Moon Elves...so again, I can understand Moon Elves having no Druids perhaps; but such as Wild and Wood Elves would most certainly be more inclined to have Druids...
I understand the Lore of the Forgotten Realms...but simply because there is not well established Lore concerning elves being Druids, it does not mean there never were druids.
As for Paladins, the early Franks had Paladin guards...and they were a very brutal Barbarian People who simply took well to education when they occupied Gaul. The Paladin is simply intended to be a Knight of high virtue...using a term doesn't mean a literal connection with a real world counterpart...otherwise Paladins would be barbaric bodyguards of Barbarian Warlords and Chieftains. The same could be said of any particular title given a class in D&D.
Speaking of titles...the Ranger (as published in 1e D&D) could also be an Elf...of any subrace but Wild elves ( !). As the ranger stood, I understood this simply because the Ranger used Magic User Spells...but the class was somewhat strange in general to me with its hodge-podge assortment of abilities. And beyond that, the Assassin pretty much became a class anyone could have!
What I'm trying to say is that any class can be justified for nearly any race...what I feel you are trying to say is that in the Forgotten Realms there are certain races that should only be certain classes based on the Lore.
While I perfectly see your argument, I am only saying that just because lore does not exist supporting something...as long as it isn't blatantly contrary to established lore it should be possible somewhere...
That is what the Realms are for me is an endless tapestry of possible things... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 03:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF
Honestly, I don't think the designers needed to come up with an in-game explanation for the changes. The best solution was to let individual DMs handle the explanation in their own way. The whole problem with the ToT (and now the Spellplague) is that you had a massive RSE imposed on the DMs just to explain the creation of a new edition. I greatly appreciated that they didn't do that to us with the advent of 3e.
Wait... You're saying that when a published setting is changed by its designers, and previously impossible things are now not only allowed but utterly unremarkable, that it doesn't need an explanation from those who made the change?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 04:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I think a lot of the "problem"- I don't personally see it, or believe it, but I can see where others might- stems from the use of the terms. Druids are/were Celtic nature priests/priestess'. Paladins were specific knights who served Charlemagne. As such, Elves can never be Druids, as they are not Celtic nature priests/priestess'. They can never be Paladins, since they never were knights who served Charlemagne. They can be nature priests/priestess', and/or "holy" knights, however.
-Like I said, I don't like looking at the issue in "black and white", but I can see how some can, and do.
I have a hard time seriously considering using the historical basis of certain classes belonging to certain cultures because, while FR is clearly based off of real-world history, it doesn't match it identically. And there are no elves, dwarves, etc. in the real world, so restricting a class simply because it originated in one particular real-world culture doesn't make sense to me. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 04:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I have a hard time seriously considering using the historical basis of certain classes belonging to certain cultures because, while FR is clearly based off of real-world history, it doesn't match it identically. And there are no elves, dwarves, etc. in the real world, so restricting a class simply because it originated in one particular real-world culture doesn't make sense to me.
-I agree. I'm just explaining how I think I interpreted what was going on. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 04:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
I have a hard time seriously considering using the historical basis of certain classes belonging to certain cultures because, while FR is clearly based off of real-world history, it doesn't match it identically. And there are no elves, dwarves, etc. in the real world, so restricting a class simply because it originated in one particular real-world culture doesn't make sense to me.
-I agree. I'm just explaining how I think I interpreted what was going on.
I didn't mean it as an attack on you, I just wanted to explain how I felt about the statement because it is one I've heard before and I disagree with it. I understood that you weren't expressing that opinion. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2008 : 07:17:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wait... You're saying that when a published setting is changed by its designers, and previously impossible things are now not only allowed but utterly unremarkable, that it doesn't need an explanation from those who made the change?
Yeah. That pretty much sums up my point. Continuity in these matters is highly overrated. What matters is storytelling, and enjoying the game. If the DM needs an explanation, though, he can surely supply one from his fertile imagination. The one he comes up with will be better for him and his players, because it was designed to fit his campaign.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Rules and History?
