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Dusty
Acolyte
6 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:10:04
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This is a weird question, but are there any connections between the rules and the history of Toril? Or, did the same thing that happened on the time border of 2nd/3rd[or 3rd/4th] edition cause the rule changes between 2nd/3rd[or 3rd/4th]?
Although my memory of what happened between 2nd and 3rd is fuzzy, I know that the Spellplague/etc. is supposed to justify the rules differences between 3rd and 4th editions. I can't remember what the split between 2nd and 3rd was, though. I thought it was the Time of Troubles, after which the new Mystra would allow divine 8th level spells, but that complicates Baldur's Gate II...
If this is just me taking this question way too seriously, or if I'm drawing weird conclusions based off strange 4th edition retcon, "I'm sorry!  " is what'd I say.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Dusty
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Of course. There has certainly been lore written into the setting to explain how D&D rule changes "take ground" in the Forgotten Realms.
Ah, thanks. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:44:32
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They didn't give any explanation for the changes to the setting caused by the 3E rules. They had plenty of opportunity; when I first read about the (then) forthcoming novel The Summoning, I assumed that the return of Shade was going to be used to explain the changes. But they never even touched on the rule changes... About the only thing that was ever explained was how dwarves became more common -- but the Thunder Blessing could have also explained how the previously non-magical dwarves suddenly had spellcasting abilities. So even where there was a possibility for explaining things, they never bothered.
The flip from 1E to 2E was, rule-wise, relatively minor. But we got an in-setting explanation for the changes. The 2E to 3E flip changed a hell of a lot more things, and none of it was ever explained. I regard this as being the point where the importance of continuity started falling by the wayside. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 00:09:48
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| I think the lack of explanation for rules change from 2e to 3e made for a significant factor in making such a huge change in the Realms to account for the 3.x to 4e change... what with all the complaining over the change in cosmology with no rational explanation beyond "this is the way its always been" regardless of what was written before. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 03:35:28
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I was always annoyed at the Thunder Blessing being used to explain an increase in arcane magic use among dwarves. It's not within Moradin's control, or those of his allies, to grant arcane power to dwarves, since the portfolio of magic explicitly belongs to a different dwarven deity.
Laduguer.
Thus, the logical reason for the lack of dwarves who mastered magic was the hostility of Laduguer to those who refused to honor him. Dwarves who wanted to become wizards or tap the power of sorcery accordingly would have to make at prayers and offerings to him, or he would eventually take notice and act to stop them from exercising arcane power. With that limitation, a dwarf displaying arcane powers in public would be, effectively, announcing their worship of a deity that Moradin had exiled. The usual reaction of the other dwarves of the clan would be to exile the mages. So the number of dwarven users of arcane magic would be small, and split between the secretive and the exiled.
Moradin could, of course, see that the result of this approach left dwarves at a disadvantage, and then eventually unbend enough to make overtures to Laduguer, telling his priests to set forth that (well-behaved) mages and worship of Laduguer (within lawful limits) was to be tolerated. Of course, Laduguer would probably have insisted on the Thunder Blessing being extended to the gray dwarves as well, in that case. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 04:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by see
I was always annoyed at the Thunder Blessing being used to explain an increase in arcane magic use among dwarves. It's not within Moradin's control, or those of his allies, to grant arcane power to dwarves, since the portfolio of magic explicitly belongs to a different dwarven deity.
So far as I know, dwarven magic use has never been officially explained... But I think that the Thunder Blessing could be used for that.
And it has been implied that the dwarven deities were behind the dwarven inability to use arcane magic... The old "Dwarven Myth" article, which appeared on the WotC site back in early 2000 (IIRC), made it out to be that way. Though the article remains on the site, there are no links to it. However, someone did help me find it... And here it is:
quote:
The Scrolls and the Dwarves/ The Denial of Mystryl
It is said that when the elves stole the nether scrolls and secreted them away from the Netherese they came through the halls of Tethyamar and were aided in their travel by the dwarves. There they stayed a short while and agreed to show the High Priest of Dumathoin in the nation the scrolls. There was great anticipation by the dwarves and they gathered before the High Throne and their King to witness these artifacts which had given the Netherese such tremendous powers. When the elven prince who had commanded the forces into Netheril brought forth the nether scrolls and laid them out before the King and High Priest there was a great silence. Then, to the elves, the dwarves all appeared to strain forward to look with perplexed expressions on their faces. Then there was a whispering and unsettled rustling in that gathering.
It was a brave soul in that great cavern audience who suddenly broke out in a laugh. And much to the elves confusion and annoyance suddenly all the dwarves were laughing. The King stood up from his throne and there was quick silence and he spoke, "What nonsense is this? You're juggling thin air here before me and my kin. Come now, show us the scrolls that shake the foundation of the world - enough of this posturing."
And the elven prince held out his hands towards the scolls upon the stone dais, "But here they are Great King...". There was another great silence. The King's eyes flashed and it seemed he was about to speak angrily when the High Priest of Dumathoin spoke quietly into his ear behind him. Though the King did not speak loudly his voice carried when he replied to his priest "We are Denied?" and all did not mistake the nod of the priest's head and long beard.
The King turned to the elves then and with a curt dismissal sent them from his kingdom.
Thus it is said the dwarves were never meant to see the scrolls and the gods of the dwarves forever guard their eyes from fathoming that which is the nether scrolls.
Grant W.L. Christie
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Dec 2008 04:16:45 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 08:35:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So far as I know, dwarven magic use has never been officially explained... But I think that the Thunder Blessing could be used for that.
From the 3e FRCS (p.10):
quote:
The thunder children share little of the fear and distrust of arcane magic possessed by their ancestors. Most dwarves still feel more comfortable wielding an axe instead of a wand, but many thunder children, particularly the twins, study wizardry or the sorcerer's arts.
So, there's an explicit canon link between the Thunder Blessing and arcane magic use among dwarves. And Laduguer was still the dwarven god of magic; it says so on p.239 of the 3e FRCS, no retcon from 2e. Logically, as the dwarven god of magic, the arcane magic use aspect of the Thunder Blessing would have required his acquiescence.
But, we then find out (p. 11):
quote:
They [the gray dwarves] seem to have been denied the Thunder Blessing.
So, Laduguer went ahead and let Moradin reforge the souls of the dwarves to include arcane magic use . . . even though Moradin refused to extend the Thunder Blessing to Laduguer's chosen people? Or is it that despite being the dwarven god of magic, Laduguer can't actually influence magic use among dwarves enough to stop Moradin?
I can make arguments for either, but that it happened at all annoyed (heck, still annoys) me. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 09:23:21
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Honestly, I never experienced much of a change when AD&D became 3E. Obviously, people who care about some special field of interest will feel agrieved if ... say the cosmology was shaped somewhat differently or some geographical features were moved, but in general the whole flair and depths of the Realms were left untouched and nigh any pre-3E FR source could be used story- and flair-wise in 3E too. I - for example - never saw the Times of Troubles as something needed to explain the ascendance of AD&D.
The 4E apocalypse is in stark contrast to this though. It essentially cuts off all the old Realms from what is written now, rules and story alike - leaving you with the name Forgotten Realms (and some hangers on) and not much more to identify with. IMHO.
As for the dwarves ... doesn't Dwarves Deep feature anything like this? Thunder Twins - look-alike abilities et al? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 09:48:39
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| well ... Ammarindar was noted as an arcane dwarven kingdom below graypeak mountains ... though Dwarves Deep somewhat disargee with itself about weather it was seen as a strong or weak kingdom ... as far as i remember the story was that the dwarves learned magic from the neighboring elven kingdom to defend themselves from Netheril |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
515 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 14:44:59
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If my memory serves me right the Times of Trouble occurred between 1E and 2E. And it was used to account for certain changes. Changes in magic as well as some changes in classes, I think assassins were removed and was accounted for by one of the gods sucking away their lives to power him.
And then between 2E and 3E there was a non-realms event that shook the planes. Some don't acknowledge it but the module Die Vecna Die! served as a reason for the planes to get all shook up. But most the changes to 3E were minor effecting the daily adventures of a player infrequently. I haven't even bothered to look into 4E. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 16:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So far as I know, dwarven magic use has never been officially explained... But I think that the Thunder Blessing could be used for that.
From the 3e FRCS (p.10):
quote:
The thunder children share little of the fear and distrust of arcane magic possessed by their ancestors. Most dwarves still feel more comfortable wielding an axe instead of a wand, but many thunder children, particularly the twins, study wizardry or the sorcerer's arts.
So, there's an explicit canon link between the Thunder Blessing and arcane magic use among dwarves. And Laduguer was still the dwarven god of magic; it says so on p.239 of the 3e FRCS, no retcon from 2e. Logically, as the dwarven god of magic, the arcane magic use aspect of the Thunder Blessing would have required his acquiescence.
Ah, but here's the rub, and it's why I don't think the Thunder Blessing was an explanation: in 2E, dwarves could not be wizards. It was, in the PHB, a class that was specifically and explicitly prohibited. And dwarves had trouble using magic devices -- if it wasn't specifically keyed to their class, there was a chance it would fail when they used it. This was part of the rules. All of these quotes come directly from the dwarven racial description of the 2E PHB (it's an rtf file, so I don't have page numbers):
quote:
A character of the dwarven race can be a cleric, a fighter, or a thief. He can also choose to be a fighter/cleric or fighter/thief.
quote:
By nature, dwarves are nonmagical and never use magical spells (priest spells are allowed however). This gives a bonus to dwarves' saving throws against attacks from magical wands, staves, rods, and spells. This bonus is +1 for every 3 - ½ points of Constitution score.
quote:
Also because of their nonmagical nature, however, dwarves have trouble using magical items. All magical items that are not specifically suited to the character's class have a 20% chance to malfunction when used by a dwarf.
All that was thrown out the window with 3E. And there was no explanation. Losing a distrust of magic is one thing -- losing the inability to use it is quite another story altogether. It's the failure to explain the sudden access to previously unavailable abilities that I'm looking at. The Thunder Blessing could have been used to explain that, but it wasn't -- all the Thunder Blessing did was increase the dwarven birth rate. It's not even implied that it had other effects. The fear and distrust bit is a cultural change, not a physiological one.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 16:17:12
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This is false and I've seen it said many times over the years. However, that module had nothing to do with the changes, least for FR's planar setup, in 3e.
There was no in game explaination for the changes and you were supposed to believe that the planar setup for 3e was always like that. No game designer has ever come out, least the ones that changed the planar setup in 3e, and said they used Die Vecna Die! as a basis for the change. And yes, I've talked to most of the game designers, over the years, that were involved in the 3e cosmology.
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Some don't acknowledge it but the module Die Vecna Die! served as a reason for the planes to get all shook up.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 16 Dec 2008 21:19:24 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 16:45:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So far as I know, dwarven magic use has never been officially explained... But I think that the Thunder Blessing could be used for that.
From the 3e FRCS (p.10):
quote:
The thunder children share little of the fear and distrust of arcane magic possessed by their ancestors. Most dwarves still feel more comfortable wielding an axe instead of a wand, but many thunder children, particularly the twins, study wizardry or the sorcerer's arts.
So, there's an explicit canon link between the Thunder Blessing and arcane magic use among dwarves. And Laduguer was still the dwarven god of magic; it says so on p.239 of the 3e FRCS, no retcon from 2e. Logically, as the dwarven god of magic, the arcane magic use aspect of the Thunder Blessing would have required his acquiescence.
Ah, but here's the rub, and it's why I don't think the Thunder Blessing was an explanation: in 2E, dwarves could not be wizards. It was, in the PHB, a class that was specifically and explicitly prohibited. And dwarves had trouble using magic devices -- if it wasn't specifically keyed to their class, there was a chance it would fail when they used it. This was part of the rules. All of these quotes come directly from the dwarven racial description of the 2E PHB (it's an rtf file, so I don't have page numbers):
quote:
A character of the dwarven race can be a cleric, a fighter, or a thief. He can also choose to be a fighter/cleric or fighter/thief.
quote:
By nature, dwarves are nonmagical and never use magical spells (priest spells are allowed however). This gives a bonus to dwarves' saving throws against attacks from magical wands, staves, rods, and spells. This bonus is +1 for every 3 - ½ points of Constitution score.
quote:
Also because of their nonmagical nature, however, dwarves have trouble using magical items. All magical items that are not specifically suited to the character's class have a 20% chance to malfunction when used by a dwarf.
All that was thrown out the window with 3E. And there was no explanation. Losing a distrust of magic is one thing -- losing the inability to use it is quite another story altogether. It's the failure to explain the sudden access to previously unavailable abilities that I'm looking at. The Thunder Blessing could have been used to explain that, but it wasn't -- all the Thunder Blessing did was increase the dwarven birth rate. It's not even implied that it had other effects. The fear and distrust bit is a cultural change, not a physiological one.
Although Xothol, the dwarven college of magic in Ammarindar, is listed as being founded almost 2,000 years ago, and that the dwarf wizards of Xothol developed new spells and methods of spell preparation, LEoF pg 87. So this implies that dwarves always had the capability to use arcane magic, at leaast in the Realms. I understand it wasn't a "core" explanation and it came late, but it's something  |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 17:28:23
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Although Xothol, the dwarven college of magic in Ammarindar, is listed as being founded almost 2,000 years ago, and that the dwarf wizards of Xothol developed new spells and methods of spell preparation, LEoF pg 87. So this implies that dwarves always had the capability to use arcane magic, at leaast in the Realms. I understand it wasn't a "core" explanation and it came late, but it's something
But in 2E lore, that dwarven wizard's school couldn't have existed... That's where my objection lies.
That LEoF bit makes it worse: dwarf wizards existed long ago, then they didn't for a long time, and now they do again -- all with no explanation. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 18:53:50
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I know from a novel reader's standpoint (which I exclusively was until about 5 or 6 years ago; just before 3.5 was released and I bought the 3e FRCS, Races of Faerun and the 3.0 PHB and DMG) I made the transition from 2e to 3e with no problems. However, with the internet and all I have learned about the 4e Realms I can't even make myself buy a post-spellplague novel, not matter how good I know the author is (i.e. Steven Schend and Erik Scott de Bie, amongst others).
EDIT: BTW, welcome to the 'Keep, Dusty!  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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Edited by - Hawkins on 16 Dec 2008 18:54:39 |
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Dusty
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 22:09:08
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Hm, this is mildly frustrating. Can't have a Loremaster campaign/story/etc if I don't understand the lore.
I'm getting the feeling that there's really no answer to some of these rule changes other than something like "Ao did it!" I see where all the posters who say they alter/ignore canon material come from now; I should do that, too.
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
EDIT: BTW, welcome to the 'Keep, Dusty!
Hello to you, too!  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 22:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
I'm getting the feeling that there's really no answer to some of these rule changes other than something like "Ao did it!"
Though if it is in the 4e Realms, then the excuse used is "The Spellplague did it!" |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 23:01:15
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Some could consider the Thunder Blessing as a partial explanation for dwarven mages [FRCS p. 10].
I do believe, however, it's in large part because of the ill feeling towards the Time of Troubles that the 3e changes weren't given a matching in-Realms upheaval.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 23:04:57
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Additionally, I'll also note that there were [although very rare] instances of dwarven wizards in 2e. Behring was one, a 3rd-level Wizard, Male Dwarf, CN, and who lives in Daggerford. 'Tis one of the rare dwarves who can wield magic, The North: Daggerford.
Also well, Steven Schend put into The Lost Level adventure an option allowing anyone to become a dwarf and retain their skills. As I recall, that was one of the weirder ways in 2e to allow for dwarven wizards...
The adventure, BTW, is available for free download at WotC:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 23:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This is false and I've seen it said many times over the years. However, that module had nothing to do with the changes, least for FR's planar setup, in 3e.
There was no in game explaination for the changes and you were supposed to believe that the planar setup for 3e was always like that. No game designer has ever come out, least the ones that changed the planar setup in 3e, and said they used Die Vecna Die! as a basis for the change. And yes, I've talked to most of the game designers, over the years, that were involved in the 3e cosmology.
And just to add a little to Kuje's response above...
Gelcur, I suggest you take a look through the Forum Code of Conduct in my sig for a section on "Planar Changes" between editions and up to 3e.
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 23:21:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
If my memory serves me right the Times of Trouble occurred between 1E and 2E. And it was used to account for certain changes. Changes in magic as well as some changes in classes, I think assassins were removed and was accounted for by one of the gods sucking away their lives to power him.
Well, the assassins you refer to are those of Bhaal who indeed killed a large chunk of his worshippers to power himself. Yet, that was not the assassin "class" as such, since assassins were about all over Faerūn in various others faiths and being p/matronized by various deities. The class as such - unless I am mistaken - also made the transition to AD&D in one of the kit books, Complete Thieves Handbook or the like (only own the German version). |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 03:31:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
If my memory serves me right the Times of Trouble occurred between 1E and 2E. And it was used to account for certain changes. Changes in magic as well as some changes in classes, I think assassins were removed and was accounted for by one of the gods sucking away their lives to power him.
Well, the assassins you refer to are those of Bhaal who indeed killed a large chunk of his worshippers to power himself. Yet, that was not the assassin "class" as such, since assassins were about all over Faerūn in various others faiths and being p/matronized by various deities. The class as such - unless I am mistaken - also made the transition to AD&D in one of the kit books, Complete Thieves Handbook or the like (only own the German version).
I thought it was Bane who killed the assassins to power himself before attacking Torm in the novel/adventure "Tantras"??? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 03:54:39
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It was Bane. See pg. 264 of the FRCS.
Re: Bhaal, the death of assassins, and the Time of Troubles...
Not all assassins were killed when Bhaal was weakened. This was the result of a retcon. In the FRCS, on pg. 264, it states that only the assassins that worshiped Bhaal were killed, and thus, not ALL assassins were eradicated during the Time of Troubles.
Additionally, it is important to note that only those characters in the Realms who had the assassin class would've actually died [which means any unstatted characters before this time could have easily survived the event]. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 05:37:28
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| Anyway, yeah, for some things canon explanations were given (most of the 1e-2e changes, most of the 3e-4e changes, some dwarf 2e-3e changes). Some things were not (like the disappearance of the monk class between 1e and 2e, most of the 2e-3e changes), and instead explained with the answers "it was always like this" or "different rules change how things are expressed; the 'reality' of the Realms never actually followed any edition's rules." |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 09:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It was Bane. See pg. 264 of the FRCS.
Re: Bhaal, the death of assassins, and the Time of Troubles...
Not all assassins were killed when Bhaal was weakened. This was the result of a retcon. In the FRCS, on pg. 264, it states that only the assassins that worshiped Bhaal were killed, and thus, not ALL assassins were eradicated during the Time of Troubles.
Additionally, it is important to note that only those characters in the Realms who had the assassin class would've actually died [which means any unstatted characters before this time could have easily survived the event].
Only those Bhaal-worshipping assassins, of course. Neither Bhaal nor Bane had any dominion over those assassins who had other gods as m/patrons. Not that this is really important. (One needs to point out that hardly any AD&D character was actually statted as a CTHB assassin (since designers did not by default expenct any DM to have that book ... back then) but many filled the boots of "assassins" but still were thieves, thieve/mages or fighter/thieves et al. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
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In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 09:53:34
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I'm an old 1rst Ed hand at FR (though to be fair I was playing 1rst Ed just as 2nd Ed came through the door), but the Bhaal dies so assassins die thing always amused me. What's MORE amusing is how it's like some kind of itty-bitty footnote in the history, even in the 3rd Ed FRCS book.
The 3rd Ed change didn't bother me so much. The few cosmology and spell changes toubled me at first, but frankly, for all my love of 2nd Ed, the whole system had at that point become hoplessly convoluted with stuff. The THACO thing always pissed me off anyway. It was hard to get anyone to play 2nd Ed with me because, frankly, it was a pain in the ass to learn the rules. 3rd Ed was at least slightly more accessible.
Eventually 3rd Ed's ridiculus gamut of classes, prestige classes and the like annoyed me to death, but I solved this problem: I just used the DMG ones and Faerun ones alone if I was playing FR. Didn't have to clumsily shoehorn every weird prestige class into the world that way.
4th Ed.....well, I was neutral leaning twords negative on 4th Ed, until I saw what they did to the FR world, vastly simplifying it (the awsome-win backround and history was WHY I liked FR in the first place), and only barely explaining to the rules changes made me to personally forswear 4th Ed. I'm not opposed to others playing it, but it's not condusive to the style I playing I prefer, and the Sword and Sorcery setting of FR really isn't condusive to the new rules.
In Sword and Sorcery and High Fantasy, I don't care HOW good with a sword you are, you are NOT able to shoot FLAMING LASER BEAMS from it at higher levels of skill, unless you happen to be in a Legend of Zelda game with full hearts.
I find it fairly amusing that the the new FR novels taking place post-Spellplauge I've read literally have nothing in common with the rules of 4th Ed. Warrior types display none of the abilites now associated with your 4th Ed tank, and are often still vaugely referred to as their old class archetypes. Drizzt I'm betting is still going to be called a "ranger" as opposed to whatever they're called now. It's like Wizards did one thing with the world to sell more (or less) products, and the writers for the setting and novels decided to keep the updated timeline on orders and just completely ignore everything else.
Also, the Thunder Blessing thing was fine for me. I always figured that dwarves were only slightly less adept with magic, being too stubborn, too narrow minded (not in a bad way), and too forward to really take to magic.
In no part of old Realmslore does it say "Oh, and Mystra hates dwarves so the Weave doesn't work for them, neener neener neener."
I took it to mean the Thunder Blessing children are slightly more mentally.....flexible shall we say (it does mention this in the FRCS) and if there WAS any interference from dwarven deities or Mystra, they had a little chat over whatever passes for dwarven tea (oh wait....its called "beer") and resolved the problem for Thunder Blessing generation dwarves.
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"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
Edited by - Mouse on 17 Dec 2008 10:00:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 13:54:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Mouse
In no part of old Realmslore does it say "Oh, and Mystra hates dwarves so the Weave doesn't work for them, neener neener neener."
It didn't have to say that in Realmslore. It was in the Player's Handbook. And the WotC article I posted does pretty much say that dwarven deities denied magic use to the dwarves. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 15:19:48
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There are plenty of cases where the Realms proper doesn't follow every detail of the ruleset. But in this case, FR11 tells us "Elminster . . . knows of no dwarven wizards, and believes the inherent magic resistance of 'trueblood' dwarves makes their mastery of wizardry impossible."
Of course, as ever, Elminster might be wrong, and the occasional unique dwarven wizard would be fully within the spirit of Realmslore. Instead, Wizards decided that dwarven wizards were henceforth not just possible but common -- thus making your formerly distinctive dwarf mage PC ordinary, and further homogenizing the races. The reasoning for this was never explained. |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 17:17:57
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| And Drizzt never used all of the powers of the 3E ranger class. Guen could be loosely described as an animal companion, but I never thought of her as such, and Drizzt never uses magic, even though he is a high enough level in the ranger class to do so. |
Edited by - ranger_of_the_unicorn_run on 17 Dec 2008 17:18:13 |
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Rules and History?
