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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 13:56:17
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For elves in the realms is there an time beyond which they cannot conceive. Do elven women go through an 'elven menopause' and if so how late in their lives?
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 16:16:33
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Don't think it's ever been discussed, especially during TSR's days since they had a hands off approach to stuff like that due to the Code of Conduct.
I'd go ask Ed. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 17:19:24
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-We don't have an answer, as of yet. However, going by context clues and what not...Menopause is basically nature's way of saying, "Hey, you're too old, and won't be able to properly care for a child". Elves do indeed age, and eventually reach ages where they become old and crusty, and the call to Arvandor becomes too powerful to ignore. So, I would say that a menopause-like thing does indeed happen to female Elves. As to when that would happen, that's not something I am going to venture a guess at. Older, somewhere in that range, but like in the real world, there is no set, exact date.
-Of course, in a world with magic, this really wouldn't mean much? You body shuts down on you earlier than you want? No problem- Here's a potion, and you're all good to go again. And, of course, the opposite is certainly possible- drink the wrong potion, and suddenly you are barren. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 17:50:25
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Going by the 3.5 PHB, Humans reach 'old' age at 53, which I believe is around the RL age for menopause to start setting in. Therefore, menopause should reach the other races at that same juncture:
Dwarf - 188 years
Elf - 263 years
Gnome - 150 years
Half-elf - 93 years
Half-orc - 45 years
Halfling - 75 years
This is all based on 3.5 statistics, mind you. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 17:52:36
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| -I'd say to ignore that, concerning Elves. As we all know, much of the lore concerning the race was created during the 2e era, where age brackets began and ended at different times. The 2e age bracket would be more accurate. As is evidenced in 3e and 4e with seemingly arbitrary things like changing how old the race can grow to, certain details become screwy and lose their meaning. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 17:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-I'd say to ignore that, concerning Elves. As we all know, much of the lore concerning the race was created during the 2e era, where age brackets began and ended at different times. The 2e age bracket would be more accurate. As is evidenced in 3e and 4e with seemingly arbitrary things like changing how old the race can grow to, certain details become screwy and lose their meaning.
Very true. I just wanted to post that if he was looking for a 'rule' on the idea, then the logic of the 3.X information would suggest this. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:19:02
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I ran into this in another thread (which is probaly what Dagnirion is referring to). You would have to base the age of possible conception on the older 2e lore, since MUCH of FR canon is based off of those numbers. Even if the certain lore is retconned, we still need to base related subject-matter off of the original numbers.
Personally, for Elves, I think it would be more a matter of choice. A 900-year-old Elf could have a child, but would she really want one? That would be like a 90-year-old human woman wanting to care for a baby.
I really don't like the idea of applying human biology to demihumans so much, because then they just become 'funny-looking humans'.
I would give Dwarves a similar 'menopause' as humans (so that proportionate to their lifespans they have a MUCH smaller 'window' to bear children). This could also be another aspect changed by the Thunder Blessing.
As for Halflings... I make them out to be rats. 
They probably have 2-3 'litters' in their lifetimes, of 2-3 kids each. Thats just my homebrew take on them, because I like the idea that once you "get Halflings", its hard as hell to get rid of them. 
Also, that makes sense due to their smaller size - I would imagine such small creatures would have a much higher rate of not making it to adulthood (combine curiousity and an almost insane lack of fear with their tiny size).
In their case, I would say they could also bear children for their entire lives, or at least most of them, but then have their lives shortened by each instance of childbirth over two (I have heard dogs who have many litters live shorter lives).
All conjecture, mind you; nothing at all canon. I just figure I'd share my thoughts on the subject. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2008 18:22:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:27:24
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Would an elven menopause last longer than a human one? More importantly -- particularly for elven husbands ( ) -- would the elven menstrual cycle be longer? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:30:31
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Oh... dear god... NO!!!!!! 
And now we know why so many Elven males are wanderers.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh... dear god... NO!!!!!!
And now we know why so many Elven males are wanderers....
And why they seek the comfort of human women. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:31:33
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Perhaps elves--being, y'know, perfect and all--don't menstruate but instead secrete rose water and the like. 
But seriously, being stodgy about bodily functions (as we were under the TSR code) isn't likely to go away anytime soon. So long as the human (or by extension elven) body is "dirty" and "taboo," then we're going to see certain blank spaces in our fantasy (aside from the obligatory potty humor).
Whether you concern yourselves with such details is another matter--some are curious, some aren't. For the time being, one generally has to fill in the blanks oneself, except for the occasional references to bodily functions that some wily authors slip in.
Cheers
P.S. Fun fact: Elven PMSing was basically the joke behind my DoM companion story, "That Time of the Tenday." |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 20:59:07
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Queen Amlauril had something like eleven children. Of course, she was particularly blessed by the gods. And I believe she was having them waaaaay into her winter as an elven woman...AND she lived (lives?) way beyond the normal roll of years for an elf.
I think your best bet is to assume elven women can have kids into their older years the same way modern women do. Of course, I heard a 70 year-old-woman in India just had a baby. So who knows? :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 21:11:42
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-Amlauril's Children (13):
Ilyrana (F)
Xharlion (M)
Zhoron (M)
Chozzaster (M)
Shandalar (F)
Tira'allara (F)
Hhora (F)
Laziar (F)
Gemstarzah (F)
Amnestria (F)
Zandro (M)
Finufaranell (M)
Lamruil (M)
-Let's also not forget, though, as was said: Queen Amlauril is blessed by the Seldarine, and isn't a "normal" Elf. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 15 Dec 2008 21:12:16 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 22:01:36
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Just grabbed some lore from good ol FRCG, pg 132:
"Queen Amlaruil is gone, and the throne stands
empty; Evermeet is currently governed by its Royal
Council."
Of course, whatever "gone" means, I have no clue.
Back on topic:
pg 39 PH: They (eladrin) enjoy youth and health for most
of their lives and dont begin to feel the effects of age
until the middle of their third century. Most live for
over 300 years, and even at the end they suffer few of
the infirmities of old age.
So...I would assume 'enjoy(ing) youth and health' would include remaining fertile.
Wow...they cut the lifespan of the elves quite a bit, didn't they?
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 22:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
"Queen Amlaruil is gone, and the throne stands
empty; Evermeet is currently governed by its Royal
Council."
Of course, whatever "gone" means, I have no clue.
-Yeah, unfortunately, that's nothing new. Or, rather, thankfully, since it's not a major bombshell? I don't know...
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Wow...they cut the lifespan of the elves quite a bit, didn't they?
-Yes, yes they did. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 22:20:01
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| I ignore the 3.x elven lifespan in favor of the older editions. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 22:37:07
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| Earlier I made an argument that as the 3rd ed elven physiology was so tied to magic, it would only follow that there be consequneces for a massive magical catastrophe. Maybe one could see the shortened life span as indicative. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 01:00:59
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| Yeah well, I don't suppose to explain it for oh, Greyhawk. Just Faerun. That's where I likes it and that's where I stays. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 03:47:21
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There is something you're missing here if you look at the elves in a fashion similar to humans. Namely that females are born with their total supply of eggs, even if the elves never go through menopause they would run out eventually. In humans menopause typically arrive before the female would run out of eggs.
Males on the other hand manufacture sperm until old age shuts everything down. Though a man's fertility begins to slip earlier than this as the production of sperm begins to produce "broken" copies that are incapable of fertilizing the egg. And that pretty much wraps up my knowledge on the subject.
Ionik Knight |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 04:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
Namely that females are born with their total supply of eggs, even if the elves never go through menopause they would run out eventually.
-Not necessarily. This would only be the case if Elven women are born with a total supply of eggs that doesn't exceed their possible...rate...to...expel...them.
-I feel dirty now. 
-How 'bout we say Elves are delivered by the stork, and call it a day? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 16 Dec 2008 04:03:59 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 04:37:28
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| I agree. An easily-distracted, angry, overbearing, pointy-eared stork. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 08:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Just grabbed some lore from good ol FRCG, pg 132:
"Queen Amlaruil is gone, and the throne stands
empty; Evermeet is currently governed by its Royal
Council."
Of course, whatever "gone" means, I have no clue.
Back on topic:
pg 39 PH: They (eladrin) enjoy youth and health for most
of their lives and dont begin to feel the effects of age
until the middle of their third century. Most live for
over 300 years, and even at the end they suffer few of
the infirmities of old age.
So...I would assume 'enjoy(ing) youth and health' would include remaining fertile.
Wow...they cut the lifespan of the elves quite a bit, didn't they?
Just a bit over 300 years?! Didn't FR elves use to able to live over 600 years? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 10:49:32
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yep, in 2nd i think it was much longer.
just go with whichever.
anyway, i feel dirty just for reading this |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 16:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
yep, in 2nd i think it was much longer.
just go with whichever.
anyway, i feel dirty just for reading this
From the 2E PHB:
quote:
Elves often live to be over 1,200 years old, although long before this time they feel compelled to depart the realms of men and mortals.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 16:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Just a bit over 300 years?! Didn't FR elves use to able to live over 600 years?
-Yes, their lifespans were cut quite a bit, which is why it causes some lore incongruities, from lore that was written when Elves had much longer lifespans. I, personally, in everything I write, utilize 1,000~ years benchmark. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2008 : 19:45:16
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| So, I suppose that the question of whether or not elves like Eliath Craulnober survived the Spellplague is moot...seeing as how he would have died of old age, Spellplague or no. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Topic |
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Elven Fertility
