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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Nov 2008 : 23:52:29
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I don't know what the legal aspect of this would be, but does anyone familiar with the game "Total War" know if it would be possible to create a variation of it set within the Forgotten Realms?
Is it legal to do so if done without profit?
Any ideas at all...
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2008 : 17:37:06
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| Legality issues aside, that sounds like fun. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 11:32:50
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As a Total War (Rome) modder, I'd say it's both possible, and can be done without legal reprecussions. One of the best sites dedicated to Total War modding is this one: www.twcenter.net . The modding forum holds great tutorials, and if one is persistent in searching thoroughly, one should be able to find out how to mod many, many aspects of the original game, from changing the world map to Faerūn's, replacing all the factions, creating entirely new graphics for the units, and soforth.
Making such a mod would be time-consuming but quite rewarding, if executed correctly, I think. |
Edited by - Amarel Derakanor on 30 Nov 2008 11:37:49 |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 17:13:30
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I seem to remember the Tolkien estate stomping pretty hard on several fan mods a few year back. Not saying for a moment that WOTC/Hasbro would do the same but it is something that has to be kept in mind. I would want to go through all the work required only to have a lawyers letter arrive just as the mod went into beta.
Personally I think it would be great fun. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2008 : 18:31:31
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I just don't know anything at all about computers beyond the basics.
I was just hoping to inspire folks to do it and then benefit from all their hard work!  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 10:00:19
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Hah! So, just for the record.... Any ideas for the factions, Dalor? And where will it take place (as in: will it include any other continent than Faerūn?)?
...And while we're at it, I'm sure I saw a drow unti somewhere at the site. No total conversion mod, if I remember correctly. |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 15:07:49
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I've never played the game, but I have some ideas about the factions.
Drow
Zhentarim
Red Wizards
Shadovar
Cormyr
Elves
Just to name a few. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 16:24:21
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Well, I'm not sure how easy it would be to make a TW: Forgotten Realms of the entire thing...that would be a HUGE map with provinces everywhere.
In my thinking, Shadowdale alone would be one province, Daggerdale also, perhaps Teshendale, Voonlar, Yulash and Zhentil Keep all.
So just in that small area you would have five or six provinces; which for TW is rather extensive...I mean, heck, in Total War II, all of Germany is only like seven I think (not looking at it right now).
As for Factions; it would depend on what area you were concentrating on. If we take only the Heartlands:
Cormyr: with several "rebel"/free areas surrounding it; like the cities of the southern coast, Tun "Rebels", Goblins of the Marches and Stonelands...etc. Cormyr should also suffer periodic rebellion in obvious places like Marsember and Arabel; essentially a low loyalty rating in its provinces that require it to maintain plenty of garrison troops to hold down rebellion. This isn't because Cormyr is a repressive place; but simply to reflect all of the underhanded dealings going on in the land from other factions manipulations. Also, because Cormyr would have such a powerful military, it needs to be kept somewhat in check and occupied at home so that it doesn't expand too quickly. Cormyr would probably have the best all around military in the game; with a solid mix of various types of soldiers. I would restrict their lands to have NO mercenaries for hire though...or only the very most basic ones and only very rarely.
Dales: scattered with wild areas between comprised of "rebel" groups consisting of bandits, drow raiders, etc. The Dales might be able to recruit elven units if they both hold the Standing Stone "province" and build a suitable structure for recruiting them. I would start the "capital" of the Dales as whichever most recent Dale hosted the Shieldmeet; but it could of course be moved. Also, I wouldn't make Scardale part of the Dales; but a strong "rebel" province. Archendale, also, doesn't feel right as belonging to the Dales either at the start. They should be a "rebel" province. The only Dales I would make part of this faction would be: Shadowdale, Daggerdale, Mistledale, Battledale, Featherdale, Tasseldale, and Deepingdale. I would perhaps include Harrowdale, but it might serve best as independent at the start and need to be conquered or "bribed" into the fold. Forgot Highdale, but I wouldn't make them part of the Dales either for this game. As a note: the Dales wouldn't have hardly any cavalry to speak of; but would make heavy use of the Spear and Bow Yeoman type soldiers. Their best bet would be mercenary cavalry for heavier types, but some light cavalry to use on their own. Also, Ships wouldn't be something they were very good at.
Hillsfar: powerful city-state holding the city proper and perhaps one or two rural areas around it. One being the lands between Hillsfar and Yulash; the other being perhaps Elventree? Depending on the time this version of Total War: Forgotten Realms was set, Hillsfar may or may not hold Yulash. Heavy use of Mercenary Soldiers in this faction.
Sembia: cluster of provinces around its primary cities, but some even internal Sembian provinces as "rebel" areas simply because the merchants aren't that cohesive...then of course a scattering of "rebel" areas north of Sembia that didn't belong to the Dales. Another user of mercenaries in large numbers; though their navy would probably be pretty good.
City-States of the Vast: a non-player "kingdom" that could more easily resist intrusion, and also have a number of wild areas for it to concentrate on as well.
Pirates of the Fallen Stars: another non-player "kingdom" of many ships and units that could raid the coasts of Sembia and Cormyr.
Orcs and Ogres of Thar: a non-player Kingdom that could cause trouble for expansion onto the north coast of the Moonsea.
A non-player kingdom consisting of Phlan, Melvaunt and Thentia which would represent a stumbling block to Zhentish expansion. It could even be called the "Kingdom of Thar" I guess. It isn't accurate for the area, but it should at least be a cohesive group so that Zhentil Keep doesn't grow unchecked.
Mulmaster would have to be its own faction. It could hold a good sized city, then a small outlying province or two with very low populations...but Ylriphon (sp?...again no maps looked at right now) would remain independent.
Zhentil Keep/Zhentarim faction: would hold Zhentil Keep province, Tesh province, Citadel of the Raven Province, perhaps a province within the desert/Stonelands, and then a province around Darkhold. Despite the Zhentarim's use of soldiers, I see them as primarily a merchant power; so they would make heavy use of trade. The Zhentarim military could have some decent types, but the lower level buildings should only give them crap soldiers like "Orcish Mercenary" or something instead of human troops.
Free Cities of the Western Heartlands: I would stop the map not too far to the west of Darkhold and have a couple of very strong non-player provinces there consisting of the more powerful city-states in that area.
Bedine: another non-player kingdom; with little population, but a decent array of camel and horse riding soldiers.
Barbarians of the Ride: yet another non-player kingdom.
LOTS of "rebel" regions left open for expansion into. The Desertsmouth Mountains, Stormhorns, Dragonspine Mts and etc. would all of course be essentially land you couldn't expand into; but some wild regions like the Spiderhaunt and such could be interesting.
The only thing about the Heartlands is that you don't have a Dwarven or Elven Kingdom to play; but I solved this idea by thinking that it would be cool to have Dwarven Mercenary Siege Engineers that give you access to siege gear without building it. Also, Elven Scout units would be high grade and deadly mercenaries...either as Horse Archers (a very rare thing in the Heartlands) or Longbowmen. As I noted in the Dales area above, they could also be recruited by the Dales if a structure of sufficient level was built and the Standing Stone "Province" was held by the Dales. While Semberholme and the Elven Court do have elves in them, I would still make them very strong NPC areas that it would take one hell of an army to conquer. My feeling is that beyond a couple of elven provinces, a true elven faction wouldn't be good for the area because it would take away from the Dales faction too much. I always thought of Cormanthor as the Roman Empire that finally let too many barbarians into its borders to live. 
Clerical Units could be recruited from various churches. Just like in Total War, various churches can be built that give bonuses to the lands they are built within. As an example, if a Temple (not just shrine) of Bane was built; not only would it give a high loyalty bonus due to law, but it might give a bonus to experience of troops trained there as well as a Unit of Banite Clerics once a sufficiently large Temple was constructed. These clerics could simply be modified so that they have a combat value (and are probably mounted and/or on foot units) and a special ability like chanting. Their "missile" combat ability would be a short supply of ranged attacks that deal a respectful amount of damage. Clerical Units in an army could perhaps give increased chances for unit losses to be replaced as well (not sure if this can be done though, the only instance I recall in Total War is in TW: Rome when my Brittanian leaders had a great number of witches and such as retinue expansions that allowed increased chances of recovery for units).
Wizard's could instead be unique individuals. Essentially you could re-skin a hard hitting piece of siege gear and just give them a ranged weapon value of a good high number. They would have a few body-guards with them; but would quickly die against a massed unit attack (just like a wizard would). Wizards would require a certain structure to be built and take two or more turns to produce. A special Wizard unit could be had by any faction that essentially represented a very powerful wizard; but only one per faction. This would take into account people like Manshoon, Vangy and even Elminster. Such a unit would be "destroyed" on the battle-field; but could be re-made again and again; which would essentially amount to the individual needing time to mend and re-equip. I guess the same could be done for clerics too.
I think I would shy away from Princesses in this game, and instead allow both Men and Women to be Faction Leaders. Anyone they "marry" to produce offspring would be an "off-stage" mate like women are usually treated in Total War. It would be awesome to see a King Azoun on the battle-field of Total War! Or a Manshoon (unique wizard unit?! ) or Randal of Daggerdale. Faction Leaders could have retinue expansions just like in TW, but tailored more to a Fantasy Game feel. Manshoon could have something like "Banite Advisor" or something...I dunno. It would be easy to expand on the ideas though.
There are even "assassin" units in Total War that could be used easily to represent a unit of Rangers or even Hired Assassins (from Sembia or Zhentil Keep) to be used on the battle-field.
Mercenary Orcs (hired only within the areas of Thar or the Vast perhaps) would be low morale but low cost; with only Zhentil Keep actually being able to recruit an orcish type unit.
Like I mentioned before, Natural Disasters could be expanded to not only include floods and such; but also Dragon Flights, Lycanthropy outbreaks, or even Vampire infestations! All of these could cause populations to drop and structures to be damaged...especially the Dragon Flights!
One special unit that should be available to every faction is the Adventuring Band. A small number of troops, but with a helluva punch in melee, charge and missile. Very expensive to raise, maintain and such; but something that would keep with the spirit of the Forgotten Realms. They would be recruited only from a structure being built called the Adventurer's Guildhall. Each larger structure of the Adventurer's Guildhall would produce more experienced units, but also give an income bonus to the faction that builds it and perhaps a Loyalty Bonus from Happiness too...everyone loves to hear tales of adventure! Adventuring Bands could of course suffer injury, but being brought back to an Adventuring Guild hall containing city would allow them to recruit new members. 
Really, the options are limitless...I just know NOTHING about computer programming.
As a note: this is only a suggestion for the Heartlands area. Any number of things could be done with areas farther afield. I just think that the area around Cormyr/Dales/Moonsea/Sembia offers the greatest opportunity to have a more Total War feel to it; without a whole world approach that would mean really cutting back on the number of provinces and cutting places that are really cool (like the Dales) down to a province or two on a world scale. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 18:44:44
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A bit off-topic:
a work on this conversion could prove useful also for a project I'm working on since a couple of years:
Birthright rules used for the Realms... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2008 : 21:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
A bit off-topic:
a work on this conversion could prove useful also for a project I'm working on since a couple of years:
Birthright rules used for the Realms...
I did the same thing! I still have the Heartlands map I converted to "provinces" too. I really should go to a pro-shop and get that sucker scanned! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2008 : 10:10:45
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Very interesting, Dalor. I belive that the scale of the conversion could be something of a problem, however. You see, there is a hardcoded limit for 21 factions in Rome: Total War(including the 'rebel' faction), and I excpect it to be quite similar for the other games....
Which leaves a rather interesting question:
What factions should be included? |
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OrbViper
Acolyte
United Kingdom
1 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2009 : 12:09:10
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| I'm not a modder myself, but I have spent quite a lot of time a twcentre, and I don't think you'd have to worry about any legal issues. The Third Age mod is possibly the most popular mod for Medieval 2, and if that's still running it'd probably be fine. However, creating Faerun from scratch and if no one has had previous experience in Total War modding, seems a daunting task at best. |
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Moonlight
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2009 : 13:33:32
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| Have you consider making this mod with Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset? The game use 3.5e and you have available all the FR races and a great deal of monsters. Maybe you should try some PW for this game and see if that's what you are looking for. |
Sehanine is dreaming... |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2009 : 15:45:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Moonlight
Have you consider making this mod with Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset? The game use 3.5e and you have available all the FR races and a great deal of monsters. Maybe you should try some PW for this game and see if that's what you are looking for.
Well, the Total war series is a battle and strategy game, there are not many likenesses to the Neverwinter Nights game.
The Europa Barbarorum mod for Rome TW is probably the only computer game I have actually spent any time playing and enjoyed in years .
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 01:48:37
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I'm still curious if anyone would be interested in Making a Module of this game from Total War: Rome or Total War II?
The Kingdoms expansion has been used by some people to make an awesome Middle-Earth game of war.
You can see it here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=654
Also, if anyone likes "A Game of Thrones" they are working on a mod for it too at:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=721
I am sorry to say that I am not a computer literate person at all...I can't even design a webpage really...but a Forgotten Realms Total War game would be WONDERFUL. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 07:12:09
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Just to let everyone know: after I finish my "The Ride" project, I am actually going to undertake working on this mod for the Total War II: Kingdoms game.
I will admit that it will be slow going, with many painful strides; but I have looked at how this is done, and I think as long as I have the time I should be able to get it out in about a year or so.
Yeah, a year is a long time; but I actually have this figured out. I'll be borrowing a lot of the code for my project from other fantasy games, as well as a good bit of modeling that I'll have to have someone else do; but most of the work I will be doing myself.
Of course, even AFTER The Ride project, it will only be done after the next two semesters are over.
If anyone at all is interested in working on this here at Candlekeep, send me a PM and we can at least talk about things until then.
As a bit of a preview: I've decided to place the mod in the Old Grey Box era and start the game effective 135x.
The factions I've decided on so far are going to be:
Cormyr
Dales
Hillsfar
Scardale
Sembia
Melvaunt/Thentia
Mulmaster
Zhentil Keep
Major NPC Factions will be:
Barbarians of the Ride
Bedine
Free Cities of the Vast
Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars
Thar
Westgate
Minor NPC Factions will be (bandit groups):
Cult of the Dragon
Drow Raiders
Goblins of the Marches
Orc Bands (random Hordes as well)
Stonelands Raiders
I'd be glad to hear any and all suggestions on this!
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 08:47:53
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It would depend on how far south and east you were planning on doing the map. Amn, Turmish and Rashemen would be logical as playable factions if the map stretched that far. Not only are they important parts of the regions, but they also have different feels from the north-west giving more variation.
But all in all this sounds like an enormous undertaking and I wish you all the luck I can think of. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 16:38:10
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It will primarily be the Western Heartlands with some bit of lands around.
Perhaps as far west as Darkhold and some surrounding areas, The Vast up to the eastern mountains (not so far as to include lands of Impiltur). North to include all of Thar and The Ride, south to include the Dragon Coast, but not so far as Turmish.
That will be large enough to start I think. I know lots of other lands would be interesting; but for scope and my own abilities, that is as good as I'm going to be able to go for now. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 21:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Moonlight
Have you consider making this mod with Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset? The game use 3.5e and you have available all the FR races and a great deal of monsters. Maybe you should try some PW for this game and see if that's what you are looking for.
I would strongly advise against it. Moding in NWN2 takes way too much time and effort. Now, if you said moding the original NWN, then I would say - go for it! NWN is one of those precious games that are highly modable and it does not take previous experience or knowledge.
Also, NWN is already based on modified D&D system. Modified so it can be playable as a video-game. That means one would not need to invent/adapt magic system, plus it has plenty options when it comes to classes and game is playable even on older machines (game came out in 2002).
Tren |
Edited by - Tren of Twilight Tower on 07 Oct 2010 21:42:14 |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 21:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Just to let everyone know: after I finish my "The Ride" project, I am actually going to undertake working on this mod for the Total War II: Kingdoms game.
Best luck, Dalor! I hope you get some help from available folks. Please keep us posted.
Tren |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 02:54:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower
quote:
Originally posted by Moonlight
Have you consider making this mod with Neverwinter Nights 2 toolset? The game use 3.5e and you have available all the FR races and a great deal of monsters. Maybe you should try some PW for this game and see if that's what you are looking for.
I would strongly advise against it. Moding in NWN2 takes way too much time and effort. Now, if you said moding the original NWN, then I would say - go for it! NWN is one of those precious games that are highly modable and it does not take previous experience or knowledge.
Also, NWN is already based on modified D&D system. Modified so it can be playable as a video-game. That means one would not need to invent/adapt magic system, plus it has plenty options when it comes to classes and game is playable even on older machines (game came out in 2002).
Tren
Yes, none of the NWN code is going to be useful to me actually...two totally different animals.
Total War II: Kingdoms is a good engine to run factions off of. There are many in that game, and so I'll have to pretty much cannibalize the factions from that game. Re-write scripts, re-model armies, and re-do the map (which is going to be the easiest part for me).
After that, there really isn't too much concern...except for the Pope!
I'm not exactly sure what to do with the Pope...I can't very well tie in the various factions into one religion. In a mod for Lord of the Rings he is usually made into Sauron! There is no real similarity in TTII:Kingdoms...so I'm still stumped for what to do with him. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 15:59:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
After that, there really isn't too much concern...except for the Pope!
I'm not exactly sure what to do with the Pope...I can't very well tie in the various factions into one religion. In a mod for Lord of the Rings he is usually made into Sauron! There is no real similarity in TTII:Kingdoms...so I'm still stumped for what to do with him.
I haven't played TW but some ideas for a Pope: Elminster, Manshoon, Larloch, Nobanion or one of the other deities that spends a lot of time on the Prime Material. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 17:01:28
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| None of them would work that well, it would have to be something the others might be threatened by or defer to. AO would be the only alternative I can think of, if it is quite impossible to remove the faction. It might be the magister, Larloch or Elminster if it was part of a greater storyline, but for the Realms as they are I cant think of a good substitute. |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 00:20:38
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| Pope = avatar of some deity who has decided for whatever plot reason to meddle on the prime for ahile |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 01:44:48
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Well, I have thought of it a bit, and I think I could make the Pope into the Harpers.
Harpers meddle in all sorts of things; but I might be able to institute them in the game in such a way as they would only really relate to the "good" factions. Instead of calling Crusades, they would instead call on goodly kingdoms to work against a particular threat.
I don't know...still in the thinking on this one. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 02:14:03
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| Perhaps we should shy away from real-world comparisons and commentary before someone takes it the wrong way... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 03:06:27
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It isn't a real-world comparison Wooly...it is from the game. The Pope is a faction, and it is an integral part of the games hard-coded core. The "Papal Faction" is usually changed to something else in the mods.
In a Lord of the Rings Mod, the evil factions are actually beholden to Sauron...but the modders used the Pope for the purpose. I'm only exploring how to use this particular part of the game through discussion. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 08:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by coach
Pope = avatar of some deity who has decided for whatever plot reason to meddle on the prime for ahile
I don't really like that idea. It would give a sort of "adventure" plot to a game centring on conquest and empire building.
One possible solution would be to have the papal faction be the Chosen. If one faction actually went overboard with magic in some way or the other way around there could be a reaction. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 18:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by coach
Pope = avatar of some deity who has decided for whatever plot reason to meddle on the prime for ahile
I don't really like that idea. It would give a sort of "adventure" plot to a game centring on conquest and empire building.
One possible solution would be to have the papal faction be the Chosen. If one faction actually went overboard with magic in some way or the other way around there could be a reaction.
Hmmm...I actually like that idea. It made me realize that there is a script in the normal game where the Pope demands that a faction leader build a church/cathedral and such...that could be changed into the Chosen/Magister or some such being the Papal Faction and working with kingdoms to have them increase magic in the world.
I could use the existing scripts (tweaked a bit obviously) and really only change the Papal Faction on the surface...There are even Inquisitors that I could change into Harper Agents perhaps...
Still some thinking to be done on it...but I'm liking the ideas you guys are giving me! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Total War: Forgotten Realms
