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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 16:49:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ghost King
Long story short, unless people have some super ability to tell what alignment someone is, anybody can work with anybody else.
Well, there is detect evil... |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 17:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by see
So. Given the pre-existing lore from 2e (mentioned in my previous post), and given the precedent of St. Cuthbert directly in the core rules, I'd have limited the alignment choices of Helm's clerics in 3.x FR to LG and LN only. I think it was a mistake that it wasn't, and a bigger mistake that no errata was ever issued to change it.
While I agree that many would prefer it that way, I think it would be wrong to assume that it was a mistake on their part. As it has been shown in previous posts, mostly by Mr de Bie, LE clerics of Helm COULD find their place in this church, but are significantly in fewer number than the LN or LG. If you disagree, and you are certainly allowed to, that's fine, but I don't suggest that you wait for an errata (mostly because Helm died in 4th ed  )
quote:
Originally posted by see
Yeah, if I were going to hold my breath for errata, I'd be awfully blue by now. But whether they allowed LE clerics of Helm intentionally or accidentally, it was still a mistake/an error/wrong/whatever.
Precedent and pre-existing lore is a good argument. It should be noted, however, that faiths change and evolve as time passes, for precisely the same reason worlds must--to stay alive.
Here's a potential explanation for why they made the change:
If Faerun-proper were hearing about the Maztica debacle (as noted in Faiths and Pantheons), and (again mentioned) Helm's actions in the ToT lowered his reputation (as it were), it shouldn't come as a surprise that he and his church might have grown a little more desperate for followers. A deity's power is tied to the number of folks who believe in him/her, and maybe Helm was unable to be quite as selective as before?
Also, a deity always hopes that his/her followers will grow and "see the light" (as it were), whether that means changing alignment, or philosophy, or whatever. The best servants are made, not born. To draw an example, Mask took a great interest in Erevis Cale (from Kemp's books), who wasn't priestly or particularly evil-aligned at all (granted, this is debatable, as books aren't sourcebooks, but if you read the two Cale series, I've no doubt you'll come to the conclusion that he is HARDLY your standard evil character), and turned him into one of his best (and least tethered) servants.
So I don't think it's too controversial to have evil Helmites--and in 3e, not 2e, since the rule of “divine power tied to faith” has been in place longer, allowing Helm’s stiff stance on admitting only non-evil worshippers to cost him power, and a number of things have happened to diminish Helm's selectivity.
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I understand and appreciate arguments in favor of LE Helmites. I just think they misjudge Helm's personal character (with the 2e lore being used to bolster my opinion of Helm's character).
Oh totally--no question, there. They misunderstand Helm's character and twist his dogma to suit their own ends (in a sense, so do good-aligned worshippers of Helm, but at least they're closer).
My point is that Helm just accepts their worship because, well, he has to. I’m sure he’d prefer otherwise (good alignments tend to be more in keeping with “guardian” and “protection”), but lots of faiths do bad things in the name of keeping themselves afloat.
Excellent analysis, by the way, of how Helm is a neutral deity who opposes evil deities and “prefers the company” of good deities/followers. “Prefers the company of good” comes straight from the 2e druid’s handbook in describing the True Neutral alignment: how one can prefer to have a noble knightly kingdom next door that keeps the region stable (within reason), rather than a murderous, anarchic orc kingdom that loots and burns one’s forest, without that being a conflict of alignment.
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Helm, I feel, would consider characters who crossed the line into a full-blown evil alignments too much of a risk. In reaction, Helm would cut off their spells and send a vision to inform both the Hemite and his superior(s) in that he had done so. Of course, an evil god might continue to supply spells, and send a vision claiming the first vision was the deceptive act of an evil god. This would be especially likely in the case of Mask or Cyric.
As I suggested, it's also entirely possible that Helm accepts these LE worshippers in the hopes that they will one day change: “see the light” and become, well, not-evil.
Or perhaps it’s just about keeping them in his personal paddock, rather than letting them flock to another, eviler deity. (Is eviler a word? meh!)
That’s one of my favorite lines from Heroes season 3, from Mrs. Petrelli to Noah Bennett (to paraphrase): “Whether you work with him or not, I’m putting [him] in play—all you need to decide is whether that’s under your supervision.”
At least if LE priests/knights/etc follow Helm, he has a chance to fix or at least restrain them. If he rejects them, not only does he lose the divine power from their worship, but also he potentially looses enemies of good into the world.
Cheers
P.S. Pardon the self-indulgent moment, but this whole discussion reminds me of a Realms novel I cooked up but never wrote (at least not yet), involving a paladin and a blackguard forced to work together to defeat a greater threat . . . and the blossoming romance between them. The story was more about their raw chemistry, whose philosophy would triumph, and who would change (or both?), rather than the many duels between them.
We'll see if that novel ever comes to fruition.
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 17:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
P.S. Pardon the self-indulgent moment, but this whole discussion reminds me of a Realms novel I cooked up but never wrote (at least not yet), involving a paladin and a blackguard forced to work together to defeat a greater threat . . . and the blossoming romance between them. The story was more about their raw chemistry, whose philosophy would triumph, and who would change (or both?), rather than the many duels between them.
We'll see if that novel ever comes to fruition.
That's my kind of story. Any idea about which gods would be worshipped by both? Or what would that threat be? Please tell us before it becomes NDA  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 20:44:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ionik Knight
Earth style spelling of names is rare but not unheard of. Gareth, Christine, and Sylvia of the Bloodstone lands come to my mind immediately; and Earth names with alternate spellings are fairly common.
I'm with Faraer on this one. The "Bloodstone names" are pretty atypical and I wouldn't say they are representative of names in the Realms.
That said, you can still name your character whatever you want. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 20:47:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
How can a neutral god empower paragons of virtue?
Because their domain/teachings is or represents something a "paragon of virtue" might be willing to uphold, even if the actual god isn't good-aligned. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 21:47:05
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| Couldn't the same be said then of lawful evil blackguards? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 22:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
quote:
Originally posted by Ghost King
Long story short, unless people have some super ability to tell what alignment someone is, anybody can work with anybody else.
Well, there is detect evil...
I know I was just stating that most Faerun citizens, or real life for that matter, are not capable of such spells so they could work with someone of opposing views be whatever that is. Even if people have the spell persay, like a paladin, to find evil they probably don't have that ability active continously and probably don't detect evil frequently unless they suspect something.
Also, just my opinion mind you, I think people would be rather offended if you casted a spell to figure out what "side" they are on whether they be any alignment. What if you got casted detect evil on you and were just minding your own business to see if you were evil due to the fact you just didn't like the person for whatever reason? While the spells certainly help identify someone's core beliefs it could be used to imprison someone for crimes that they may have never commited. Just cause you found an evil person in the room doesn't mean they are scheming or doing anything wrong.
This is the reason why in the real world most countries now have innocent until proven guilty legal systems. This was not always the case and it is a huge leap from what previous legal systems were in the past. People were literally killed just being accused of guilt without even a trial, and even if they did get one judgment was already decided in some cases. Heck, in the dark and medevil ages people sometimes never got a trial and were imprisoned for decades and died in their cells from hunger, sickness or both before they even saw a trial.
Also, just one quick thing, even though the Realms has a great amount of magic to discover truths about peoples motives and thoughts, there are just as many spells that prevent such intrusions to detect them. While a paladin might be able detect evil in a ballroom to find the evil bandit king in disguise, for example, but never find him through those means for two reaons: 1) He might have mind shielding and nondetection casted on himself or through a magic item and 2) There could be more evil people then just himself there that might not have anything to do with the bandit king's plots or followers.
Fact is the paladin has to have knowledge and a degree of evidence in order of an actual crime before he can arrest them or smite them if the person refuses to surrender to him/her. Different story all together if you're someone without such qualms of morality and ethics on your mind.
Interesting thought though, perhaps Helm or any deity that's neutral with paladins and blackguards in their service, could prevent their detect spells from picking up evil or good nature clergy so that they may work together. Cause after all it is the deity in question that grants both their powers and can decide whether or not it works as intended. That's just an idea you could explore if you want to make either side clueless to the other.
Anyways, just thought I'd clarify my statement to avoid any confusion. This discussion is definiately helping come up with some good ideas for future campaigns. My group will probably not thank you though. [Insert evil laughter]
~Ghost King~
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Edited by - Ghost King on 18 Dec 2008 22:07:58 |
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ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Learned Scribe
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 22:20:21
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| In my opinion, a paladin would be very likely to detect evil on people that they think may be anything less that pure, shining good. This is because they are supposed to be the most upright examples of good, and even associating with neutral characters may diminish their reputation. This is part of the reason why many people find paladins annoying: they are slow to trust others and they are very much holier-than-thou. Now, you do bring up a good point about mind-shielding, but unless they have the ability to actually disguise their alignment, rather than simply blocking it from being determined, I think this would make a paladin suspicious. This is just my interpretation of paladins, however, and I don't believe this has anything to do with real-world politics and morals. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 22:53:43
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quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Now, you do bring up a good point about mind-shielding, but unless they have the ability to actually disguise their alignment, rather than simply blocking it from being determined, I think this would make a paladin suspicious.
Sorry, but you are wrong. If a paladin cast detect evil and an evil character is protected with mind shielding (spell or magic item), the paladin will simply sense no EVIL aura. It will only mean that everyone in the spell range is either good or neutral, so he will have no reasons to be suspicious (unless he has some clue that the character might be evil, like if he's killing a puppy or sumthing ). Beside, Undetectable Alignment is of even lower than non-detection, since Undetectable alignment hide only your alignment and non-detection protects you from almost ALL divination spells. Anyway, that's off-topic, sorry (I make off-topic posts in my own scroll, sigh). |
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Ghost King
Learned Scribe
USA
253 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2008 : 23:19:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by ranger_of_the_unicorn_run
Now, you do bring up a good point about mind-shielding, but unless they have the ability to actually disguise their alignment, rather than simply blocking it from being determined, I think this would make a paladin suspicious.
Sorry, but you are wrong. If a paladin cast detect evil and an evil character is protected with mind shielding (spell or magic item), the paladin will simply sense no EVIL aura. It will only mean that everyone in the spell range is either good or neutral, so he will have no reasons to be suspicious (unless he has some clue that the character might be evil, like if he's killing a puppy or sumthing ). Beside, Undetectable Alignment is of even lower than non-detection, since Undetectable alignment hide only your alignment and non-detection protects you from almost ALL divination spells. Anyway, that's off-topic, sorry (I make off-topic posts in my own scroll, sigh).
Who better to go off topic then the orginal poster.
You answered exactly how I would have, Kilvan. But as for paladins not associating with neutral aligned I think they would for the possibility of bringing to the side of good. Remember a Paladin is a Champion of Good and will not shy away from people of questionable behavior in order to show them that being good is its own reward. Now you are right, ranger, in saying they won't associate knowingly with evil characters. That's how they stay "pure" so to speak because evil insults not only their code of conduct, but everything that is consider good which they represent.
Now let's say a neutral person repeatably insults his code of conduct, then the paladin, after giving many warnings to stop, would leave or if they did an evil or illegal act arrest them and have justice deal with them.
Ranger, I do see how you could see paladins the way you do, in a way I share that point-of-view of them. But as you said we both differ on our opinion of what a paladin would do or act. Which is comforting if you ask me, otherwise what a bore that would be if every paladin was a card board cut-out of good and no differing personality or perspective.
~Ghost King~ |
Edited by - Ghost King on 18 Dec 2008 23:21:24 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2008 : 05:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
That's my kind of story. Any idea about which gods would be worshipped by both? Or what would that threat be? Please tell us before it becomes NDA
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but no such luck--it's entirely possible the story will come back around at some point and I'll end up writing it after all: whether for the Realms or outside.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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paladin and blackguard of the same god
