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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 07:52:39
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IF...Ao's edict of "number and fervor of worshippers = level of omnipotence"...
And IF...the number of drow (or at least Lloth-worshipping drow) on the planet remains relatively what it was prior to the Spellplague...
THEN...how is she considered a greater diety?
Can she really have that many worshippers considering the number of viable drow? I ask knowing that yes, not all of her worshippers are dark elves and yes, she may have less competition with fewer drow gods...but still. That doesn't seem to quite explain it though...
Of course, she's probably the most well-known god in the Realms. Maybe Ao takes the NYT Bestseller List into consideration when handing out the influence crown...
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 08:51:56
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quote:
THEN...how is she considered a greater diety?
Unfortunately, she is considered a greater diety because that the 4th edition design team wanted her to be one. Using logic while dealing with the $££p£ag is something that shouldn't be attempted, I'm afraid. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 16:39:01
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| I'd expect that the percentage would be a factor, too. There may not be a huge number of drow compared to humans, but for the vast majority of the drow, there is only one deity to follow. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 18:33:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd expect that the percentage would be a factor, too. There may not be a huge number of drow compared to humans, but for the vast majority of the drow, there is only one deity to follow.
Sure, but the same could be said for kobolds or the aboleth, right? I guess 'coolness' is also a consideration... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36812 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 19:11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd expect that the percentage would be a factor, too. There may not be a huge number of drow compared to humans, but for the vast majority of the drow, there is only one deity to follow.
Sure, but the same could be said for kobolds or the aboleth, right? I guess 'coolness' is also a consideration...
Yeah, but I believe the kobolds have more of a pantheon, and I don't see the aboleth having much use at all for deities... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 19:31:59
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Their's is a religous society (matraichal based around the church of Lolth), and 'Religous Fervor' counts quite a bit.
I used to have my own formula that I posted once over at WotC, similar to Dagnirion's -
Basically, a person produces a number of 'Worship points' equal to how many times a day he thinks about a deity and the quality of said 'thoughts' (Swearing with the god's name counts, but not nearly as much as saying a small, devout prayer) multiplied by the level of the person.
Ergo, a city full of level 3-5 Drow might be worth more then an entire country of level one farmers, especially considering how much Lolth is on every Drow's mind - cities aren't filled with her images for nothing; if a god gets 'Worship points' every time someone thinks of them, then it makes perfect sense to fill your cities with images of them!
So an average Drow - even Drizzt - probably has Lolth on his or her mind a hundred times more often then farmer w/pitchfork from Cormyr has Chauntea on his mind. Lolth doesn't ingrain herself into every aspect of Dark Elven life for nothing. 
And after the Spellplague she had much more power because the Drow had way fewer gods to chose from. I know WotC stupidly raised her power level before offing the others, but I just chalk that up to temporal paradoxes and 'things divine'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Nov 2008 19:33:59 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 21:03:11
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That is very true - I could imagine that deities that feed off of fear or hate or chaos are nearly as often brought "to mind" as others, and while fearing a deity is not the same as worshipping as such, it would make a difference either way.
Good point, Markustay... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 22:08:26
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I just want to toss in my support of this concept of fear-yielding-power to a deity.
Metaphorically, to fear something is to give it power over you . . . so why wouldn't that be literal with gods?
If a god does something really cool (like sacrifice himself/avatar to save an entire city, as Torm did in the ToT), then it leads to more people pushing their faith toward that deity (either out of love or terror). Likewise, if a god is seen to take the field of battle and be defeated, I'm sure that would lead to the god weakening (at least a little). It's not about how many hearts you "own", but about how much love/hate you get from how many folk.
(And, possibly, how powerful those folk might be--to explain why, for instance, Shar could be more powerful than a kobold deity? Just a thought.)
I suspect this is one reason for gods to be careful with their avatars. Picture if you dare Bane in a pink tutu and leiderhosen dancing a particularly lecherous tango with Shar in drag, for instance.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2008 : 23:23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
IF...Ao's edict of "number and fervor of worshippers = level of omnipotence"...
Both before and after the Godswar, that is one contributing factor of a god's might. (Whoever conceived the edict either hadn't read the Old Grey Box closely or was consciously echoing our-world PR releases.) The rest is the irreducible (to 'portfolio' or anything else) grand mystery of what the god Is.
Ed discussed reverential and appeasement (propitiatory) worship last year.quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
Using logic while dealing with the $££p£ag is something that shouldn't be attempted, I'm afraid.
Mortal logic doesn't go very far towards understanding the divine, full stop, as Ed has kept reminding us. |
Edited by - Faraer on 11 Nov 2008 23:27:48 |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 08:25:41
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I've had the following take on the matter, which is a bit of a mixture between EG's principle that everyone in the Realms believes that all gods exist and that, at any given time, they may pay some tribute or try to placate them, and the principle from Planescape which states that Belief is Power, i.e., if enough people believe something is fact, it becomes fact (or whatever passes for it among deities).
In my little D&D World, power of a deity is not tied in a linear way to the number of worshippers. Deity One has one gazillion creatures who are his/her/its worshippers, and Deity Two has one gazillion plus one, therefore Deity Two is more powerful; nevermind that these worshippers probably divide their piety (for lack of a better term) between numerous deities, but that each probably gets some juice from "non-worshippers" who occasionally placate or invoke the deity's favor.
I've taken the view that the power of a deity depends more on the perception (and therefore the belief) of the mortals on how powerful that deity actually is. If many mortals believe that Bane is one very tough divine dude, then Bane is a very tough divine dude, regardless of whether he has one, ten, or a gazillion people who have declared him their number one celestial (or infernal) service provider.
I came around to this when I was trying to figure out how it was possible for Mystra, who probably has less "worshippers" than most deities (mostly mages, and mages are a distinct minority in any world, rarer, than, say farmers, craftsmen, or warriors) was reckoned one of the greatest powers in the Realms pantheon. In my view - regardless of creed or affilition, there's probably very few people who will dispute that magic is very, very powerful, and that therefore the divine entity in charge of magic must also be very, very powerful...
And Ao's edict? Who's gonna believe him, anyway?  |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 16:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And after the Spellplague she had much more power because the Drow had way fewer gods to chose from. I know WotC stupidly raised her power level before offing the others, but I just chalk that up to temporal paradoxes and 'things divine'.
-I've likened it to her 'concentrating' herself (as in, say, concentrated orange juice) to explain the hows/whys. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 19:38:04
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I tend to take a more literal side with things: if Odin were to appear in all his bearded glory, I just don't see why said 'glory' would be a match for Buddha's, considering the millions (billions?) who would flock to the chubby lord's banner and the (for lack of a better word) energy a deity would enjoy from such a throng of worshippers.
But with the more literal translations of the portfolios in Faerun (God of Chaos, God of War, God Flowers and Bunnies, etc), I think I'd be remiss if I ignored the likelihood that elves on the edge of the Underdark live in constant fear of Lloth's followers, and she probably couldn't help but be fueled by that fear (same with people who are terrified of War coming to their doors, or like me, who don't want to undergo Umberlee's wrath again)... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 12 Nov 2008 19:40:04 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2008 : 23:43:49
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In that link Ed says Eldath and Chauntea are oppossed. What? Why?
Also Drow seem to be quite numerous to me. Shar is listed as having 200,000 worshipers in Lords of Darkness (or something?) and is a greater Goddess. So presumably all those drow cities that are mentioned and other ones not mentioned would lead to more worshipers than that! |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 13:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
In that link Ed says Eldath and Chauntea are oppossed. What? Why?
Maybe because Eldath is a goddess of the wilds, and Chauntea has turned from a wilderness goddess into a patron of farmers. Maybe Eldath sees Chauntea as something of a traitor to wild nature? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Lloth and numerical equality
