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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 03:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Uhm ... basing my Lords of Imphras II knowledge on your article in Dragon 346 i always thought Idriane was an Ilmatari and Rilaunyr a Sunite. Is this another thing changed during the editing phase of the article?
My bad. Got my girls mixed up. Rilaunyr it is. Previous post edited accordingly. Thanks for the pick up.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 07:11:45
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Anyways, sorry George, I will stop crashing your thread.
No crashing occurring. I like the responses. Sometimes it feels like I'm posting to myself!
 
You know, Prince Imphras, son of Lashilmbrar and older brother to Rilimbrar, who was elevated to the line of kings posthumously as King Imphras III was something of a hero. When he and his father (and three-score loyal retainers and guards) were slain in the "bandit attack" engineered by his treacherous cousin Thaum of Telflamm, Imphras is recorded by surviving witnesses (two scullery maids and a page) as dying heroically while trying to save his father. He was found dead in front of the doors to the royal apartments, run through several times, arrow-pierced and ravaged by magic. The survivors state that he lived briefly for a time after his slayers fled, and after Lashilmbrar had lost his head, and his last words were "see to my father, for he is the kingdom".
Imphras was a paladin of Tyr, the first in the Heltharn line since Imbrar, and more than a few people claim that they have had wounds heal and diseases banished after praying at his ornate tomb, located in the Hall of Kings in the Royal Palace in Lyrabar. Some claim that he has become a saint of the faith but his fate in eternal terms is unclear. Attempts to commune with Tyr regarding Prince Imphras have all been unsuccessful and some believe that he is a servant of the god, being groomed for promotion into divine ranks. Others scoff at such notions, stating simply that he was a gallant, brave paladin-prince and a worthy namesake of his forbear Imphras the Great, but no more.
Many observers at the time considered that his treacherous demise was a tragedy for the kingdom, as he would have been a "great king" and the flux and uncertainty brought about by Rilimbrar's succession issues would have been wholly avoided.
Imagine if Imphras III came back ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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mikemax
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 02:00:29
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Thanks Dazlerdal and George. That's basically what I ended up ruling but it eases my mind to have an "official" explanation as to why there aren't multitudes of formerly deceased nobles running around out there.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 00:46:50
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A Day in the Life of a Lord of Imphras II - requested by Lukas Kain
Lord Rilimbraun Heltharn spends most of his time in Lyrabar although he is known to summer in Filur. He wakes just before dawn in his residence Blackstag Manor, just east of the Mount and within a bowshot of the Liongate, and after his ablutions, he spends a candle in prayer to Tyr, seeking his deity's blessings for the day ahead. After a light breakfast (palmgolds and softcurd - peaches and yoghurt to you outlanders), Rilimbraun spends an hour exercising and then follows this with half an hour of meditation. The rest of the morning is spent dealing with correspondence, including "letters of trial" from supplicants before the Lords Court.
Lunch is held at Highsun and where possible includes as much of Rilimbraun's immediate family as is present in Lyrabar (Rilimbraun's wife - Daraltha Emmarask died of "doomrasp" (tuberculosis) a scant 3 winters ago, but he has a son and two daughters and five grandchildren). Immediately after lunch, Rilimbraun walks to Tower Pureheart with an escort of two Low Heralds and Orn (Sir) Ambarglaun Dunwyrm, Rilimbraun's Wardshield (bodyguard) and sits in the Lords Court with other members of the Council as appropriate for several hours. When in session, the Lords Court runs for 4 peals (hours in Lyrabar) from an hour after Highsun.
After his sojourn in the Lords Court, Rilimbraun travels to the Blessed Tritower where he meets with Embar Dorhound of Tyr, discussing the affairs in the Lords Court heard that day. Embar has been assiduously scrying the proceedings all afternoon as he is the rostered Truthseeker for that day. After a courtesy call to Defender of Justice Merlthaun if he is in residence, Rilimbraun travels back to Blackstag Manor for evenfest.
After evenfest, Rilimbraun spends a further candle in prayer to the Grimjaws and then travels to the Royal Palace where he spends an hour or so discussing routine matters of state with his fellow Lords present in Lyrabar, the Queen-Regent and Mage Royal (as appropriate) and any other invited personages of note (Rilimbraun is known to trust and consult with over a dozen high and low born individuals throughout the city on issues where he considers they have expertise - from Shieldlord Perelar Tordrover on matters military, to Ulraus "the Highfactor" Fevendim on issues of trade, to Shipmaster Sarthaun Parltar on goings on in the lands of Thesk, Aglarond and Altumbel).
On a normal day, that would be the end of Rilimbraun's official duties and he would be free to undertake any leisure activities of his choosing (Rilimbraun is a keen numismatist with a special interest in currency that does not involve generic coinage - his most prized possession is an exceedingly rare "flamepetal", one of the ancient forms of currency of the now vanished elven realm of Larlotha) before turning in early for the night.
In a day that was "not normal", Rilimbraun could continue to have meetings throughout the night - or if dealing with a particularly knotty matter in the Lords Court - seek divine inspiration and guidance from Tyr by means of fasting and prayer. In days where the Lords Court was not in session, Rilimbraun would likely spend his afternoon making social calls on prominent nobles (dealing with deaths and births in the main), meeting with foreign ambassadors or trade envoys (where necessary - only the most significant or difficult meetings of this type are conducted by the Lords of Imphras II: such as an envoy from a zulkir of Thay, a personal representative of King Azoun of Cormyr etc.) and/or dealing with significant bureaucratic issues pertaining to the kingdom (the raising or removal of a tax, the appointment of a senior member of the Warsword or Warwand, etc.).
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 10 Oct 2015 05:22:54 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 22:49:20
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Hi George,
I'm curious if you have any input regarding Ammarindar's wizard college of Xothol. I'm not opposed to dwarven magic, but I never cared for them depicted as wizards. In thinking about Xothal and its proximity to Netheril, do you believe it's possible the wizard college was created by the progeny of dwarf-human children grown up to be mages? My initial thoughts were the human blood watered the dwarf down enough to be able to channel the arcane arts. Or perhaps the college was created by Runecasters or both? I kind of like the mixed option, but clan elders back in the day would NOT have approved of this if I understand right.
Then again, King Azkuldar III created the college for clan defense. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 04 Feb 2015 22:52:15 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 01:41:14
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My take on the Xothol is that they were indeed dwarf wizards (which in my Realms had always existed, but in very small numbers), with a particular focus on rune magic. What Azkuldar III did was bring them all together (the clans had always had them "up their sleeves", but never broadcasted that they existed as wizards) and make them a unified force for the first time, tasked with defending the realm magically and coming up with anti-Netherese magic and items (for example, in my campaign, the dwarves of Ammarindar created "spellbane hammers" - a warhammer that on command would levitate and travel alongside you and act as a small-scale rod of absorption (3d4 levels of spells to be absorbed), which when it maxed out would disintegrate but release the absorbed spell energy as healing (1d4 per spell level) to all dwarves within a 10-foot radius).
As and aside, if you're not fixed in terms of a D&D rules and the game setting point of view, the new 5E rules relating to proficiency with armor and casting of spells, make dwarf wizards very doable and not easily distinguishable from their warrior brothers and sisters. They'll still be able to wear a chain shirt for example, and magic missile you till it hurts.
I suppose given Ammarindar's long history and contact with humans, that there may have been some half-dwarves (but not likely Netherese half-dwarves till after Karsus' Folly) who gained membership to the Xothol also.
I also considered that the Xothol wizards would have an affinity for construct magic and that some of their work ended up travelling to Myth Drannor where their work was refined to create "guardian blades" and "living axes" (see FR11 Dwarves Deep).
In my Realms also, the Xothol closed down "officially" because it was no longer needed with the fall of Netheril, but "unoffically" because they had created THE Living Axe (again see FR11) which ran amok and did great damage before being flung away from the realm by desperate teleport magic. That scared the bejeezus out of the reigning king who shut the whole place down.
I note that this is my take, and Eric and I are doing some work on Ammarindar at the point in time (although we've gone into hiatus for a bit). The stuff above may or may not make the cut for whatever we come up with in final form. One day.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Feb 2015 01:44:53 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 10:22:57
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Just to be clear, this isn't a Realms product, it's a Realms fan project, much like the stuff you've been doing. It may never be published. It might be cannibalised for other projects down the track. It may be bought by WotC and put in a back cupboard till the end of days. Not that I want to disappoint or frustrate you, but that's the reality of the situation. If it does see the light of day that will be Eric's call as it is very much his project.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Lukas Kain
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2015 : 11:23:00
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| Ah, thank you George. Very helpful and informative. I managed to miss the notification for it again it seems. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2015 : 17:22:59
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My take on the Xothol is that they were indeed dwarf wizards (which in my Realms had always existed, but in very small numbers), with a particular focus on rune magic. What Azkuldar III did was bring them all together (the clans had always had them "up their sleeves", but never broadcasted that they existed as wizards) and make them a unified force for the first time, tasked with defending the realm magically and coming up with anti-Netherese magic and items (for example, in my campaign, the dwarves of Ammarindar created "spellbane hammers" - a warhammer that on command would levitate and travel alongside you and act as a small-scale rod of absorption (3d4 levels of spells to be absorbed), which when it maxed out would disintegrate but release the absorbed spell energy as healing (1d4 per spell level) to all dwarves within a 10-foot radius).
As and aside, if you're not fixed in terms of a D&D rules and the game setting point of view, the new 5E rules relating to proficiency with armor and casting of spells, make dwarf wizards very doable and not easily distinguishable from their warrior brothers and sisters. They'll still be able to wear a chain shirt for example, and magic missile you till it hurts.
I suppose given Ammarindar's long history and contact with humans, that there may have been some half-dwarves (but not likely Netherese half-dwarves till after Karsus' Folly) who gained membership to the Xothol also.
I also considered that the Xothol wizards would have an affinity for construct magic and that some of their work ended up travelling to Myth Drannor where their work was refined to create "guardian blades" and "living axes" (see FR11 Dwarves Deep).
In my Realms also, the Xothol closed down "officially" because it was no longer needed with the fall of Netheril, but "unoffically" because they had created THE Living Axe (again see FR11) which ran amok and did great damage before being flung away from the realm by desperate teleport magic. That scared the bejeezus out of the reigning king who shut the whole place down.
I note that this is my take, and Eric and I are doing some work on Ammarindar at the point in time (although we've gone into hiatus for a bit). The stuff above may or may not make the cut for whatever we come up with in final form. One day.
-- George Krashos
I really like this. Very cool and much appreciated. Looking forward to seeing what you two cook up regarding Ammarindar. :) |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2015 : 13:32:04
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Hey George,
i would like to ask you informations about the Grey Forest, anything you feel inclined to share and, if that's too much, anything regarding the mid 1370s. There exist only scattered canonical references to the Grey Forest and it's inhabitants, much of those you wove together and developed in your High History of Impiltur. Beside that scant information i could only find short paragraphs in the 3E FRCS that say the forest is home to hobgoblins with a vampire or werewolf chief and that the last elves of the forest transformed themselves into grey trees. I have some difficulty reconciling this with all other Impiltur lore (hobgoblin hordes always coming from the east, presence of half-elves among the Lord of Imphras II with ties to the forest) but whatever. So, here comes the barrage of questions:
- Who are the inhabitants in the mid 1370s?
- Are there still elves? If yes, of what subrace(s)?
- What of half-elves?
- Any particular fey presence?
- Since i suppose the Silver Arrow Pact determined absolute elven sovereignity inside the woodlands but by the 727 there doesn't seem to be any organised elven presence and by 889 Impiltur is sending it's own armed forces inside the forest to solve problems, then i must ask: with the end of Vedrymmell is the Silver Arrow Pact still uphold? If yes, by whom on the elven part?
- Moon elves ruled the forest for a lot of time (-6850 to -1335 with Larlotha and then 75 to 727 with Vedrymmell), are there any significant ruins, buried treasures/surprises or particular legacies of this elven presence?
Partially related question: in your HHoI moon elves come from the Yuirwood to establish Larlotha in -6850, that's 100 years after the arrival of star elves in the Yuirwood and 250 years before the establishment of Yuireshanyaar, this makes me suspect that the moon elves left on purpose after the religious struggle between the Seldarine and the Yuir gods that we can glimpse from the pages of The Simbul's Gift. So the moon elves left the Yuirwood to preserve their identity and affiliation to the Seldarine while the star and wild elf embraced the Yuir pantheon and the Yuirwood, thus becoming "lost" to the Seldarine. Did you have something similar in mind when you set that date in HHoI, if not, may i ask what made the moon elves move in bulk from the Yuirwood in a time when the forest was relatively peacefull and full of other elves?
Thanks! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 06:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Partially related question: in your HHoI moon elves come from the Yuirwood to establish Larlotha in -6850, that's 100 years after the arrival of star elves in the Yuirwood and 250 years before the establishment of Yuireshanyaar, this makes me suspect that the moon elves left on purpose after the religious struggle between the Seldarine and the Yuir gods that we can glimpse from the pages of The Simbul's Gift. So the moon elves left the Yuirwood to preserve their identity and affiliation to the Seldarine while the star and wild elf embraced the Yuir pantheon and the Yuirwood, thus becoming "lost" to the Seldarine. Did you have something similar in mind when you set that date in HHoI, if not, may i ask what made the moon elves move in bulk from the Yuirwood in a time when the forest was relatively peacefull and full of other elves?
Well, it's a tale of sadness and the insidious damage done to the elven psyche during and immediately after the Crown Wars. The first green elves came to the Yuirwood in -9800 DR and encountered the ancient Yuir humans at that time. These savage, nomadic humans had fled to the Yuirwood millenia before, fleeing the sarrukh of Okoth and taking advantage of the Yuir peninsula's natural geography to remain safe and isolated from external threats and other civilised races.
The meeting was not a friendly one. The green elves, themselves survivors of ravaged lands such as Miyeritar and Shantel Othreier, did not come to conquer but were unprepared for the hostility of the Yuir humans and their powerful connection to the Feywild. That connection was fostered by the Yuir gods, minor members of the Outer Circle of fey deities, but locally powerful due to their monopoly of worshippers in the woodlands. The humans were pushed away from the heart of the forest, mostly east to the marshlands (much bigger then and stretching across the peninsula neck, effectively cutting it off from the plateau to the east).
The green elves then turned their attention on the fey deities that still dominated and influenced the forests, calling on the power of the Seldarine and in time subsuming them into that pantheon. That subsumption came at a price however, for the fey were restless and fickle, and the elven gods contained them only with considerable effort. Accordingly, the Seldarine demanded and received oaths of blood and magic that bound the green elves, who now called themselves the Yuir, to the woodlands that they had decided to make their home.
To the north, other moon and gold elves fleeing the devastation of the Crown Wars had settled the forests that they named the Riildath, known now as the Forest of Lethyr and the Rawlinswood. Their conflicts with the humans (who in centuries to come would become the Nar) and the hobgoblins of the tundra caused consternation among some of their number, who had become sickened by the endless conflict and warring. As such, two small moon elven clans of Lethyr travelled south into the Yuirwood in around -8000 DR, not knowing that there was already an elven presence there.
There they were not immediately welcomed by the Yuir elves but a delicate detente was achieved, with some green elf clans intermarrying with the moon elves and teaching them the secrets of the forests, and the moon elves bringing the benefits of High Magic to the existence of the Yuir. This fragile arrangement was disrupted in -6950 DR with the arrival of the first star elves. These star elves had an affinity for the fey, just like the Yuir elves, and were quickly embraced by the green elves. Soon thereafter, the moon elves began to suffer subtle discrimination and occasional outright hostility from the newcomers. Marginalised themselves in the elven realms they had been living in prior to coming to the Yuirwood (most notably Siluvanede), the star elves were looking to create their own realm and subtly manipulated the green elves into putting pressure on the moon elves to leave the Yuirwood.
This conflict culminated in the Night of Bloodstones when three green elven clan elders were found ritually sacrificed and evidence planted to implicate the moon elf clans. The green elves rose as one to track down and slay all the moon elves living in the Yuirwood, aided and abetted by the magic of their star elf allies. The moon elves who survived the first savage assault were led to safety by Larlotha, clan elder and High Mage of House Maerndar, who sacrificed herself to create a portal that allowed the moon elves of the Yuirwood to flee the hungry blades and arrows of their pursuers.
And so it was that the moon elves fled to the Saerdath and formed the realm of Larlotha in honour of their saviour. The green and star elves of the Yuirwood would form their own realm of Yuireshanyaar a short time later (as elves reckon such things) only for the star elves to betray their green elven brothers in -699 DR by abandoning them and fleeing to Sildeyuir. The departure of the star elves would spell the doom of the Yuir green elves, but that is a tale for another time.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2015 : 15:24:12
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Wow. Awesome lore, but it really paints the star elves darkly. Not that any of the elven subraces are innocent or cosmopolitan. All of elven history provides a lot of support for any culture that hates elves.
Is there one family/clan among the star elves, like the Vyshaanti gold elves, who are primary motivators for this amoral "racism" against other elves?
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 28 Mar 2015 15:27:16 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 03:30:48
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I know it sounds "dark" but it was really about dealing with the ongoing problem of the star elves being a minority in practically every elven realm. Despite reaching positions of power on an individual or noble house basis, they never wielded real power as a collective and felt that the gold elves ostracised them and the moon elves lumped them in with the insular gold elves and hence avoided them. They felt the most affinity with the green elves (due to their strong ties with the fey) but found that the wild elf attitude to the Art and arcane magic to be problematic to maintain strong and long-lasting ties. Hence, they weren't "racist" and didn't consider themselves superior to the other elven races (like the gold elves), they just felt that they were the "poor country cousin" and given short shrift time and time again. In that regard, from almost the earliest time of their existence as a distinct elven sub-race, they have yearned for a realm dominated and governed by star elves for star elves.
The leading star elven house was Lamavarith, which departed Siluvanede in circa -7350 DR during the reign of Tavaril "the Proud". They headed east to first Elven Court and then finally the Yuirwood. In that time, the Lamavarith gathered together other star elf clans and families that had scattered during the Wandering Years from around Faerun.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 29 Mar 2015 03:32:27 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 06:12:19
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I don't mean to pick a fight; I'm all in favor of filling in gaps and knitting lore together. The star elves just come off (to me) here as manipulative and genocidal. Not rising to the level of the Vyshaan or Ilythiiri, but no less deserving of disgust. Not sure if they deserve the nilshai or not; that might be going too far. Or it might not.
But I don't want to blow up all over your story. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 08:04:31
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Umm, manipulative - yes. Genocidal? Why?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 16:30:06
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It would be unfair to call all of them genocidal (or even manipulative) but the individuals who were "in charge" certainly were. But given that they deal with the world in racial terms it's fitting that they be talked about in the same terms.
Manipulating someone to kill someone is just as murderous as killing them yourself... it just adds some cowardice to the mix.
They manipulated the green elves (as a people) to first subtly and then openly reject the silver elves (as a people)... and then, when that wasn't effective enough, they staged a blood sacrifice of three green elven elders and framed moon elves, in order to instigate open warfare and a feud that will undoubtedly survive as long as either of the victimized peoples?
That's right up there with your next door neighbor befriending you, then manipulating your wife into murdering you and your kids, then skipping town, leaving her to deal with the other neighbors' suspicions and whatever police investigation might be brought.
After making the decision to take the Yuirwood away from the resident elves by whatever means necessary, and causing X number of murders and untold suffering to those kinsmen under the guise of being their allies (or at least under a facade of tolerance) they created their homeland elsewhere. Who literally committed the murders is irrelevant; the star elves are guilty of genocide -- "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation." It was deliberate and racial.
Peoples aren't just peoples. Races are made up of individuals, who can be fantastic or horrible or a frustrating porridge. It sounds like some/all star elves rejected their kin based on racial lines, without much/any regard for individuals who might have had the same feelings about elven politics/history/magic that the star elves did.
These star elves (the individuals who came up with these plots and manipulated others into carrying them out) are antisocial mass murderers.
My humble apologies if I've completely misread. Just how it comes across to me. I'm a bit of a crusader for "your rights end just before they infringe on someone else's rights" (which makes being an American a bit stressful) so I might be trigger-happy. 
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2015 : 23:29:40
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Fair enough. What I'm trying to work out is what you think of the lore I ... *ahem* ... made up. Truth be told, you seem somewhat angry and upset about it. You must hate reading history books ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 01:35:39
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My bad. I meant, earlier, that it's awesome lore, in the sense that it's consistent with the elven lore we have in other sources. It's not clear that you made it up, rather than summarizing it for a scribe who didn't have a published source that you have. The quality is at least equal... the fact that you're filling holes created/left elsewhere, which previous authors didn't have time/clearance/motivation to do, is extra awesomeness. It's like getting an epilogue or foreword to the earlier books. I gather that you've been doing a lot of this, and I have to dig in one of these days. The fact that I will have to find a bunch of old published sources and then read your lore in order to pick out where theirs ends and yours starts... I think that's the best work any Realms fan can do.
I'm just bothered by the details of the story itself. I wouldn't ask you to change anything, even if I were presumptuous enough to ask people to change their work; it's good work and it fits. I was just holding out hope that the star elves were different. I instinctively like elves, but I hate most of the Realms' elves. The Srinshee seems decent, but we don't have many stories involving her and she wouldn't be able to redeem her entire extended race. But it wouldn't really make sense if the star elves were different, so it would be a hollow pleasure even if we had a single subrace that wasn't deserving of "leave or die" banishment from Faerun.
This exchange has made me aware of something about how I read the history books, though... and yea, I definitely do hate some of history. I read it as "star elves did this" and "star elves felt this" when any reasonable/rational person (everyone other than me?) reads "someone in power among the star elves did this" and "influential star elves felt this." So while I somewhat defensively stand by the statement that elven history --not just what you've written here, but all of the published elven history too-- makes elves sound evil, depraved, racist even against their own kind which is a special brand of messed up, and thoroughly deserving of extinction.
Not all Americans are proud of the way we've historically treated Native Americans, Africans, women, the elderly, Muslims, the LBGT community, and others -- we mistreat and murder our own kind too! In fact it's probably the case that statistically, most of us hate it. Politicians have split us up into oddly shaped voting districts and diluted our votes with the electoral college so that our voice can be massaged to say whatever they want us to say.
I guess I'm saying, if I could have my way... the heinous things would be traced to individuals, so that we can say this guy right here hated the moon elves, and this one decided to use the green elves to get rid of the silver elves, and this one developed a mass charm high magic spell that compelled the green elves to go along with it in spite of it alienating them from their friends, neighbors, lovers, and children, and it was this one who murdered the three elders and kicked off a war of terror and tears that made the silver elves scatter and lose their homes and loves.
That isn't consistent with existing presentations of history. History chapters, even when they're long, sometimes seem to be rushed and short on some of the details that would help us sort our reactions to the story. Kudos to the Ruins of Myth Drannor for naming the nycaloths -- I still remember reading those names the first time. Cormanthyr gave us the Vyshaan clan, giving us a more specific target than just hating all of Aryvandaar... it creates a door, behind which we might find good in Aryvandaar; drowned out, maybe, and certainly overbalanced, but possibly there. If it's taken another step, to naming individuals in the clan who set the whole nightmare into motion and made "everyone" go along with it, then there's room for writing about opposing voices even within the Vyshaan family.
Yah, the room is there anyway... but the prompt to write those stories is more clear when fingers are pointed and names are named. When it's clearly individuals who are doing the evil, then the rest of the race can be basically okay.
All just my opinion.
Except the "awesome lore." That's not opinion; that's fact.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 30 Mar 2015 01:43:11 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 01:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
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I guess I'm saying, if I could have my way... the heinous things would be traced to individuals, so that we can say this guy right here hated the moon elves, and this one decided to use the green elves to get rid of the silver elves, and this one developed a mass charm high magic spell that compelled the green elves to go along with it in spite of it alienating them from their friends, neighbors, lovers, and children, and it was this one who murdered the three elders and kicked off a war of terror and tears that made the silver elves scatter and lose their homes and loves.
That isn't consistent with existing presentations of history. History chapters, even when they're long, sometimes seem to be rushed and short on some of the details that would help us sort our reactions to the story. Kudos to the Ruins of Myth Drannor for naming the nycaloths -- I still remember reading those names the first time. Cormanthyr gave us the Vyshaan clan, giving us a more specific target than just hating all of Aryvandaar... it creates a door, behind which we might find good in Aryvandaar; drowned out, maybe, and certainly overbalanced, but possibly there. If it's taken another step, to naming individuals in the clan who set the whole nightmare into motion and made "everyone" go along with it, then there's room for writing about opposing voices even within the Vyshaan family.
Yah, the room is there anyway... but the prompt to write those stories is more clear when fingers are pointed and names are named. When it's clearly individuals who are doing the evil, then the rest of the race can be basically okay.
All just my opinion.
Except the "awesome lore." That's not opinion; that's fact.
I hear you here. When something bad happens on a large scale, you can't really expect the common people to be behind that, it is far more likely to have a group of few powerful and influent individuals pulling the strings (and often brainwashing/manipulating the masses, in order to be able to do their thing). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 01:54:32 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 02:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I hear you here. When something bad happens on a large scale, you can't really expect the common people to be behind that, it is far more likely to have a group of few powerful and influent individuals pulling the strings (and often brainwashing/manipulating the masses, in order to be able to do their thing).
True, but in the Realms we have the drow, where non-evil alignment marks someone for sacrifice. I'm not saying the star elves come off sounding like the drow, but they are related and when the subraces are talked about in general terms --like they are in most elven timelines-- it makes all of elfdom sound like it has some similarities. History, as it's been written, gives several elven subraces common ground with the drow.
And the "gosh, we feel so terribly wounded by that time that we don't want to talk about it" is questionable. It's easy to believe, because it was heinous and it deserves to be regretted... but there remains the fact that they did it, and they did it over and over for thousands of years, and the only reason they sorta-kinda stopped was the annihilation of the clan that started the whole mess. Even after the Crown Wars were over, we still see mass murder on the menu as a way of getting what you want.
And when history paints entire subraces with broad strokes it comes out sounding like the Crown Wars is evidence of who the elves really are, and all the years when they're not currently murdering everyone they see is just recovery time.
Also, the existence of the Eldreth Veluuthra is not doing them any favors.
This isn't meant to be an "elves are evil, kill them all" rant. I don't think Ed meant for all the elves to be evil... if he did, Elminster wouldn't have a bunch of elven friends. I don't think designers intend for all the elves to sound like drow... the separateness of the drow loses power when there are similarities.
I'm just advocating that the lion's share of the evil be attached to individuals, making it clear even to blockheads like me who just read the text without inserting all the implied parts that these races are decent overall, with dark blotches here and there and a few grossly evil parts... just like humans on Earth.
Because after reading a story about "elves" doing grossly evil things to each other, it really starts to sound like "elves" are grossly evil.
Apologies for the wordiness. I know I need to work on that. The anger, too.  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 02:44:47
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I'm also advocating for the lion's share of the guilt to be attached to individuals or groups, but that already is the case (well, sort of), if you look closer.
Even in the case of the drow, you could easily point out the influence of Lolth and her lackeys and their ''laws'' on the people who are born and grow there. Even in Ilythiir, do you really think that the random commoner was a warmongering wielder of dark powers, or that a lot of their mages and priests were the ones who created the various messes (not to mention that you also have the ''drow'' of Miyeritar)? When they -as a whole race- were cast down by the Seldarine, they found guidance in Lolth (since Eilistraee had been ''nerfed into the ground'' by the Dark Disaster) and she had all the time to set up their life and society and enforce it through her pawns. The existence of Eilistraee and her followers is also a proof that it is not the ''race'' as such.
The same thing goes for elves and the Crown Wars -- at the end of the day, the people who have major powers and influence tend to be the ones who are behind the major stuff that the race is known for, if they happen to be bad things, the race could come out with a grossly bad -but inaccurate- reputation.
You said it very well, it is just like humans on Earth. I've seen people believing that the population of some war-torned or warmongering countries is generally ''evil'', for a lack of a better word, and that is simply, obviously false (and at the end of the day, elves or what you have are just reskinned humans with different cultures -and/or exacerbated and frequent human traits-, they are never truly alien). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 02:51:39 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 04:18:28
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Well this sent me off on a tangential rant, but I think I need to stop hijacking George's thread so I'll put it somewhere else.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm also not trying to ask you, George, to do more work. It's just a "wish list" kind of thing. It's my responsibility to insert the implications in the proper places as I'm reading, and I can add specifics for my own games if I feel the powerful need. The most important part is having a cohesive and believable story, and you're constantly giving us that. Thank you! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 11:34:39
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No hijacking at all. I agree and accept everything both of you have commented on. And yes, the star elves as a whole are not "bad elves". I gave you the broad brush strokes version. In a little while I'll give you the detailed version - I'm moving house at the moment and time is scarce. Oh and by the way, keep the comments and questions coming: I do enjoy them so..
-- George Kraahos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Mar 2015 11:35:21 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 14:58:33
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Uhm well, my questions spawned an interesting discussion, i admit i was kinda taken aback by this tale of star elven treachery but it was more of a "them too?" moment. After some time reading and rereading it i can see how it is perfectly in line with elven lore and how i can even empathize with the star elves here (i mean, it's easy for the moon elves to always pin every elven misdeed to the sun elves, but the fact of the matter is that moon and sun elves always represented the elite of almost every elven realm, so if the elite messed up the moon elves were responsible too and since elves hold grudges i can perfectly see the star elves plotting with some sort of "it's payback time" attitude).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
This conflict culminated in the Night of Bloodstones when three green elven clan elders were found ritually sacrificed and evidence planted to implicate the moon elf clans.
This was probably the biggest surprise of the whole story. Ritually sacrificed? What sort of rites did the Seldarine have this moon elves do that responsibility for someone ritually sacrificed could be pinned on them? I have a very low opinion of most things elven but i would be hard pressed to attribute a ritual sacrifice victim to some surface elven subrace, even with lots of proofs backing it up. Either the moon elves weren't completely clean or the star elves did an impressive propaganda job in just 100 years (a very short time by elven standards i suppose).
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The departure of the star elves would spell the doom of the Yuir green elves, but that is a tale for another time.
Argh! This is evil!
But i'll wait for any other information you are willing to share, on this topic and on my Grey Forest questions, because, as always in this thread, everything is pure gold. Thanks for taking the time! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 20:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont suppose you had any thoughts about children of the "Chosen" (i dread to use the term, but i can't think of anything else that suitably describes a person infused with deific power) of Jergal.
Demi-power or quasi-power maybe?
Anyhoo semantics aside, that is a great follow up question, would love to hear more from George on this and any other easter Eggs he has bouncing around his brain and/or hidden on his computers hard drive!
More lore on the North would be appreciated as well (am sure the North Timeline needs expanding with more Lore to round out the single entries!!)
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Questions for George Krashos
