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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 06:15:21
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@Hidden Lord: I'll get back to you. Lots of stuff to think through.
@Dalor Darden: A "Ruins of Tethyamar" product has always been a secret dream of mine, although I'm not so naive as to think that I could actually write such a product with the job/time pressures I currently am under. I lack Ed's brilliance, Steven's conceptualisation skills and Eric's energy to ever write a full-fledged product. I'm good for "bits" ... which reminds me that I have a few to deliver to Eric this weekend.
Dwarves are my secret passion. Tolkien's take on them first stirred my imagination, and FR11 remains pretty much my favourite Realms product of all time. I'd love to see more in-print lore and info on them and hope that some of the "lesser subjects" will get a bit more love in the 5E Realms. We've done elves and drow to death and back. Time to let some other races shine.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 22:58:44
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| George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 23:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?
Accidental double post? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 00:27:42
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@Hidden Lord - some of that was covered in the novel Frostfell, by Mark Sehestedt. It appears they started out with a druidic culture, but then were 'corrupted' by captured demon-binders (at least one, anyway).
So it looks like they went from a powerful nature-based type of magic and culture to something more mechanical, but that appears to have been a very late development*, so it was probably due to one of those 'military escalation' things. Both Raumathar and Narfell were Imaskari survivor states, and it stands to reason much of that knowledge was gleaned from their heritage . The Imaskari were called 'artificers', which means they were builders of arcane devices, which would have included automatons, and they were also consummate summoners (due to their knowledge of of the planes). Narfell & Raumathar choose to follow different paths, but they both had access to the same teachings.
Hopefully, someday George will be given the opportunity to string all the random bits together in an official product - there is a fascinating story going on there.
*I say this because their war machines are not even mentioned in the Frostfell novel, so that must have occurred after their initial slide into more insidious pursuits (which is covered by the novel). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2012 00:28:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 21:14:01
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Hey BUUUUUDDY...
LOL - you know when someone starts off that way they are going to ask for something. 
I need a run-down on the inter-relationships of the Uthgardt/Rengardt and whatever other barbarinas were running around in the North at one time or another (like the Reghedmen, Snow people, Gur, Traell, Ice Hunters, Eraka, etc)
Maybe to keep it simple, just the relationships of those first two with the Netherese.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 02:48:54
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You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but where is the reference to "Traell" from?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 05:52:17
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Its the name of the (rather primitive) tribal folk living around the Hartsvale area. The name was used in the Giant among Us novel by Troy Denning.
It could possibly be a giantish word for the Ice Hunters.
You, ignorant? Thats a laugh.
Very few people make me feel 'FR inadequate'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Oct 2012 05:53:25 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 12:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?
The horsemen of Raumathar were vassals of Imaskar for a lengthy period and to describe them as "nomadic, hunter-gatherers" is incorrect. To give you both a fantasy and real world touchstone, they were more "Rohan" than they were "Sioux".
In terms of magic use, the Raumathari were not big creators of magic items, but enthusiastic magpies, stripping Imaskari outposts and settlements of much of their useful magic and sending expeditions into present-day Murghom and a few even into Raurin itself seeking even more.
Sorcery was "in the blood" as it were, and it is thought that the clans and tribes that were given leadership positions under the aegis of the Imaskari were chosen for this talent. The origins of this magical legacy is thought to be the great dragon kingdoms of millennia past, and there is evidence in some still-existing draconic artifacts [in the archeological, not magical sense] of at least one dragon kingdom in the area where humans were slaves to draconic rulers. The most notable of these is Gaerthalin's Skull in the Spiderhaunt Peaks, named for the human explorer who first brought word of it to the lands of the Inner Sea in the early 1300s DR, but known to locals for centuries as Argartarl, the "Dragonhead" in a local tongue.
Gaerthalin's Skull is the petrified skull of a great copper wyrm, etched with draconic runes and seemingly a record of a now lost dragon kingdom that existed in the region before the Crown Wars. The remaining runes - for the elements have erased much of its surface - do not name the dragon ruler of this land (thought by some to be 'Kerlathar' and others 'Dyarlintul' - both names are found on the skull, but without context) but a section gives details of his servants and the rare gift of magic that was sometimes granted by the ingesting of some of his blood.
In the time of Raumathar's conflict with Narfell, there were two "watershed" moments that created and contributed to the legend of their storied "battlemages".
I note that "battlemage" is a clumsy term, first fostered by the scholar Galros of Candlekeep, whose field of study was the lands east of the Inner Sea. Galros was a painstaking and thorough archeologist, but his linguistic expertise was less than stellar. He derived the term "battlemage" from the word "tarannaerl", which was one of the Raumathari terms for its warriors. While "tar" was indeed "battle" in the Raumathari tongue, and "naer" was a word for "user of magic", the term in fact is better translated as "magically enspelled (naerl) battle champion (taran)" and was used specifically for the elite warriors handpicked and trained to infiltrate Nar strongholds and shatter their wards and bindings so as to unleash demonic servitors on their erstwhile masters. It is known that a team of tarannaerl managed to gain entrance into the Citadel Of Conjurers in the last days of the Great Conflagration, undoing many of the spell wards there and making the place untenable for humans thereby robbing the Nar of a last great bastion in which to make a final stand.
The first watershed moment was the accession of Vayloss as Arkhan of Raumathar in -605 DR. Vayloss was a powerful sorcerer and the first to actively harness this talent in his people. He established "elanaer", which were the Raumathari equivalent of wizard schools where sorcerous talent was identified in the young and fostered and refined. Over time, the "elanaer" divided along elemental school lines, creating four separate groupings devoted to fire, earth, air and water respectively. The "elanaer" were responsible for training mages for battle and created a cadre of spellcasters who were fit and ready for military service in times of war.
The second watershed moment was in the reign of Tallos II, when an Imaskari trove of construct magic and spell lore was discovered in the Shalhoond. Thought to be the work of a cabal of wizards led by the Artificer Wardde, this gift of magic was embraced by the Raumathari and for the first time in their history, the organised study of magic was promoted. The wizard class flourished and grew in this period throughout the kingdom and much in the way of resources was devoted to this specialised area of wizardry. The construct army that were built in the reign of Tallos IV only just failed to give Raumathar victory in the Great Conflagration, when it was unleashed upon the armies of Narfell.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 22:19:00
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Great lore, Krash - I'll have to add all of that to my 'History of The Taan'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 00:11:30
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| Awesome stuff! It gives me far more insight into exactly how the Witches came to be as well! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 02:29:04
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| very nice! :) |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 20:46:47
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Woah, George, wow! Just came up on this recently, great stuff!
Has someone compiled this thread for ease of download yet!? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 22:18:24
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Great stuff, indeed! Thanks, George. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 13:43:04
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| Checked the site, no PDF compilation of this but I thought I read someone had one...? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 04:22:49
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| I have a WotC account, but I don't go on that site much, and still being somewhat new to this site, I'm wondering: does WotC see the context of these forums? I want to share my thoughts, but it would feel kind of weird to me to post the same thing on both sites. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 05:15:37
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My understanding is that people from WotC do check out Candlekeep from time to time. More so I think in terms of gauging the fanbase on developments in the setting and what people "want" rather than looking at the fan-created lore that can be found here.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 05:20:06
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| All right, thank you for the information and prompt response |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 18:19:56
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
George, what was one, or were some, of the arcane breakthroughs or milestones that lead to the Raumvari cultural revolution that lead them from nomadic, hunter gatherers to reknowned battle-mages?
The horsemen of Raumathar were vassals of Imaskar for a lengthy period and to describe them as "nomadic, hunter-gatherers" is incorrect. To give you both a fantasy and real world touchstone, they were more "Rohan" than they were "Sioux".
In terms of magic use, the Raumathari were not big creators of magic items, but enthusiastic magpies, stripping Imaskari outposts and settlements of much of their useful magic and sending expeditions into present-day Murghom and a few even into Raurin itself seeking even more.
Sorcery was "in the blood" as it were, and it is thought that the clans and tribes that were given leadership positions under the aegis of the Imaskari were chosen for this talent. The origins of this magical legacy is thought to be the great dragon kingdoms of millennia past, and there is evidence in some still-existing draconic artifacts [in the archeological, not magical sense] of at least one dragon kingdom in the area where humans were slaves to draconic rulers. The most notable of these is Gaerthalin's Skull in the Spiderhaunt Peaks, named for the human explorer who first brought word of it to the lands of the Inner Sea in the early 1300s DR, but known to locals for centuries as Argartarl, the "Dragonhead" in a local tongue.
Gaerthalin's Skull is the petrified skull of a great copper wyrm, etched with draconic runes and seemingly a record of a now lost dragon kingdom that existed in the region before the Crown Wars. The remaining runes - for the elements have erased much of its surface - do not name the dragon ruler of this land (thought by some to be 'Kerlathar' and others 'Dyarlintul' - both names are found on the skull, but without context) but a section gives details of his servants and the rare gift of magic that was sometimes granted by the ingesting of some of his blood.
In the time of Raumathar's conflict with Narfell, there were two "watershed" moments that created and contributed to the legend of their storied "battlemages".
I note that "battlemage" is a clumsy term, first fostered by the scholar Galros of Candlekeep, whose field of study was the lands east of the Inner Sea. Galros was a painstaking and thorough archeologist, but his linguistic expertise was less than stellar. He derived the term "battlemage" from the word "tarannaerl", which was one of the Raumathari terms for its warriors. While "tar" was indeed "battle" in the Raumathari tongue, and "naer" was a word for "user of magic", the term in fact is better translated as "magically enspelled (naerl) battle champion (taran)" and was used specifically for the elite warriors handpicked and trained to infiltrate Nar strongholds and shatter their wards and bindings so as to unleash demonic servitors on their erstwhile masters. It is known that a team of tarannaerl managed to gain entrance into the Citadel Of Conjurers in the last days of the Great Conflagration, undoing many of the spell wards there and making the place untenable for humans thereby robbing the Nar of a last great bastion in which to make a final stand.
The first watershed moment was the accession of Vayloss as Arkhan of Raumathar in -605 DR. Vayloss was a powerful sorcerer and the first to actively harness this talent in his people. He established "elanaer", which were the Raumathari equivalent of wizard schools where sorcerous talent was identified in the young and fostered and refined. Over time, the "elanaer" divided along elemental school lines, creating four separate groupings devoted to fire, earth, air and water respectively. The "elanaer" were responsible for training mages for battle and created a cadre of spellcasters who were fit and ready for military service in times of war.
The second watershed moment was in the reign of Tallos II, when an Imaskari trove of construct magic and spell lore was discovered in the Shalhoond. Thought to be the work of a cabal of wizards led by the Artificer Wardde, this gift of magic was embraced by the Raumathari and for the first time in their history, the organised study of magic was promoted. The wizard class flourished and grew in this period throughout the kingdom and much in the way of resources was devoted to this specialised area of wizardry. The construct army that were built in the reign of Tallos IV only just failed to give Raumathar victory in the Great Conflagration, when it was unleashed upon the armies of Narfell.
-- George Krashos
Hey George,
Please understand before I start that I like a lot of what you wrote in the above. However, there's always room for improvement, so I'd like to take a moment and maybe posit some changes.
There was something more to the term Raumathari battlemage and the fact that their arcane casters were more militant. This can be seen in the Raumathari Battlemage prestige class. I'd recommend that it be that they developed some of the "alternative" classes we see in later 3rd edition lore (warmages, duskblades) and that the spellsword and eldritch knight prestige classes were more common.
I like the idea of the breaking into the separate schools of magic along the various elements. Given that their culture was one of iron workers rather than the bronze workers of the nearby Empires of Mulhorand and Unther (per Old Empires) they may have developed a fascination with metallurgy. The school of earth may have focused on this, or they may have followed more eastern lore like wu-jens and had a school for metal. With the fall of empire, this lore may have been lost. Similarly, they may have had a school of wood like the wu-jen. Given that the Raumathari weren't (that I see in any lore I've read mind you) especially fluent in the element of air, it would maybe make sense that they did break things down along those lines (earth, fire, metal, water and wood) rather than the traditional Western views. Or they could have had a blending of Eastern and Western views of elementalism and air was a 6th school.
Each of these "elemental schools" might have had a patron or patrons that were revered (Kossuth for fire, Grumbar or Chauntea/Bhalla for earth, Mielikki/Khelliara for wood, Istishia or maybe Chauntea/Bhalla for water, and maybe a deity LIKE gond for metal). Mystra/the Hidden One would be revered by most schools as well.
Also, perhaps some of the "elemental schools" were literally decimated in the great conflagration and that's why the witches of Rashemen that survived on "to preserve Raumathari lore" didn't have this subset of lore to pass on. For instance, the schools of fire and metal may have been destroyed... but survivors of the schools of water, earth, and wood (and possibly air) lived on. Perhaps some of the lore found in Thay came from old Raumathari school of fire ruins. Similarly, perhaps a lot of the construct and combat mage lore was found between the schools of earth and metal.
One of the things that always struck me as odd was how the Raumathari had these odd deity names compared to the rest of the realms. It makes me wonder.... did they have their own deities who were subsumed by Chauntea, Mielikki, and Mystra? Given that none of their nearest neighbors (Narfell, Mulhorand, and Unther) were worshipping Faerunian deities, this seems highly plausible that the Faerunian Pantheon was limited at the time to the Northwestern realms, west of the inner sea.
I do like the idea that the "battlemages" weren't necessarily wizard/sorcerors exclusively. I could definitely see the Tome of battle schools that taught
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 01:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
... but I do have a question for George while I'm here: I'm curious as to what you've been working on Realms-wise lately. Anything you can share with us?
Working on? Nothing of substance. My hobby predilections wax and wane over periods and my energies have been focused in other areas of late.
I'd long toyed with updating my Impiltur article for 4E but with the announcement of the next iteration, I've definitely shelved that project. I want to see where the Realms goes before I commit time and energy to further development work. I learned that lesson with my "Mantles" work which I finished on the cusp of the announcement of 4E ...
I do find that I need a kickstart though, so if anyone wants to ask any questions here about ... well, just about anything Realmsian, I'd be more than happy to do some weaving.
-- George Krashos
I would love your opinion on my Thay work once I'm finished with it. Point out where you think things can be improved, etc. No pressure though, if you don't have the time I understand. I'm about a third of the way through. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 04:36:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hey George,
Please understand before I start that I like a lot of what you wrote in the above. However, there's always room for improvement, so I'd like to take a moment and maybe posit some changes.
 No offence, but I'm just making this stuff up as I go along. Your 'improvements' are the stuff you are making up to go along with and side by side with my made up stuff. Mileages vary, as you know.
quote:
<BIG SNIP> of some very interesting points.
My first response is that I'm not a mechanics guy. In setting out my musings, I didn't once think about the Battlemage prestige class or what type of class battlemages might have been. That's stuff I care nothing about. I like to provide lore and flavour. To be honest, my post was more about fudging just what battlemages might be, than stating what they were. The discourse on the translation of "tarannaerl" was supposed to (obliquely) allow people to have wiggle room as to just what constituted a battlemage from a number of interpretations.
As to your comments re the "elemental schools", your observations and ideas are just as valid as mine. This is all fan musing, after all. But I like to keep things basic, so I go with the traditional view re what elementalist magic might be all about. You're free to come up with the variations you have, and they are just as valid.
The point you make about the gods is also an interesting one. I toyed a while back with mapping out the various pantheons of Faerun in a regional context and drawing comparisons and establishing cross-naming/worship of deities. That fell by the wayside when I decided upon my own unique take on FR deities, which is simply that the "individual" gods are akin to roper-like pseudopods from a central core of "godness" that is best and most simply described as Ao. Mortal worship draws out a line/thread of "godness" from this mass and gives it shape and purpose. It is the worship that shapes the god, not the god that shapes the worship. So someone in the middle of the Endless Wastes, praying for rain, might have that prayer answered. And along with that might come an insight into that deity and perhaps a name (that name being tied into something that the worshipper understands or has meaning to it/him/her) and an idea of what that "god" is all about.
This in my view better encapsulates the "god x was god y all the time" trope that has developed in the Realms of late (and which I am a huge fan of) and provides a better explanation as to why worshippers can be worshipping different "gods" but actually be worshipping the same "god". That same "god" is really a worship-driven manifestation of deific power and purpose, which is moulded and shaped by the worship that brings it into being. Over time, the deific "images" created by such worship will crystallize into what appear to be individual gods, so when people in an area pray for a good harvest, their worship is channeled to an entity that is best labelled as Chauntea. A thousand miles away, that same type of worship is channeled to the Earthmother. Yet another thousand miles away that worship is channeled into Bobo the Clown God. It varies and it depends.
So yes, I agree that the Raumathari religion may have worshipped "different gods" but when it's distilled down in my book, all worship of, for example nature stuff, is worship that draws upon the deific mass of godpower and godliness that is attuned to such worship and produces any number of deific responses (avatars, manifestations etc) that mortal worshippers attribute to "Chauntea", "the Earthmother" or "Bobo the Clown". As such, I've moved right away from anthropomorphising the gods. Those mortals who "become gods" (ala Midnight, Velsharoon and Kelemvor) aren't mortal as soon as they ascend. Their appearance, memories and experiences are taken over and used by the deific "god-mass". They are used as a conduit to project deific power and whilst retaining an outward appearance of independence (as all the individual gods do), they are nothing more than an outward skin for that conglomerate of deific, worshipper-fueled power.
Anyway, enough of my metaphysical BS. Thanks for posting sleyvas. As you can see, it made me think, as your posts always do.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 05:43:49
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
the "individual" gods are akin to roper-like pseudopods from a central core of "godness" that is best and most simply described as Ao.
Ao was Ghaunadaur all along. 
I think official Realmslore meshes well with the idea of Ao as a central godness. Kinda like the idea of a Source that's used in various non-d&d stories/films.
I like a lot of the ideas here... they shall be mashed and distilled... or slooped and blorped.
Thanks to both of you, and everyone else who hashes out their ideas on here. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 06:14:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
I would love your opinion on my Thay work once I'm finished with it. Point out where you think things can be improved, etc. No pressure though, if you don't have the time I understand. I'm about a third of the way through.
Happy to provide some feedback. Where can I find your "Thay stuff"?
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 05:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hey BUUUUUDDY...
LOL - you know when someone starts off that way they are going to ask for something.
You're lucky I like it when people ask me for Realms stuff.
quote:
I need a run-down on the inter-relationships of the Uthgardt/Rengardt and whatever other barbarinas were running around in the North at one time or another (like the Reghedmen, Snow people, Gur, Traell, Ice Hunters, Eraka, etc)
Maybe to keep it simple, just the relationships of those first two with the Netherese.
Okay, first things first, you are effectively asking me for a history of all human barbarians west of the Moonsea from the time humans first gathered into what could be described as "tribes" till about 500 or so DR. Big ask Markustay!
That said, much of the information you are after already exists, the majority of it gathered in GHotR.
What is clear from the outset is that apart from Netheril (and that is a special case in itself) the lack of any great human kingdoms in the North till the time of Delimbiyran, the Kingdom of Man, in the 600s DR means that significant human groupings manifested themselves as city-states (Ascalhorn, Slverymoon, Illusk et. al.) or as wandering tribal groups (Uthgardt, etc.).
That fact means that there wasn't really a significant amount of "interrelationships" between the humans of the North.
Going back to the "beginning" also presents some problems. If humans are one of the Creator Races, then they have been around for a long time. I've always been of the view that giants and dragons enslaved humans for millenia but the time of these great races was over by -24,000 DR or so with the advent of the First Flowering.
Netheril doesn't come into being until -3859 DR, so we essentially have a 20,000 year period when the history of humans is undetailed. I don't propose to fill that gap in here.
However, in the North geographical region, I'm of the view that humans (basically of Ulutiun stock) eked out an existence amidst all the 'big boys' (i.e. the dragons, giants, elves and dwarves) in isolated pockets throughout the great mountain range known as the Spine of the World. As the threat of the dragons and the giants receded (and correspondingly the threat from their greatest local competitor - the orcs - increased) these humans began a slow migration south from the mountains into more temperate lands.
Of these human groupings, the most well known are the Ice Hunters who clustered along the western coast of the Trackless Sea as south as the Neverwinter Wood (then the elven realm of Illefarn) and inland up to the site of present day Mirabar. The elves of Illefarn kept these humans in check but did not do anything to them other than prevent them coming into elven lands. If anything, the humans were 'penned in' in this region for the elven woodlands were much more extensive than they are in the present-day Realms and it is likely that the forests covered the entire area south of the Ice Lakes save for the region of the Crags.
It is also possible that other "Ice Hunter" human groupings clustered in areas where the elves and dwarves did not. As such, the Evermoors may have been the site of human habitation in those distant times also. As is obvious, humans were relegated to marginal lands.
To the east, the land was less wooded and mountainous and in these open areas - notwithstanding the everpresent danger of orcs and dragons - humans prospered. The taming of horses was the greatest achievement in this time and these humans became the Rengarth barbarians. I consider that all humans of this area were Rengarth, with offshoots from these tribal groupings who founded permanent and semi-permanent dwellings and engaged in agriculture becoming the precursors of the realms of Netheril and Thaeravel and no doubt a host of unknown others.
We have now reached recorded canon history. GHotR tracks the development of human civilisation from the time of Netheril to the present. The genesis of the Reghedmen is dated at -2,100 DR. The Traell of Hartsvale come to their lands in -325 DR.
The relationship of the Eraka, the barbarians of the Ride, and the humans of the North in very early times is not set out in the canon sources other than the comment in GHotR at p.10. I consider that as before, there were humans here who were enslaved by dragons and giants. Those that survived created tribal groupings and I consider that at least one grouping retained enough "civilization" from their likely former giant masters to take over and maintain the Citadel of the Raven fortresses (that they had likely built for their giant masters) for a few centuries before some enemy or cataclysm brought that realm to an end.
Survivors likely coalesced into nomadic barbarian tribes, which in the -400s DR or so received the gift of horses from Rengarth barbarians travelling west to escape the depredations of the phaerimm whose 'lifedrain' magics had destroyed the Narrow Sea and their ancestral grasslands. I note that "Races of Faerun" (p.108) states that the Ride barbarians had the Angardt as their ancestors while the Tunlar barbarians had the Rengarth as their ancestors. I consider that this is an error as the Netheril boxed set maps make it clear that the Rengarth were the northern tribal grouping, while the Angardt were the southern.
The Gur come into the equation last, and "Races of Faerun" at p.106 provides information as to how they arrived in the Heartlands from -200 DR. The exact mechanism of the move isn't set out, but I'm thinking that this was another portal migration.
I hope this has been helpful. If you are after anything else, let me know.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 05:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The relationship of the Eraka, the barbarians of the Ride, and the humans of the North in very early times is not set out in the canon sources other than the comment in GHotR at p.10. I consider that as before, there were humans here who were enslaved by dragons and giants. Those that survived created tribal groupings and I consider that at least one grouping retained enough "civilization" from their likely former giant masters to take over and maintain the Citadel of the Raven fortresses (that they had likely built for their giant masters) for a few centuries before some enemy or cataclysm brought that realm to an end.
Survivors likely coalesced into nomadic barbarian tribes, which in the -400s DR or so received the gift of horses from Rengarth barbarians travelling west to escape the depredations of the phaerimm whose 'lifedrain' magics had destroyed the Narrow Sea and their ancestral grasslands. I note that "Races of Faerun" (p.108) states that the Ride barbarians had the Angardt as their ancestors while the Tunlar barbarians had the Rengarth as their ancestors. I consider that this is an error as the Netheril boxed set maps make it clear that the Rengarth were the northern tribal grouping, while the Angardt were the southern.
My only thought contrary to what you have said here is that the humans could have had access to horses in the area of The Ride prior to the date you give. My reasoning being the elven civilizations to the west and south of the Eraka...and many Fey "relics" (meaning non-magical relics) hint at the Eraka having contact with Fey and/or elves as early as even prior to their "freedom" from Giant and Dragon masters.
All the other parts you have put together here though have given me a greater degree of clarity on the Eraka and their interaction with other groups than I had before! Thanks for the awesome "think" you shared here George! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 15:47:23
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That was great!
That helps a lot with some of my proto-history - Thanks.
My main concern (for what I am working on ATM) is the relationship between the Regardt, Angardt, and Uthgardt. Were these all Ice Hunters who 'evolved' into those clans (considering the 20K+ years involved)?*
I kind of know who/what the Uthgardt are, because that's spelled-out pretty clearly in the lore, but the differences between the Rengardt and Angardt is more subtle, and thus more confusing (plus, as you pointed out, we've gotten 'bad' info before). Do we even know if the proto-Netherese (people of Seventon) were even of the same racial stock as all the 'gardt peoples? Or were they Gur, as I suspect (and thus distantly related to the Raumvari racial groups)? I recall something about he Netherese survivors mixing with the Rengardt(?), but before that, there is no canon where the two groups are racially the same?
*I say 'evolved', but its more like history taking a natural course. Adversity breads adaptability, and adaptability leads to civilization-building. The groups of Ice-Hunters who (possibly) became the 'gardt (which could just be an ancient human word for 'horse') tribes went further inlaid and south, where they were forced to compete for resources, so they became more organized and a bit more civilized (I say 'a bit', because being more warlike then their ancient forbears, that's a matter of perspective). You seemed to have touched upon something that has given rise to a new thought of mine - the ('modern') Ice-Hunters retained their ancient culture and ways because the Elves had sort-of put them in 'preserves' (the way early European Americans put Native Americans on reservations). Because they were not faced with the adversity their wilder brethren were, they did not need to change much over such an immense span of time.
EDIT: Above I said "of the same racial stock as all the 'gardt peoples". My thinking on this is thus - the original Seventon people were of a particular racial stock (either indigenous or migratory), but as their empire grew it also grew to take-in peoples of other ethnicities (here I am thinking the 'gardt peoples of the north, and also the Talfir peoples of the south). By Talfir I am thinking the Land of Alabaster Towers - it doesn't make sense for them to have committed genocide on the entire population of Thaeravel. They would have killed the leaders and absorbed the population. I think this may have created an even more profound cultural line (caste-system) in Netheril - the people of 'low Netheril' were not of the original Netherese racial stock (whatever that may have been). The people living in the flying enclaves would have been 'above' the others, both figuratively and literally. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2012 18:34:38 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 11:54:24
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| It's not posted yet, sorry, I like to wait until I'm finished before I post. It will be in the "titles of Thay" scroll when I'm done. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 12:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That was great!
That helps a lot with some of my proto-history - Thanks.
My main concern (for what I am working on ATM) is the relationship between the Regardt, Angardt, and Uthgardt. Were these all Ice Hunters who 'evolved' into those clans (considering the 20K+ years involved)?*
I kind of know who/what the Uthgardt are, because that's spelled-out pretty clearly in the lore, but the differences between the Rengardt and Angardt is more subtle, and thus more confusing (plus, as you pointed out, we've gotten 'bad' info before). Do we even know if the proto-Netherese (people of Seventon) were even of the same racial stock as all the 'gardt peoples? Or were they Gur, as I suspect (and thus distantly related to the Raumvari racial groups)? I recall something about he Netherese survivors mixing with the Rengardt(?), but before that, there is no canon where the two groups are racially the same?
In all your excitement, you've fallen into the same trap I did when I first looked at this and thought I saw "SOMETHINGdt" human tribes. It's actually Rengarth, not Rengardt. I do think that the "dt" does stand for something. It might simply be "apostrophe s", in other words, Uthgardt is Uthgar's and Angardt is Angar's with a silent 'people' attached to it. Here in Australia, your Burger King franchise is called Hungry Jacks (no idea why). Most people just call it 'Hungrys'. Of course we also call McDonalds "Maccas" so it could just be my DownUnder way of thinking that has come up with that explanation!
Back to the discussion, it's difficult to say whether all of the humans of the North were Ulutiuns with varying levels of civilisation. Different racial groupings are usually the preserve of geographical barriers, and other than the Spine of the World, there aren't really many of those in the North. That said, the Realms has what our world never has had, which is competing races of an equivalent or more sophisticated level of civilisation.
So what is the relationship between the Rengarth, Angardt and Uthgardt? The last of the three is a mix of surviving Netherese wandering humans who merged with the Northmen of Uthgar to form the tribes that are known to the modern Realms. LEoF gives the important dates for that genesis, which I first bedded down in my long ago (now) North Timeline.
As for the Rengarth and the Angardt, the latter tribe was an offshoot of the former. As detailed in "The Winds of Netheril" (pgs.17-18), in -1382 DR the Rengarth exiled the Angardt (who were a faction of barbarians within the Rengarth) from the northern grasslands which previously had been both their homes, as the Angardt "threw off the shackles of the superstitions of magic use and began dabbling in magic".
The Angardt moved south, and in my view, with the creation of Anauroch, moved into the Tunlands and found a new home. There they founded the great city of Urdrath (see "Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast").
I'm not sure where you bring the Gur into the Netherese equation as the lore is pretty clear that they didn't get to the western Realms before -250 DR. That was after the fall of Netheril and the scattering of the barbarian humans who lived within its ostensible territory.
Of course, the social and political landscape of Netheril throughout its history is a total cypher. It is when trying to think of Netheril in those terms, that I curse that flawed product of all flawed products called the "Netheril" boxed set. I have the 6-page outline that Ed sent TSR back in the day, comprising his Netheril lore. It is a broad, sweeping document that highlights the importance of keeping the mystery of the realm alive and talks about its magic, gods and geography in the context of the bigger vistas of the Realms' proto-history. While it does allude to some social and political aspects of the Realms, these are not given much detail. I note also that much of this social/political commentary wasn't adopted by TSR in the final product. Quite simply, to this day, there is little or no information on how Netheril as a realm was governed (if indeed it was at all!) and by who and how.
Naturally, this makes it difficult to answer questions regarding the racial ties between the Rengarth/Angardt and what Eric Boyd and I termed Low and High Netheril in "Lost Empires of Faerun". I like your idea of the people of Thaeravel being subjugated and absorbed into the population of Netheril, but am not sure as to what level this occurred - again, Low or High.
Netheril is such a conundrum because the product devoted to it, pretty much treated it as existing in a human vacuum. The great joy of products such as "Cormanthyr" and "Empires of the Shining Sea" is that the history shows many realms, kingdoms and cities rising and falling and providing a historical narrative that makes the modern Realms believable for areas touched on by those products. "Netheril" did no such thing. There are no rival human cities or realms. The interplay between Netheril and the "barbarians" who appear to roam within her geographic borders, is undetailed. The contact points with the elves and dwarves are similarly broad, lacking in any realmslore specifics and couched in ways that make Netheril seem like a "Valley of the Lost" place (i.e. the Netherese 'search' for the dwarves of Delzoun (described as humanlike rock beings!) for 269 years, the elves of Eaerlann are creatures of "mere myth" etc. etc. - give me a break!).
So to conclude, I'm not sure I can add much more to your questions on the relationships between the barbarians of the North in the context of Netheril and its fall. That of course doesn't stop you from giving it a go. I'm more than happy to read your musings.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 09:38:03
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| I always suspected that the Reghed were the direct descendants of the Rengarth, due to their appearance, of course, and attitude of no acceptance of magic at all... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 Nov 2012 09:38:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 17:17:58
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The Ulutians are of an Oriental stock (or, at least, a mix). IIRC, that was first hinted at in the Kara-Tur material (a lost tribe of Issacortae), and was made canon in the GHotR.
The Traell are VERY simialr culturally, but are not described as Oriental (although would a giant even be able to tell the difference?) My supposition is this: The original Ice Hunters - those primitive humans that fell under the protection/guardianship of the Elves - taught their culture and ways to others, as new peoples were met and needed the Ice hunters survival skills. The Traell would have been a combination of native Ice Hunter and Netherese, and the Ulutians would have been a combination of Ice Hunter and Issacortae (although I think the Issacortae was already a mix of proto-Talfir and Haltai/Oriental stock). Thus, in the case of the Hartsvale people there was an actual mixing of blood, but in the case of the Ulutians it may have been more of a cultural thing (which even one tribe of dwarves picked up on).
As for the Gur, I picture a migration due to displacement in the Taan region. When the Haltai (aboriginal K-T peoples) learned of horsemanship from the ancient Raumvari (Gur), they began to spread inot the Taan and displaced the original culture there - that of the Raumvari. This may have even been helped along by the Imaskari, who may have driven their Taangan (Tuigan) minions out of the Plain of Horses in order to subjugate the raumvari 9hich they eventually did).
This meant the Raumvari would have been driven east, across the north-eastern portion of Faerūn. Some would have become sedentary, like the Rashemi, while others would have continued their nomadic lifestyle in harsher northern lands, in Narfeell and eventually on into the Moonsea lands (which were VERY different back then). The maps make for some very bad assumptions, because they should have changed dramatically over time (which usually isn't illustrated correcty), and also from edition to edition (the mountain range between the Taan and Rashemi & Thay was much more broken up, as per the 1e maps).
When the Tear fell in the Northeast, creating the Moonsea (presumably from the much smaller, previously-named Dragon Sea), this drove the migratory Raumvari (Gur) further west, and separated them from their eastern cousins (back in Narfell). Hmmmmm... come to think of it, 'Nar' is probably a mistranslated version of 'Gur' by the indigenous peoples who were themselves displaced by the Raumvari exodus out of the Taan (not sure which humans may have been there, if any... I'm thinking mostly centaurs, actually). Maybe centaurs can't pronounce the letter 'G'.
One of these days I have to work on that human migration patterns map I've always wanted to do. Unfortunately, I am beginning to come down off my Gencon high and am finding it hard to work on FR maps again. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2012 17:29:11 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 01:34:29
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Hey George, do you think the following would apply to the type of government in Impiltur:
Confederated Feudal Monarchy
Or something else? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Questions for George Krashos
