| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 06:58:31
|
Well met.
I was reading the War Captain's Companion and I have a couple of questions: aside from the WCC itself, where were the "Quad of Thay" and "Quentin Axan" (of "Quentin's Librarium") first written up?
I also have a rules question which is relevant to my (REAL) D&D game: if a ship is capable of being super-compressed or magically diminished or contained in some way (e.g. a folding boat, ship in a bottle, or a xiphoid xebec) can it also possess a major or minor helm? Can the helm be subjected to the same magical effect that affects the ship on which it is installed?
I would appreciate some assistance on these questions, please!
|
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 07:14:51
|
A Helm is an Artifact, and I do not believe an Artifact can be affected by another artifact, unless it was designed explicitly for that purpose (ie, an artifact designed to destroy other artifacts, as an artifurnace does).
I thought I remember reading somewhere once that a single person who carried two artifacts (that weren't designed to be used in tandem) ran the risk of a 'magical explosion', or some-such.
I also remember that Spelljamming Helms in particular were subject to special rules, in regards to other 'nautical' magics applied to them (although I couldn't possibly tell you where I read that; it's been so many years).
However, I also think this falls firmly in the realm of 'DM's Call'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2008 07:16:57 |
 |
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 07:34:38
|
| I know - doing so will destroy the Weave! Wait....nevermind. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 07:36:35
|
I don't think that major and minor helms are artifacts: the Arcane manufacture them. There is a device called an artifurnace which sucks power out of an actual artifact to which it has been attuned, but it is supposed to be even rarer than the artifacts themselves!  |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 07:42:53
|
In game terms, they were artifacts, because by definition, an Artifact is something the PCs can't create.
In 3e terms, they would be 'lesser artifacts' - something created by mortals with magics beyond most mortals (like 10th level, or High/Epic magic). Strangely, the Netherease, who were able to use 12th level magic, couldn't build a funtional Spelljamming Helm.
Perhaps it was because their magic was so tied to their Mythallars, or that a Helm built using the Weave wouldn't function in Arcane Space.
Who knows? I prefer Viking Longships with dragon-wings myself.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2008 07:43:51 |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
731 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 08:07:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Well met.
I was reading the War Captain's Companion and I have a couple of questions: aside from the WCC itself, where were the "Quad of Thay" and "Quentin Axan" (of "Quentin's Librarium") first written up?
"Quentin's Libraria" was first describes on p. 19 of the "Ships and Captains" booklet in The Legend of Spelljammer. The "Quad of Thay" had its first (and only) appearance in the War Captain's Companion.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I also have a rules question which is relevant to my (REAL) D&D game: if a ship is capable of being super-compressed or magically diminished or contained in some way (e.g. a folding boat, ship in a bottle, or a xiphoid xebec) can it also possess a major or minor helm? Can the helm be subjected to the same magical effect that affects the ship on which it is installed?
The descriptions of all those items dates from before the advent of the Spelljammer setting, so no rules regarding the helms were inserted. As far as I know (based on my little file of relevant Sage Advice answers), there's never been an answer to that question.
I have done some thinking about this myself, and I suppose there are three possibilities, depending on what you consider the mechanics behind the "folding" to be:
a) The folding is physical, non-euclidian. In that case, I would say that keeping any item (or living creature) in the boat would probably shred that item or living creature. Magical items would be allowed a saving throw vs. crushing blow. An item surviving will rupture the boat (unless, in the case of the folding boat, all items are small enough to fit inside the box...
b) The folding is the result of a size-reducing magical field. In that case, everything inside could be reduced along with it. In the case of artifacts or high-powered magical items, I would decide that "their kung-fu is stronger that the boat's kung-fu", and that they do not shrink along with it. They would be propelled outside the boat, which may result in physical harm to said boat.
c)The "folded version" (sword, bottle, box) is merely a key allowing the wielder to summon the real thing from an extradimensional space. Helm is affected, remains on boat. However, in that case, I would apply the rules for putting extradimensional spaces in other extradimensional spaces (portable hole in bag of holding, and vice versa... So, no leaving such items on the boat before it is sent back to its space.
Players may discover the mechanics behind "their" boat by research. Of course, there's nothing to prohibit the DM from deciding that boats have been created through all three mechanics (or even other ones...). Let the player characters have fun while discovering exactly which subtype their new toy is... |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
731 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 08:17:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In game terms, they were artifacts, because by definition, an Artifact is something the PCs can't create.
Heh heh heh... And we all know that if there's anything the PCs are not allowed to do, that's cause to forward the world a hundred years and issue a new edition of the game, right?
Depends on how you define artifacts, of course. Anyway, the Concordance of Arcane Space ("CAS")describes Major and Minor Helms as being "nearly (but not completely) indestructible. Their saving throws against all attacks are 2."
In the 1st and 2nd edition tradition, this would place them below artifact level - artifacts were usually impervious to almost all attacks, and required a special procedure to destroy.
With regard to artifurnaces - the way I read the CAS, they are not artifacts themselves, they only feed on them. Also, unlike normal furnaces, they do not permanently drain the artifact of its magic. The official rules do not mention if the artifact's powers are neutralised, through (like, for instance, a spellcaster who cannot cast spells while manning a helm).
And of course, they will always be rarer than artifacts, because you can only one artifurnace for each given artifact at most, and there are probably less (since not all artifacts have an artifurnace attuned to them)... |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 16:39:23
|
I'd disallow any alterations to a spelljamming helm, myself. If a folding boat was a summoning thing, though, I'd allow it to work.
I'd also say that a crown of stars could be bonded to a folding boat -- that nicely steps around the issue.
As for artifurnaces, since it says it contains their power, I'd assume that an artifact is effectively inert while in an artifurnace. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 22:30:41
|
Since you have to de-cloak to fire your weapons, would adding a second Helm to a ship alleviate that problem? 
Oops... sorry... wrong continuity. 
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2008 22:31:01 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 23:46:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Since you have to de-cloak to fire your weapons, would adding a second Helm to a ship alleviate that problem?
Oops... sorry... wrong continuity.
Actually, there is a cloaking helm... It was in an article Steven Schend wrote for Dragon 159. It basically made the ship invisible until it fired its weapons. One very nice touch was that the ship couldn't be seen, but the crew of the ship also had their visibility limited (which makes sense, because technically, an invisible person should be blind). I had two problems with the description: it wasn't specified if the cloaking helm was major or minor, and it stated that motive power was diverted to cloak the ship -- but there was no penalty to the SR.
I guess we could ask Steven about that, since it was his article.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
War Captain's Companion questions
