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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 15:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor
...I really need a 'sarcasm-smiley', but in the meantime, I guess this will have to do! 
Heh. I've been pushing Alaundo for a sarcasm-styled emoticon since '02. 
Some inspiration for that: HERE or HERE?
I'm not sure either are really applicable here. I'd prefer just a standard emoticon actually. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 15:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not sure either are really applicable here. I'd prefer just a standard emoticon actually.
LOL, I don't think this is the kind of place where we want giant, fiery fingers flipping the bird. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 16:26:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not sure either are really applicable here. I'd prefer just a standard emoticon actually.
LOL, I don't think this is the kind of place where we want giant, fiery fingers flipping the bird.
Indeed. It's bad enough that this first particular image has been used somewhat frequently as an avatar on some BattleTech sites I frequent. Apparently, these posters see it as a convenient way of expressing their displeasure about the Word of Blake Jihad.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 16:44:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm not sure either are really applicable here. I'd prefer just a standard emoticon actually.
LOL, I don't think this is the kind of place where we want giant, fiery fingers flipping the bird.
Indeed. It's bad enough that this first particular image has been used somewhat frequently as an avatar on some BattleTech sites I frequent. Apparently, these posters see it as a convenient way of expressing their displeasure about the Word of Blake Jihad.
I'd not seen it before, but it does seem reasonable for the Jihad. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 17:31:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I have the feeling that the next tidbit I have will generate the most ... *interest* so far:
1st Edition: 59% lore, 15% mechanics, 26% Adventure
2nd Edition: 74% lore, 10% mechanics, 16% Adventure
3rd Edition: 70% lore, 27% mechanics, 3% Adventure
4th Edition: 77% lore, 12% mechanics, 10% Adventure
Now, before you start in on the 1st Edition's statistics, I should point out that I judged any tidbit under "Game Information" to be mechanics, even if it didn't read that way. Due to the way 1st edition was structured, there really wasn't a lot of 'pure crunch' in the book, so I erred on the side of how the publisher labelled it.
And the 4E book really does not have much in the way of mechanics. So, even if the lore in the book isn't as high quality as the other products (MY opinion), they do spend a lot of time talking about it.
The 3E book is very high on mechanics, however, with the amount of feats, prestige classes and spells in the book.
The thing with the 4E one is that most of the 4E equivalent of Mechanics that are in the 3E CS (specifically, what concerns the players) are instead put in their own book (the 4E FR Player's Guide) whereas 3E crammed it all in one book (hence my thought on maybe combining those two 4E FR books).
Okay, since it's come up a few times, I did the breakdown statistics for the Player's Guides:
2nd Edition (PG2 - Player's Guide to Forgotten Realms):
- No poster map
- 8 regional/city/adventure maps
- 126 pages
- Approximately 60,000 words (average of about 476 words per page)
- 36% Lore, 64% Story (book was written as an adventurer's journal)
3rd Edition (Player's Guide to Faerūn):
- No poster map
- 1 regional/city/adventure map
- 191 pages
- Approximately 135,000 words (average of about 707words per page)
- 22% Lore, 78% mechanics (book was an 3.5 rules update to FRCS)
4th Edition (Forgotten Realms Player's Guide):
- No poster map
- 26 regional/city/adventure maps (again, most are thumbnail images)
- 159 pages
- Approximately 90,000 words (average of about 566 words per page)
- 46% Lore, 54% mechanics (this seems pretty light on the mechanics since this was supposed to be the 'rules' book)
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 24 Oct 2008 17:32:58 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 17:44:30
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Combined (Campaign and Player's) they Lore/Mechanics comes out like this:
1st Edition (no Player's Guide): 59% lore, 15% mechanics, 26% other
2nd Edition: 63% lore, 7% mechanics, 30% other
3rd Edition: 52% lore, 46% mechanics, 2% other
4th Edition: 66% lore, 27% mechanics, 7% other |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 18:10:01
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| So Lore is at the highest in 4E and Mechanics are strongest in 3E while 1E and 2E had a lot more other stuff like adventures then. Interesting. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 18:37:57
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| Kind of makes sense. In 1st and 2nd edition, campaign settings were meant to 'paint the picture' of the world you were visiting. By 3rd edition, most everyone knew the picture and, since customization was key to 3rd, they needed to put a lot more 'crunch' in the books. 4th edition, with the destruction of the picture, needed to fill in all the empty spaces they created. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 13:36:12
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I don't think it means much to compare the three books that happened to be called 'player's guides'. Only the new one merits the title. PG2 is an annotated long story, not really a guide to anything, a peripheral work produced when TSR was scrabbling to fill the schedule with Realms material. The 3E book is a rules update/miscellany, misnamed 'player's guide' because 'rules update' sounds boring, with material no more suited to players than DMs.quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
By 3rd edition, most everyone knew the picture and, since customization was key to 3rd, they needed to put a lot more 'crunch' in the books.
If only everyone did know the picture! We wouldn't be in the sad position we are now. Unfortunately, the essence of the Realms has often been submerged, too much left to inference rather than clarified for newcomers, and confusion as to its nature is common, if other online forums are anything to go by. |
Edited by - Faraer on 25 Oct 2008 13:43:02 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 17:06:50
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excellent break down of each addition lore vs mechanics Ashe. Seems like quite the project, you must have had a bit of time on your hands.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 05:55:52
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
excellent break down of each addition lore vs mechanics Ashe. Seems like quite the project, you must have had a bit of time on your hands.
Just a little... 
I should point out that the lore in the 4E Players Guide probably needs to be adjusted. I was writing up a character for Living FR for the 'Weekend in the Realms' this weekend and it occurred to me that most of the entries for the background areas were lore so much as 'roleplaying suggestions' for players.
And I must have really been in a state of shock when reading the books the first time to not notice that Wheloon has become home to Snake Pliskin wannabes... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 02:11:10
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| yeah, I was surprised with this as well. It does not fit my version on Cormyr and I have not added the prison town to my realms in 4E. |
Edited by - scererar on 27 Oct 2008 02:14:43 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 04:24:57
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I'm not sure it fits any previous version of Cormyr. That Spellplague sure changed a whole lot of things ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Magister Sunstrider
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2008 : 20:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Combined (Campaign and Player's) they Lore/Mechanics comes out like this:
1st Edition (no Player's Guide): 59% lore, 15% mechanics, 26% other
2nd Edition: 63% lore, 7% mechanics, 30% other
3rd Edition: 52% lore, 46% mechanics, 2% other
4th Edition: 66% lore, 27% mechanics, 7% other
That is interesting. I didn't realize 3E was so mechanically heavy, but it does make sense with the ruleset focus. However, 3E also consistently had the highest word count by your research, so that maybe why it didn't feel swamped with pure mechanics. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2008 : 06:09:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Magister Sunstrider
That is interesting. I didn't realize 3E was so mechanically heavy, but it does make sense with the ruleset focus. However, 3E also consistently had the highest word count by your research, so that maybe why it didn't feel swamped with pure mechanics.
-Oh yeah, sure. Most of the books, there's some racial stats, some items, feats, spells. Doing some research with Underdark, I never realize how mechanically oriented it was. It's still one of the best 3e-era books, I think, but, that goes so show how some of the books were able to attain an "optimum ratio" of lore and mechanics, I guess. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 03:45:52
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| Since 4e is semding the Realms the way of the dinosaur, my vote for 3e |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 06:53:34
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| Mine too. The hard numbers may be in 4e's favour for lore vs mechanics, but reading the books didn't feel like that to me. Maybe it was because of the historical disconnect from the previous editions and the reinvention of the wheel. Imho, roleplaying suggestions and adventure hooks aren't lore; they fit into that "other" category. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 12:24:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The hard numbers may be in 4e's favour for lore vs mechanics, but reading the books didn't feel like that to me.
"Hard numbers" doesnt really fit if you just take the sources Ashe gave. IMO we should add ALL the sources together which make up the campaign lore for an edition and not just the ones which dont really fit (PGtF was a rules update, so it only works together with the campaign description in other sources.). |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 20:50:00
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| Though what Ashe has done is impressive. I am sure that it took a lot of work and I don't want to belittle that. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
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* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
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* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 21:24:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The hard numbers may be in 4e's favour for lore vs mechanics, but reading the books didn't feel like that to me.
"Hard numbers" doesnt really fit if you just take the sources Ashe gave. IMO we should add ALL the sources together which make up the campaign lore for an edition and not just the ones which dont really fit (PGtF was a rules update, so it only works together with the campaign description in other sources.).
If you look at all of the editions, 2nd Edition will reign supreme just from sheer weight of all published material.
PGtF was a crunch book to update the rules, but it still included an update to lore regarding the Archwizards and Lolth's Silence. I put it out there because of the fact that each edition had a 'Player's Guide', although they changed what that book entailed in each edition. The 2nd Edition book was a novella with some 'lorefacts' thrown in, while PGtF was the 3.5 update. Only 4th made a book that would be defined as a Player's Guide by the standards of many other publishers. Since each edition had its own, and we're comparing editions, I thought it was appropriate to include them. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 06:10:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I put it out there because of the fact that each edition had a 'Player's Guide', although they changed what that book entailed in each edition. The 2nd Edition book was a novella with some 'lorefacts' thrown in, while PGtF was the 3.5 update. Only 4th made a book that would be defined as a Player's Guide by the standards of many other publishers. Since each edition had its own, and we're comparing editions, I thought it was appropriate to include them.
So, ah, what was the 1E player's guide? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 07:27:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I put it out there because of the fact that each edition had a 'Player's Guide', although they changed what that book entailed in each edition. The 2nd Edition book was a novella with some 'lorefacts' thrown in, while PGtF was the 3.5 update. Only 4th made a book that would be defined as a Player's Guide by the standards of many other publishers. Since each edition had its own, and we're comparing editions, I thought it was appropriate to include them.
So, ah, what was the 1E player's guide?
Slight nitpick:- The PG for 2e was titled PG2 Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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wannabesuperman
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2008 : 01:46:18
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I realize I've arrived a bit late to this particular party, but here goes.
The 3e FRCS was amazing. It was easily one of the best RPG books I've ever seen. It covered so much material, and was interesting all the while. I don't think any campaign guide will ever match up to that one.
The 4e FRCG is exactly what I want for the new edition, though. So much of the landscape that was already "claimed" or filled in with novels and lore is gloriously new and available for exploration. The 3e book is my primary resource for lore, even in the new edition. It's the treasure chest of adventure and quest backgrounds that every 4e DM needs.
In other words, I like the 4e book for running the campaign, and the 3e book for building the campaign. Every 4e DM needs both books, IMHO. |
"What's so funny about Truth, Justice, and The American Way?" --Clark Kent, Daily Planet. January 2001 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 06:25:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The hard numbers may be in 4e's favour for lore vs mechanics, but reading the books didn't feel like that to me.
"Hard numbers" doesnt really fit if you just take the sources Ashe gave. IMO we should add ALL the sources together which make up the campaign lore for an edition and not just the ones which dont really fit (PGtF was a rules update, so it only works together with the campaign description in other sources.).
If you look at all of the editions, 2nd Edition will reign supreme just from sheer weight of all published material.
PGtF was a crunch book to update the rules, but it still included an update to lore regarding the Archwizards and Lolth's Silence. I put it out there because of the fact that each edition had a 'Player's Guide', although they changed what that book entailed in each edition. The 2nd Edition book was a novella with some 'lorefacts' thrown in, while PGtF was the 3.5 update. Only 4th made a book that would be defined as a Player's Guide by the standards of many other publishers. Since each edition had its own, and we're comparing editions, I thought it was appropriate to include them.
I think your effort of making a statistic comparison between editions is doomed to be inaccurate for the simple fact that you cant quantify quality. Yes you can compare the printed number of characters, pages or so, but does that mean the one who has more characters is better / more informative? Not really. There is a saying of sorts for politicians: "Speaking without saying anything." and to a degree all written texts are filled with stylistic phrases and actual information. The ratio between the two is different, so a shorter text may contain more information compared to a longer.
If you want to "win" the statistics and numbers challenge just get the german translation, which usually is roughly 20% longer than the english version ... Many of the early novels from TSR that came out as german translations were actually split into two books (I have no idea how it is today since I dont read D&D in german). |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 22 Nov 2008 06:25:57 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2008 : 20:38:53
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| Especially because the most profound difference between the first campaign sets and later attempts is that Ed's prose (as edited by Jeff) is incomparably fuller with implied and hinted information and holographic meanings. They're cross-sections or outgrowths of a larger reality, not just abstractions of it, and conjure a coherent world in a way that the much longer, encyclopedic 2001 book does not. That work is more useful to the reader who already knows Faerūn's buzz, shadow and shape and doesn't have to derive it from the discordant mess. Whereas the 4E book recoheres all that blind information, minus the bits severed or ignored, into a new shape of its own. |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Nov 2008 20:47:19 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2008 : 07:26:47
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Oh, I know that there's no way to compare the quality of the books.
Then again, each one (except 4th, IMO) attempted to build on what was published before. Reading the 3E book, it read more like an update on the 2nd and 1st entries instead. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 02:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Bah, you young whippersnappers with your 3E vs 4E. I don't need a comparison to know the 1st-Edition Gray Box setting is better than anything which followed.
Preach it brother! Can I get an Amen?
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2010 : 17:17:22
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I feel the same as wannabesuperman. I've found so much opportunity in the 3e FRCS to enhance my 4e games that it works so well as a companion reference document. Espically when I need a small, off the road, town or info on a town that's not detailed in the FRCG such as Beregost or Nashkel(sp?).
The whole section before the New spells/PrCs in the book are gold for detailing the campaign setting.
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 13:00:27
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I'll pitch in with the '2e+3e+4e = greater than the sum of their parts' crowd: I DM 4e Faerun and love it, but I wouldn't want to be without the library of lore contained in previous editions (mostly 3e, in my case).
As for which one is better, I'll have to be awkward and boring, and go with 'it depends'. The 3e setting book has a lot more lore and much closer ties to previous editions, but 4e, I'd argue, focuses on gamey stuff and provides more blank space for homebrew material. That blank space also makes it easier to dump in all the old lore; something I haven't had any real through doing yet. |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 03:49:25
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I'd have to agree with Cleric Generic as to which one is better, it depends. I found the 3E supplement sooo rich with lore and a good balance of crunch thrown in that I reference it quite frequently, no matter what edition I'm using. The main problem I have is that its too saturated with information that I feel I can't do anything without stepping on toes, falling into a Lich's den, or offending some arch-wizard turned barkeep in every town, city, or hammlet.
The beauty of the 4e supplement is that it is vague when it comes to all the areas and what-not already covered by the previous source book. I like plugging in my own ideas, towns, NPCs, etc without having the problem of overlapping existing lore. And the 100 year gap really provides me with opportunities for unique backstories without having to really go into depth the history and canon lore if I don't want to. Of course, I can, but I enjoy that option.
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3e FRCS vs 4e FRCG
