| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 20:50:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Agreed... but was there something in particular you were responding to with that well-reasoned argument (even if the actions taken by others that inspired it were not well-reasoned)? [:)
That was in response to this -
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
The official line is that they aren't going to write ANYTHING about what happened during the Spellplague, so why keep it locked up? (except for that one quote I remember seeing where Cordell said he might... )
I say, unless they explicitly have a novel or article in the works, there shouldn't be an NDA on the information.
I was answering why I think the NDAs are still in place.
The more information we are given, the more the world's history gets filled-in. This is something they are now trying to avoid. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2008 20:51:50 |
 |
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2008 : 21:40:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That just ties their hands all over again.
Their hands will never be tied, since they can virtually do whatever pleases them, whether lore or logic defies it or not. Luckily enough, they keep it at a "certain" level.
I for one am not sure whether I really want to know the exact details of what happened inbetween, nor do I think it will be that helpful. Who will play there? Who will really want to know about it? Will those who do be enough - in the Wizards' eyes - to validate a novel or sourcebook? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 01:46:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm sure the timeline will slowly be back-filled in, by the novels, but it would be completely counter-productive for them to give us specific dates in source material.
Steven Schend's Blackstaff Tower is an excellent example of this. From what like tidbits about the Spellplague and the events that occured after, that are dropped into the tale, Sage Schend often explains a little of the history behind each occurence. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Oct 2008 01:47:41 |
|
|
|
shoonvii
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 05:31:49
|
I agree with the OP. As I made my way through the new FRCG, it got to the point where I could guess what the next region would be like:
let me see, the good guys lost at some point, and now a really bad guy rules the place. It kept happening over and over again to the point of being exhausting. It would be interesting to go through region by region and jot down how they've gone from hopeful to hopeless (or nearly so), but I don't have the time right now - maybe I'll get on that.
That being said, I'm going forward with the 4E Realms and making it my own. The stuff that is just plain dumb will be ignored or downplayed. |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 13:24:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oh, don't worry about *that* PDK, I've been a subscriber for months now.
Just wish Corporations wouldn't get involved with my HOBBY. 
Thats what we get for having a hobby that turns(or did turn) a nice profit.  |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 16:51:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Thats what we get for having a hobby that turns(or did turn) a nice profit.
It may well be that that time was the early 1980s, and ever since TSR and Wizards have tried to squeeze more money out of D&D than it can naturally provide. TSR with its inflated release schedules, multiplied campaign settings, staff and managerial indulgences; Wizards with its conveyor belt of powergamer-pandering rules supplements, faddish miniatures and Games Workshop-inspired product cycle. That 1980s peak and the wide recognition of the words 'Dungeons & Dragons' may have made certain people think D&D should be more of a money-spinner than it can really be without spending serious money to seriously increase the number of roleplayers, the one definitely positive thing I hoped would come out of the Hasbro acquisition but which never came to be.quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The big reason for the 4e blowup was too many people telling too many stories in the same place, and none of the ones whose voices were heard being willing to move to a new continent to tell new stories.
That was one of their less plausible stated rationales, which is saying quite a bit. Untold hundreds of stories like the Knights of Myth Drannor books -- the kind that fit the Realms and we'd get if the publishing line was true to the setting -- occur in the Heartlands in any given decade. The claim only starts to make sense if you read 'RSEs' for 'stories', and you know what I think of them. |
Edited by - Faraer on 20 Oct 2008 16:52:08 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2008 : 22:27:29
|
Yup - the plausibility level went right out the window during 3e (in the novels).
I know it's fantasy, but COME ON... at what point do the common people just say "forget it! I give up!". From Elven Crusades, to Flying Cities of Evil, to moons falling out of the sky, etc, ect...
It reads like a comic... and a REALLY bad one at that.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2008 22:27:46 |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 03:56:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yup - the plausibility level went right out the window during 3e (in the novels).
I know it's fantasy, but COME ON... at what point do the common people just say "forget it! I give up!". From Elven Crusades, to Flying Cities of Evil, to moons falling out of the sky, etc, ect...
It reads like a comic... and a REALLY bad one at that.
I have to respectfully disagree. It doesn't really matter what happens in fantasy (or fiction of any kind for that matter). What counts is how the characters and environments react to it. If "moons fall out of the sky" for example, and everyone shrugs and goes about their day, then it's implausible. However, if people fall to their knees and start praying for their very lives and huge tidal waves rock the shores and it changes the setting, then it's plausible. That's just how fiction works.
Take the original Star Wars for example - it's a big long soap opera with lasers and giant space ships and aliens and killer mutant monsters. But the world seems so realistic because of how the people within that environment react. Destroying a planet is ALWAYS ridiculous - and it remains as such within the context of the story.
As for FR...
EREVIS CALE SPOILER!!
When the Sojourner pulled the Tear from the sky for such a terrible, horribly egotistical reason, it had consequences for everyone involved. People's religions changed, their perceptions turned, the weather was altered, and the characters in general stared at a big empty hole in the sky in disbelief. That was such an incredible moment in the series for me - and one that was somehow, completely believable.
So I think FR does a great job of giving us fantastic events (in the traditional sense) and balancing it with real emotional and environmental give and take.
Except for the Spellplague.
That's just ridiculous.  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Patrakis
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 04:58:52
|
That is all well and good but many people tend to forget that FR is a fantasy GAMING world. It's to input our stories and adventure in so we can PLAY. At least that is why i chose to play in it and use it. RSE might be great from a novel point of view but for a GAMING perspective... it's conterproductive. Too many, too fast, too big events like this and you just give up following canon because it s screws the play experience.
My POV at least.
Pat |
Dancing is like standing still, but faster.
My site: http://www.patoumonde.com |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2008 : 07:32:53
|
I would definitely agree with that. That's why I feel so disconnected to the Realms right now...it seems like there's nothing familiar to hang on to because so much was obliterated - rather than merely changed like it was for 3rd edition.
For me, Faerun may as well be Middle Earth or Narnia - there's nothing to draw from anymore, it seems.
Maybe I'll feel different after a few novels come out. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 05:40:01
|
| I think that's what most people are hoping for, Arion. Knowing the sages of the realms though, I doubt they'll disappoint us. It may just take some readjustment. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
|
|
|
Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 17:42:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
I think that's what most people are hoping for, Arion. Knowing the sages of the realms though, I doubt they'll disappoint us. It may just take some readjustment.
After the treatment we have received from WotC in the past year, I fully expect them to continue to disappoint us. That is why I am working on collecting 3.5 books that I do not own and starting to try and collect 1e and 2e Realms products. When I finish with that, I will probably then start looking into the Pathfinder CS from Paizo, because they treat their customers like investments rather than ATMs. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
|
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 17:51:22
|
| pathfinder rocks |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Kamuraki
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 21:15:08
|
| I meant that I doubt the future novels will disappoint us. I'm trying to be optimistic, cut me some slack. |
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 22:08:47
|
| I'm relying on Paul S Kemp to take us out of the doldrums in December... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 09:40:52
|
It seems kinda interesting, and ironic, to me that there is a perception of a lack or loss of optimism in 4E, whereas a lot of people simultaneoulsy bemoan RAS's depiction of orcs as improving or rising in culture, sophistication, goodliness, etc. (Witness the recent scrolls on "Obould Karma" and "Bones and Stones" for examples of this.)
Is it truly a lack of optimism that is the cause for people's regret, or something else?
I know little of the new edition, but the "points of light" talk from earlier got me to thinking that the surviving communities post-Spellplague might just find themselves forced to work closer together now more than ever before, just to survive. While such coerced cooperation isn't pleasant, it could very well lead to things turning out better later on, eventually.
It reminds me of tales of hurricane victims hunkering down and then helping out their family and neighbors, in the face of all the damage and destruction. Watch even a little TV during/after a major storm like this, and you can tell right away that there's a big push to rally people's hopes and optimism, despite the darkness surrounding them. A lot of the reporting might seem like small-potato fluff, given the severity of the storm and its aftermath. But there seems to be a great deal of effort put into all of those tales of small victories, presumably because of the expectation that all the small victories might eventually add up to one big one. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 12:45:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Is it truly a lack of optimism that is the cause for people's regret, or something else?
I know little of the new edition, but the "points of light" talk from earlier got me to thinking that the surviving communities post-Spellplague might just find themselves forced to work closer together now more than ever before, just to survive. While such coerced cooperation isn't pleasant, it could very well lead to things turning out better later on, eventually.
Well thats the thing, isnt it? All the communities that still exist are constantly feeling the pressure from the monster infested areas around them. This is what causes an oppressive feeling which is the same for all of the Realms. There are no places left which are - more or less - SAFE and where you can just have fun ... everything is about combat and the opportunities for a social adventure are more or less gone. This has started with the basic 4e rules and the loss of the social skills already and shows the whole focus of the game is for the world to become one huge monster crawl. Some people simply dont like their roleplaying game to become Diablo and being denied the opportunity to simply live in the world is making it oppressive. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 15:08:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It seems kinda interesting, and ironic, to me that there is a perception of a lack or loss of optimism in 4E, whereas a lot of people simultaneoulsy bemoan RAS's depiction of orcs as improving or rising in culture, sophistication, goodliness, etc. (Witness the recent scrolls on "Obould Karma" and "Bones and Stones" for examples of this.)
I can't say I see what one has to do with the other, or how it's "ironic".
Also, orcs in general are NOT rising in culture, sophistication, and goodliness--just check their entry in the 4E MM.
quote:
Is it truly a lack of optimism that is the cause for people's regret, or something else?
For me, it's one cause, but not necessarily the only cause. That's really all I'm going to say on that subject, here.
|
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Oct 2008 15:18:35 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 15:45:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I can't say I see what one has to do with the other, or how it's "ironic".
Maybe this will help, then. The Orc King, with its tale of a peace treaty between goodly forces and the orcs, and its apparent role as helping to usher in the new edition, features repeated pronouncements that the orcs are a-changing, and that peace is viable with them. That's <optimism>. This seems to contradict the thesis that 4E lacks cautious optimism. That's what they have to do with each other.
OTOH, many people have complained about that optimistic portrayal of the orcs, because they feel deep down in their hearts that orcs are not to be trusted owing to all the preexisting lore, or because there is a self-indulgent desire for orcs to serve as continued enemies and targets for slaughter. So here in this scroll we have a lament of insufficient optimism in the new edition, whereas in other scrolls on other fictional works associated with this new edition, we apparently have a lament of excessive optimism. There seems to be a considerable contradiction or contrariness of themes and outlooks on the extant bits and pieces of this new edition. I perceive that as an example of <"irony">.
quote:
Also, orcs in general are NOT rising in culture, sophistication, and goodliness--just check their entry in the 4E MM.
Very well. That central sourcebook may indeed indicate such. I myself have already challenged the claims that orcs were artificially being turned goodly by RAS (et al) over in the "Obould Karma" and "Bones and Stones" scrolls, vis a vis TOK & the new FRCG. (And I pooh-poohed Drizzt's and Alustriel's excessive optimism there, too.)
But notice that above, in this scroll, I only said "a lot of people simultaneoulsy bemoan RAS's depiction of orcs as improving or rising in culture, sophistication, goodliness, etc." I'm not claiming that the orcs are rising, and I'm not claiming that the powers-that-be have been too optimistic in their portrayal of the orcs. But others have. And they did it with regards to RAS's installments connected with this new edition.
That seems to reveal a quirk in people's perceptions about the different works in this new edition of FR. They seem to perceive and complain about either too much--and now too little--optimism. And I can't quite wrap my head around that inconsistency, yet. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 16:17:14
|
| Beast, even if what you are saying about the Kingdom of Many-Arrows is true (that it's optimistic and that's a good thing), that still doesn't change the fact that for me, I got a strong overall impression that the Realms as a setting was made out to be a darker place than it used to be for 4E. There's WAY more to the setting than one orc kingdom. Maybe you can wrap your head around that, maybe not, but that isn't going to change my gut feelings on the matter. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Oct 2008 16:18:55 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 16:21:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Well thats the thing, isnt it? All the communities that still exist are constantly feeling the pressure from the monster infested areas around them. This is what causes an oppressive feeling which is the same for all of the Realms. There are no places left which are - more or less - SAFE and where you can just have fun ... everything is about combat and the opportunities for a social adventure are more or less gone. This has started with the basic 4e rules and the loss of the social skills already and shows the whole focus of the game is for the world to become one huge monster crawl. Some people simply dont like their roleplaying game to become Diablo and being denied the opportunity to simply live in the world is making it oppressive.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[... F]or me, I got a strong overall impression that the Realms as a setting was made out to be a darker place than it used to be for 4E. [...] Maybe you can wrap your head around that, maybe not, but that isn't going to change my gut feelings on the matter.
But I wonder whether the Forgotten Realms have ever been as "safe" as some people apparently perceived them to be. From my readings primarily of RAS's work, plus a subsequent perusal of a lot of the sourcebooks, I have always perceived FR as a ridiculously conflict-laden distortion of medieval times. It's the middle ages on steroids--or acid, or worse. Monsters and sinister magic abound. Convoluted conspiracies are afoot even in the most bass-ackwards, out-of-the-way dumps. It's always been dangerous in the Realms. It's skeery.
Nevertheless, "human" nature being what it is, the characters have found a way to become desensitized to that ever-looming ominousness. Like everyday citizens in real-world Middle Eastern countries, or even in inner-city slums closer to home, people find a way to make the day-to-day seem familiar, and they develop a sense of normalcy, or relative safety. "Code Green" or "Blue" varies from one country to the next. "Normal" means different things to different people. Some people can smile and happily take a jaunt to the market in places where other people would be scared out of their gourds. Wanna grab a Big Mac in Compton? 
And I haven't detected anything which precludes that exact same phenomenon from developing here, in the 4E. Oh sure, with the eradication of so many communities and their cultural infrastructure, that sense of relative safety and normalcy is going to have to take some time to arise again.
But "human" nature is still what it is. People find a way to carve out their own little sense of home and an inner sanctum in the darndest places, under the darndest circumstances. We have to.
It would be a terrible shame if fans forgot that. Don't let the sparse words of the earliest sourcebooks in this new edition lead you to forget that. Make the world your own. Form your own new sense of "normal", "safe", "familiar", etc.
I touched on my recent hurricane aftermath experience over in another thread, and it bears repeating here. Human nature being what it is, people find a way to bond and establish a sense of relative safety even after really nasty storms. News agencies have a choice to make: either focus on the nastiness, or focus on the interpersonal human side of the efforts to get through it.
It seems to me that FR fans, both the gamers and the just-plain readers, do too. 
P.S.: I'm not pointing the finger at anybody, here. I'm a RAS fanboy, in large part because it's always been hard to motivate myself to expand to read other writers' stuff. What if they suck? What if they make RAS look like he sucks? What if? But nonetheless, here I am at CK.com. Onward into the fog, I go... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 24 Oct 2008 16:23:58 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 16:30:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
But I wonder whether the Forgotten Realms have ever been as "safe" as some people apparently perceived them to be. From my readings primarily of RAS's work, plus a subsequent perusal of a lot of the sourcebooks, I have always perceived FR as a ridiculously conflict-laden distortion of medieval times. It's the middle ages on steroids--or acid, or worse. Monsters and sinister magic abound. Convoluted conspiracies are afoot even in the most bass-ackwards, out-of-the-way dumps. It's always been dangerous in the Realms. It's skeery.
I did not say I thought the Realms used to be perfectly safe, I was just saying I think the tone is darker than it used to be. There's a difference. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 24 Oct 2008 16:45:27 |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 16:43:14
|
| Dunno where that feeling of "safety" came from. Stick your nose out of nigh any FR settlement and an orc or goblin sticks a dart or arrow in it ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 18:07:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I did not say I thought the Realms used to be perfectly safe, I was just saying I think the tone is darker than it used to be. There's a difference.
I get it. There was a relative sense of normalcy/safety before, and it's been shattered. Regardless of what may come later, it's dark and foreboding right now. Understood, and agreed: I wasn't trying to discount or dismiss that observation/opinion.
My point is just to try to help people to find that silver edge--er, lining--amidst all the darkness. It seems to me that there is room to carve out a little slice of home here, still. And that's exactly what had to be done before, in order to give the Realms that comfortable feeling that you guys have mentioned. (Volo's guides to all the finest diners and inns did not exist in the beginning, after all. Somebody had to actually go through the Hells to check all those places out, first. )
But I have no idea how long it will take to do so, all over again.
And it remains to be seen just how the balance of the fans will like this indefinite period of unease, versus their desire for that renewed, relative sense of safety.
This really reminds me of Drizzt's pontification on adventure versus domestication. Some people prefer to maintain a sense of safety and stability from the familiar, while others need the constant excitement and mystery and challenge and stress of the unknown.
It takes all kinds.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 24 Oct 2008 18:10:20 |
|
|
|
Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 00:58:12
|
Personally I think that "new" feeling that the Realms has is easier to explain than all this. If someone were to ask me for an example of what kind of setting FR was, I would have pointed them toward Waterdeep, Sembia, Cormyr, etc. I'm not saying that those examples are all there is to the Realms, but it's basically the heart of the world. Politics, conspiracies, city-life, noble plotting, political mages trying to work scheming plans in the shadows of the big cities. If you were looking for a typical sword & sorcery adventure, it could be found, but your DM would pretty much have to make it up himself with vague bits of canon help. For the most part, everything has been done by somebody, somewhere, already, in regards to picking up yon sword and cleaving your way through some unexplored bit of dungeon or wild land.
Now, all the "important" areas of the Realms aren't so secure. The world had it's "reset" button hit and now there's adventure to be found everywhere and less politics to "clutter" the game. Now, some of us truly enjoyed that "clutter," myself included (political games of intrigue backed up by a strong sword arm or whispered words of power are TONS of fun to me) but to the typical gaming audience, it's too complex to sell reliably. Eberron is doing well because it's all new. New places to explore, new treasures to plunder, etc. FR didn't have that luxury until now. Now, everything's new again. |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 01:28:46
|
While I understand your sentiment, I don't feel like they hit the reset button on the Realms. I feel like they reached up and put a whole bunch of muddy hand smears all over a painting of the Realms and called it 4th edition.
They could have hit reset by going back in time to before the elves came from Faerie. Or, go forward a 100 years but let the Realms evolve naturally, not forcibly. And you give your readers more artistically outlined rule books to pull from that draw on the 30 years of Realms history instead of forcing us to start over on what amounts to a different planet.
In other words, if the Spellplague happened on Earth and half of the Earth was inexplicably gone afterward, replaced by continents from Mars...then the planet Earth is destroyed, with something similar in its place. If you don't know anything about Mars, you don't know anything about Earth now regardless of how long you lived there. So it is with 4e Realms. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 02:12:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
I get it. There was a relative sense of normalcy/safety before, and it's been shattered.
Ehhh...no offense but that wasn't quite what I was getting at. But, I think I'll leave it at that. If you like the way the setting is now, I hope you enjoy it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 11:39:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Dunno where that feeling of "safety" came from. Stick your nose out of nigh any FR settlement and an orc or goblin sticks a dart or arrow in it ...
Well there were a few "good" nations around in 3rd edition and good in this case means both the alignment and the quality of its rulership. You could go outside and expect help there if you were threatened, something that seems less likely in 4e, right? Best example are the Silver Marches, which disbanded more or less with the dwarves retreating into their caves if I remember correctly from the discussions here.
A huge center of civilization like Waterdeep lives by certain rules and even the most evil cultists wouldnt openly run through the streets and slaughter people. They need to do it in secret. So while Waterdeep never was a place populated solely by Care Bears you could relax there and just have fun if you wanted to. Waterdeep doesnt exist in 4e anymore, right?
Oh and due to the loss of most of the high level do-gooders the threat coming from the still living evil baddies has become relatively greater. Now the bad guys arent held in check by the good guys, but can concentrate on any new good guys that might rise to threaten them, namely the PCs.
All this adds up to the setting changing from "dangerous" (with options to go to relatively safe areas) to "oppressive" and no safe spots.
I have played in an "oppressive setting" for years and it was challenging, but being the only ones you can really trust and the only ones who apparently work against the takeover of the world by demons (or whatever) does leave marks. There has to be a chance to "relax" inbetween. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 27 Oct 2008 12:15:29 |
|
|
|
Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 10:02:59
|
The 4e changes make me wonder if WotC didn't actually destroy it with the intention to push more players to a setting like Erebon that they have complete control of! (Then not having to bother with an original creator, i.e., Ed.)
I guess it's just as likely that it could simply be abysmally poor judgment about whatever changes they wanted to make to the setting.
But still, if you wanted to wreck the a very popular setting and make it inhospitable for players what would you do? Hmm, let's see. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 14:47:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
The 4e changes make me wonder if WotC didn't actually destroy it with the intention to push more players to a setting like Erebon that they have complete control of! (Then not having to bother with an original creator, i.e., Ed.)
I guess it's just as likely that it could simply be abysmally poor judgment about whatever changes they wanted to make to the setting.
But still, if you wanted to wreck the a very popular setting and make it inhospitable for players what would you do? Hmm, let's see.
*sigh* Why are people so willing to assign malicious intent to what was done? If WotC didn't want people playing in the Realms, all they would have to do is stop publishing it. That's a hell of a lot easier than do more products for it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The loss of the cautious optimism feeling in 4e
