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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 02:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm wondering if she was obliterated from ALL knowledge- who's to say that her name and tenets are not still written somewhere? She could easily come back, if someone found records of her.... And I like that idea, OMH. Bringing back both of them sounds like fun.
Oghma would never allow destruction of knowledge in his library. And if memory serves, Bane, Bhall, and Myrkul came upon Jergal who let them determine who would have what parts of his portfolio by playing dice...it's in the old gray box set, if memory serves. So, there's certainly precedent for mortals being made divine. The thing that really bothers me with Eilistraee is she was the only counterbalance to Lolth in drow society. If Ao's task was to maintain the balance, why isn't he doing so now? That's what really bothers me. It's really unclear if worshipping a deity enough will cause the deity to manifest or not. Did all of the people who refused to believe in Bane's death allow him to return when Myrkul and Bhaal did not? I remember being pretty unhappy when the 2E rules got rid of the Assassin class (originally) and it was explained in the Time of Troubles series. But killing all of the assassins doesn't kill all of Bhaals worshippers. So, if anyone has thoughts on resolving this non sequitur, I'm happy to hear them. For this, if nothing else, is beyond what even magic can explain. :-)
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 09:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'm wondering if she was obliterated from ALL knowledge- who's to say that her name and tenets are not still written somewhere? She could easily come back, if someone found records of her.... And I like that idea, OMH. Bringing back both of them sounds like fun.
Oghma would never allow destruction of knowledge in his library. And if memory serves, Bane, Bhall, and Myrkul came upon Jergal who let them determine who would have what parts of his portfolio by playing dice...it's in the old gray box set, if memory serves. So, there's certainly precedent for mortals being made divine. The thing that really bothers me with Eilistraee is she was the only counterbalance to Lolth in drow society. If Ao's task was to maintain the balance, why isn't he doing so now? That's what really bothers me. It's really unclear if worshipping a deity enough will cause the deity to manifest or not. Did all of the people who refused to believe in Bane's death allow him to return when Myrkul and Bhaal did not? I remember being pretty unhappy when the 2E rules got rid of the Assassin class (originally) and it was explained in the Time of Troubles series. But killing all of the assassins doesn't kill all of Bhaals worshippers. So, if anyone has thoughts on resolving this non sequitur, I'm happy to hear them. For this, if nothing else, is beyond what even magic can explain. :-)
Doing just a little digging on Kiaransalee reveals that the High Magic ritual 'removed her from the minds of all mortals and gods alike, including the goddess herself'.
Now, maybe I'm just being a PITA here, but removing something from someone's mind does not mean it is also removed from their bookshelves. Azuth has the right of it, I think - even if Oghma forgot, his previous copies of Kiara's holy books, histories, and so forth, would still be there. Plus there are doubtless stories of her before she ascended. I would say all one need do is make a god aware of what's gone on, and then deific powers can be employed to remove the effects of a mortal high magic spell - on Oghma himself, if nothing else.
I'm guessing Ms. Smedman deliberately left that little loophole as well. I also get the impression she realized that the drowpocalypse would not go over too well with the fans (and boy, was she right). |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 09:42:42
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You know, there is an interesting way that might handle these things, depending upon what's become of the souls of the dead.
As an example, I have a drow PC who sort of wants to resurrect his dead father - who, unbeknownst to him, was a follower of Eilistraee.
If a similar thing took place around the time Eilistraee was killed... voila, you have a drow, not one of the altered dark elves, since s/he was not alive when the change happened, who remembers the old ways, and who can start a new movement in honour of Eilistraee, doing her kind of work as before. Number of worshippers grows, deific rebirth possibly ensues.
Which would work even better for Kiaransalee... the dead are not gods, but neither are they mortals anymore. If a devotee of hers was resurrected after the erasure, they would have evaded the ritual's effects, perhaps, because it's a loophole.
...Hells, she's a goddess whose portfolio included undead already - an undead drow has ceased to be mortal as such. |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 17:59:22
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I question whether or not another god has the power to remove information from the mind of Oghma. If memory serves (no pun intended) Oghma can recall anything written in any of his books at any time, instantly. His knowledge is open and free for all. If knowledge doesn't exist, he can't offer it, but some things he just needs someone to ask the right way. I understand Lisa was writing to the mandates of Wizbro, but realistically, it would be like someone trying to cast a spell to deprive the goddess of magic knowledge of magic and all spellcasters in the Realms of such knowledge. The first drow who ever questions morality would invite the question to Oghma of why everyone worships Lolth. So, I consider it a very easy construct to circumvent in story telling, even if I allowed that anybody could erase information from Oghma's mind or library at all. Look at the restrictions at Candlekeep, and then imagine what they would be like a thousand-fold increased, and I suspect you begin to arrive at the levels of protection on knowledge in Oghma's realm. A writer can write whatever she chooses, but another writer can undo that with the proverbial stroke of the pen (see: Bane, Kelemvor...)
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 21:38:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
I question whether or not another god has the power to remove information from the mind of Oghma. If memory serves (no pun intended) Oghma can recall anything written in any of his books at any time, instantly. His knowledge is open and free for all. If knowledge doesn't exist, he can't offer it, but some things he just needs someone to ask the right way. I understand Lisa was writing to the mandates of Wizbro, but realistically, it would be like someone trying to cast a spell to deprive the goddess of magic knowledge of magic and all spellcasters in the Realms of such knowledge. The first drow who ever questions morality would invite the question to Oghma of why everyone worships Lolth. So, I consider it a very easy construct to circumvent in story telling, even if I allowed that anybody could erase information from Oghma's mind or library at all. Look at the restrictions at Candlekeep, and then imagine what they would be like a thousand-fold increased, and I suspect you begin to arrive at the levels of protection on knowledge in Oghma's realm. A writer can write whatever she chooses, but another writer can undo that with the proverbial stroke of the pen (see: Bane, Kelemvor...)
More importantly, this was a spell cast by a mortal spellcaster. Assuming we can pretty much agree that it did not affect the written word (and can thus set that aspect of this issue aside), why would it be possible for a mortal-cast spell - even High Magic - to affect the mind of a god? And even if it did, how would you make it stick? It seems to me that Ms. Smedman is being rather generous with us in that regard.  |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 21:49:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
More importantly, this was a spell cast by a mortal spellcaster. Assuming we can pretty much agree that it did not affect the written word (and can thus set that aspect of this issue aside), why would it be possible for a mortal-cast spell - even High Magic - to affect the mind of a god? And even if it did, how would you make it stick? It seems to me that Ms. Smedman is being rather generous with us in that regard.
I suspect it was done in that very manner because Ms. Smedman disliked her task, and wrote it in a way that it would be very easy to undo by her or another author. I would be pleased on so many levels if they'd let Jim Lowder write a couple more novels in the Avatar Series post Spellplague to set the world to normal again. :-)
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2011 : 22:38:25
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| I concur most heartily, Azuth! The more I think on it, the more I think maybe she really didn't WANT to write the story that way- sort of like the (pardon the comparison here) OMD/BND delimma that caused JM Strazynski to leave ASM after he finished the OMD arc. He did not like Joephisto's take and conclusion, so he walked- right over to Thor. Leaving an "out" for three of the drow gods to return later seems like the perfect way to satisfy the WotC big-wigs AND still allow fans to have hope of their eventual rezzing. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2011 : 11:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I concur most heartily, Azuth! The more I think on it, the more I think maybe she really didn't WANT to write the story that way- sort of like the (pardon the comparison here) OMD/BND delimma that caused JM Strazynski to leave ASM after he finished the OMD arc. He did not like Joephisto's take and conclusion, so he walked- right over to Thor. Leaving an "out" for three of the drow gods to return later seems like the perfect way to satisfy the WotC big-wigs AND still allow fans to have hope of their eventual rezzing.
That was the impression I got from the interview made by the folks at eilistraee.org - in this case, she did the task assigned her (a person's gotta eat, after all), but took as many steps as she thought she could to minimize the damage.
The only worry now is that the wizards of Smart at Wizbro will never get it through their skulls that they made a huge mistake, and that stubborn pride will carry the day over actually giving the people who buy their books something that they'd like to see happen.
I could be wrong. I am by nature a huge pessimist, so maybe I'm just seeing the empty half of the glass. I hope that's the case, even as I think I'm probably justified in my viewpoint. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 00:58:26
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You know, as much as I dislike Eilistrae, I think I might actually incorporate the whole "essence in other vessels" thing into a campaign I was running a while back if I ever get it going again.
The over arching plot of the campaign being that the pc's(a trio of drow siblings, a druegar couple, a shadar kai outcast, and a half-elf fromm Sigil) are being manipulated by unseen forces as pawns in a long-term scheme to usurp power from Lolth's church and plant seeds for the eventual conversion of the bulk of drow society from Lolth worship to Asmodeus worship.
The prevention of Eilistraee's ressurection, whether through the binding of seals, destruction of artifacts, or the murder of unsuspecting mortal vessels, would be a nice side trip or next step for the pcs. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 07:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
she's an archfey.
This. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 08:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
she's an archfey.
This.
Opinion, or insight, good sir?  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 09:40:03
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I wasn't aware there is much love for Eilistraee... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 12:55:49
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| I don't understand it myself, since my perceptions of the Realms were shaped before Eilistraee was introduced/retconned into the setting anyhow. Perhaps also because one do-goody Drow outcast wandering the Realms is already more than I can stomach, I'm perfectly fine with allowing the rest of the race worship Lolth and murder each other in the darkness. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 13:40:02
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The rise of goodly deities in the drow pantheon might be WotC's way of humanizing such a fierce race. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 14:08:23
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| A treacherously untenable situation. Once you humanize all the monsters your players have nothing left to kill except their own moral doubts. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 14:25:37
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Well, if they're truly serious about it, they can still strike a balance, though. They could brutalize some rather tame races. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 17:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
A treacherously untenable situation. Once you humanize all the monsters your players have nothing left to kill except their own moral doubts.
Not sure I can quite agree with that. I don't think I would categorize it as humanizing a monster, considering that 'humanizing' is as subjective as it gets. I would argue that humankind is composed of some of the most monstrous beings created ("Hey, ain't tht the bunch of Zhents that ran cousin Elmer's cart into the ditch last month? Let's take 'em out!").
No one needs drow to bathe Toril in blood. The Chessenta-Imaskar hostility proves that point. And the Zhentarim are primarily a human plague - no drow need apply.
My real problem is that Wizbro blew off a large chunk of their fan base (I mean, come on...both eilistraee.com and eilistraee.org are already taken, and once new suffixes are mainstreamed, you'll see her name on those, too), and they did it in a clumsy, hamfisted fashion, reducing an entire race of sentients that they later provided game-playing rules for to a narrow stereotype. Either make them exclusively monsters and NPCs, or don't mess with world constants that belie that stereotype by again allowing them to be played.
No tiny number of good drow any more...no small number of subtle, shadow-hopping Vhaeraunite mountebanks...no undead-exalting zealots...just one boring drow deity stereotype...one Lolth to rule them all, one Lolth to bind them. Very, very disappointing. |
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe
115 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 18:26:05
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Besides, I'm a bit baffled by this idea that Eilistraeeans are Drizzt clones. It's like some people believe there's only one way to be good.
"Catti-brie and Storm Silverhand are both CG human females! OMG, Catti-brie is a Storm clone!"
It's ridiculous. If anything, the followers of Eilistraee avert Drizzt-like notions. Drizzt was in one of his novels the titular Lone Drow; he is the solitary example. He chose Mielikki, and has subsequently been just that one drow.
The followers of Eilistraee are a group, they work together for a cause that actually looks toward eventually redeeming their fellow drow instead of going "I'm not like them! I will run away, and live among nondrow!" They are the antithesis of Drizzt's solitary renegade existence, because they have a community, and goals that are concerned with changing their people - not just walking away from them.
It's a simplification, as both he and they are more complex, but that's what it boils down to.
A lot of Vhaeraun's followers were CE drow. Does that mean a Vhaeraunite is a clone of, say, Quenthel Baenre? |
Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 20:03:34
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I think that Eilistraee was appropriate for the Drow. Lolth is the primary deity because of indoctrination, not because drow are inherently evil. Orcs...now they're just stupid (from a stats perspective) and thus the term "monster" applies to them. Can there be an exception? Of course. Should they form a Kingdom? I find that notion far more ridiculous than drow being good. Rather than viewing anyone as a "Drizzt clone" perhaps the better question would be why there aren't more of them? Humans can be evil - why aren't they monsters? We say they have "monstrous actions" and even sometimes "you monster" but we don't say that this makes all humans evil.
Eilistraee served a purpose for the drow who moved away from Lolth. It is certainly possible for a drow to worship a deity in the human pantheon, such as Drizzt did, but I'll be curious what he does now that Mielikki is gone. Killing off any god(s) only restricts the abilities of a DM. Of course, Eilistraee isn't going anywhere in my campaigns, Spellplague and what not be damned. That being said, I really think we're losing focus on the original question, and I'm pretty sure the answer is that Ao could at any time "resurrect" Eilistraee. As Ed has hinted, some gods are merely aspects of others, so let's pretend Eilistraee is/was an aspect of Selûne. Selûne can just create a new aspect of herself and this question is answered. I would think that Selûne would have an active voice in recruiting any people who worship the moon, personally. So if not through the resurrection of Eilistraee by Ao, I would espect Selûne to make divine overtures to the "goodly" drow, Lolth would just have to deal with it.
Thoughts?
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 20:38:01
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You know, after all this time and having heard (and re-heard) the arguments which are still offered as the "reason why it was necessary" today, I still really don't get why they got rid of the drow pantheon. Trimming down the other non-human pantheons also still doesn't make sense.
There really just doesn't seem to be a logical reason for it at all. "For simplicity" just doesn't hold water. I still believe that it was some kind of personal beef of the designers that was the real motivator.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 23:18:48
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quote:
Orcs...now they're just stupid (from a stats perspective) and thus the term "monster" applies to them. Can there be an exception? Of course. Should they form a Kingdom? I find that notion far more ridiculous than drow being good.
See, I've always looked at the int stat as having more to do with knowledge and education than actual intelligence. Orcs lack high int stats because their society has always been one that is counter intuitive to higher learning(which is something I personally blame on bad writing; Tolkien's orcs were the height of industry in his world; some how writers took that and said "these'll make excellent dumb muscle cave men"). But the thing is, you don't actually need an enlightened society to form a kingdom. Genghis Khan took the Mongols and turned them from being a bunch of scattered, nomadic barbarians into being the largest land based empire in a matter of decades. All you need is one man(Obould) with the vision, personality, and strength of will to make it happen.
When it comes to "monsters", so long as the creature is more intelligent than an animal and not a living incarnation of evil(fiends), I want my players to feel the full moral impact of taking a life in combat. I want them to know that that orc, that drow, that ogre had a family. I want them to know that it had a full range of emotions. That it had hopes, dreams, that it could think and feel. Nothing annoys me more in fiction than killing being wholely justified because "they're monsters". It's a cop out. An excuse for people to engage in their own blood lust without having to worry about any guilt. There's no point to it. It has no weight, no meaning. And it annoys me to no end when people take all of humanity's many, many horrible flaws and lumps them onto "monsters" and calls it a day. What makes Genghis Khan a fascinating historical character is that while an absolutely brutal war lord(his campaigns caused 40million deaths, including the complete annihilation of a whole civilization), he was in many ways a good man; he valued loyalty, honor, and respect. He treated his men as equals, as family, and welcomed vanguished enemies into his ranks and treated them as any other soldier under his command. He promoted religious tolerance, law, and order. He was more than just a mass murdering psychopath. What makes Obould the best(in my opinion) character Salvatore ever wrote for was that he captures a lot of that; he's brutal, and I'm not going to argue the point, he's evil, but he possesses a humanity to him. There's depth and complexity in his character that makes him more than a one dimensional killing machine. It gives the story more dramatic weight when the enemy is treated as being as human as the protagonist. It makes you question your perspective on things.
My problem with Elistraee, beyond finding her backstory to be eyeroll inducing, is the polarizing aspect it puts on the drow. On one hand, you have your chaotic good, dances naked under the moonlight hippy goddess, and on the other hand, you have pure, unadulterated, batsh*t insane evil. There's no middle ground there(sure you can play a rogue drow following a neutral deity, but not in their own pantheon). The world isn't like that. People are flawed and complex individuals with moral depth.
Personally what I think needs to happen is that good deities need to be shown to have darker sides and evil deities need to be shown to have some noble aspects to them. This doesn't need to be all or nothing, just something to show more depth than "they're good!" or "they're evil!"; they're doing a bit of this already with Points of Light Bane(who's about as evil as Realms Bane) having a lot of good worshipers for the order and stability his church imposes in a hostile, violent world. A non d&d example would be Mehrunes Dagon of the Elder Scrolls series; one of the main antagonists of the series, one of the few daedra that could almost objectively be called "evil", his portfolios include things like change, energy, ambition, and revolution; all of which can have very positive results on the world. Give Lolth and Gruumsh some minor things like that; aspects of their portfolio that can be good or evil or neither. Then you don't need Elistraee anymore.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2011 : 23:20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You know, after all this time and having heard (and re-heard) the arguments which are still offered as the "reason why it was necessary" today, I still really don't get why they got rid of the drow pantheon. Trimming down the other non-human pantheons also still doesn't make sense.
There really just doesn't seem to be a logical reason for it at all. "For simplicity" just doesn't hold water. I still believe that it was some kind of personal beef of the designers that was the real motivator.
I have to agree with this. I think someone at Wizbro really disliked drow as a concept, and wanted to discourage what they perceived as a widespread proliferation of drow fandom. So they came up with this 'idea' to remove as much drow influence as possible from the Realms when 4th Edition rolled around.
Obviously, the ability to actually play a drow couldn't be removed (although I'm betting the bottom line is all that stopped them from doing that, as well) - too much money to be made there. But they have, in their mind, the best of all worlds. Some faceless apparatchik gives Lisa Smedman her assignment - stating unequivocally that the drow pantheon had to be 'tweaked' - and gets their way without having any of the tide of disapproval even touch them (odds are Ms. Smedman doesn't even know who came up with the harebrained idea).
Good money says that the folks who have done work for Wizbro, but have come and posted here, also have absolutely no idea (to a person, I'm betting they'd explain their reasoning if they did). I'm guessing we are never going to know who came up with this callous slap-in-the-player's-face idea. What we CAN hope for is that someone will be given the ability to go about restoring the fallen deities that people actually liked. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 01:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
<snip>
Personally what I think needs to happen is that good deities need to be shown to have darker sides and evil deities need to be shown to have some noble aspects to them. This doesn't need to be all or nothing, just something to show more depth than "they're good!" or "they're evil!"; they're doing a bit of this already with Points of Light Bane(who's about as evil as Realms Bane) having a lot of good worshipers for the order and stability his church imposes in a hostile, violent world. A non D&D example would be Mehrunes Dagon of the Elder Scrolls series; one of the main antagonists of the series, one of the few daedra that could almost objectively be called "evil", his portfolios include things like change, energy, ambition, and revolution; all of which can have very positive results on the world. Give Lolth and Gruumsh some minor things like that; aspects of their portfolio that can be good or evil or neither. Then you don't need Elistraee anymore.
I'm afraid I must disagree, ChAsm... as deities are not mortals. They exist to serve aspects of mortals and the desires of mortals and their environs. Aspects do not have “dark sides” or “light sides” or they don't embody the aspect purely. Torm is always lawful and good, as those are the aspects he manifests. Deeds done in his name that do not fit in his portfolio do not earn his favor because those actions are not what he represents. Aside from the true neutral deities (most) of the elements, deities cannot work outside the frame of their portfolio. I'm unclear if, say, Istishia cares if her worshippers are good or evil, or if she only accepts neutral worshippers. Just as (in theory, I suppose) a very small percentage of humans are chaotic evil, a very small percentage of drow are not. Some type of power needs to exist to handle the prayers of that group, and receive their souls when they die. Polytheism relies upon different aspects of life being handled by different deities. Obould certainy could have raised an army of orcs, and did, but the thought that the orcs would continue to function in a cohesive manner denies what “orcs” have been on Faerûn for thousands of years.
The drow were originally just “dark elves” and represented a portion of the elven species with a lot of pigmentation in their skin. Any intellectual species with a chance at high wisdom can produce the occasional savant, and it could be that Drizzt and Obould are examples of that happening.
Along that line, the disincorporation of Eilistraee leaves a vacuum in the spectrum of deific worship in the Drow pantheon, much as the dissolution of both Mystra and Azuth left no god in control of magic. What, then, should people who worship and study magic as a thing (a religion) do with respect to choosing a patron deity? It's terribly important in Faerûn to have such a deity given the impact on the afterlife. It invites mortals to “bet” on a deity for worship with the hope that a more powerful deity is less likely to be eliminated or subjugated and hence their “eternal afterlives” aren't going to be shaken up. With the death of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, all of their worshippers fell under Cyric’s control. Mystra’s fell under...the new Mystra's. Now, suddenly, mortals must fear that their patron deity might be killed after the mortal has died, with no control over their souls' fates.
It is this seemingly-callous disregard for canon and continuity that I dislike the fourth edition so much. I was equally upset when 3E went from "infravision" (which made sense) to "dark vision" (which did and still does not.) It wasn’t even covered up with a good, decent, or bad story. Just "now you see as if it there were light when there isn’t" one day.
I must agree with Therise in that one (or more) people at Wizbro didn't like the Realms for some reason. I cannot prove it, but to cause such wanton chaos to the game world does not seem (to me) to be in the best interests of attracting and retaining customers. Thus I maintain that Eilistraee is needed for a multitude of reasons, and her absence must be resolved for everyday normalcy in the gaming world to continue.
I look forward to the replies :-)
END OF SPEECH
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 02:05:21
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What Azuth is saying about the orcs (and the lack of Eilistraee's influence now among the drow), it makes me wonder why we didn't see the ascension of one or more new orcish deities after the spellplague. After all, Obould's influence has essentially de-fanged many orcs, at least some of those in the Many-Arrows region.
With this massive change toward civilizing influences, why haven't we seen new (lesser) deities among the orcs? Gruumsh certainly can't serve the needs of all his people as he did in the past, he's too violent and destructive. The orcs just aren't animalistic brutes any more, they're growing more complex. Such wide social changes should also, I'd argue, be reflected in their spirituality.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 02:12:17
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I have to agree with Azuth here, particularly the 'seemingly callous disregard for canon and continuity' part.
Chosen does have a point when he says that Many-Arrows got short shrift in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, considering that they are occupying part of the city, but that was likely simple oversight on the part of the authors. It is not at all like the drowpocalypse, which was likely instituted because someone at Wizbro had developed a major issue with drow in general and Eilistraee in particular.
Drow are still a cash cow for Wizbro, however, and should take into account what the book-purchasers and DDI-subscribers would mostly like to retain, rather than the apparent contempt of a faceless 'designer' whose name we will never know. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 02:22:36
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Agreed, I'm also of the opinion that the Many-Arrows orcs got shafted with Neverwinter. They're essentially right next door as a culture, and there's a ton of potential there for something brand new to be further developed and explored. Instead, we get the really FAR AWAY cultures of Thay and the Abolethic Sovereignty popping up.
And truthfully, I just don't think it makes any sense for a Dread Ring, much less a full Thayan contingent, to be parked so close to Neverwinter. Are we meant to conclude that Thay has fingers in everything across the top north side of the Faerun continent? I mean, I could see a random, out of place refugee from Thay making it over to Neverwinter, but the rest of it makes little sense to me (sorry Erik).
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Sep 2011 02:24:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 02:27:28
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| Interestingly enough, civilized orcs and half-orcs were part of the more cosmopolitan and "culturally enlightened" Zakhara setting since its inception. Ideally - all Zakharan orcs and elves and dwarves and men all share the same temple space during prayers, attend the same schools, work together and hold equal community standing. Basically all Zakharans are (theoretically) tolerant and even largely indifferent about race; most of them generally wouldn't care if you were an orc anywhere near as much as they'd judge your particular corner of their culture, which city or neighbourhood you came from, how much wealth and influence your family possesses, etc. Killing another Zakharan is murder, even when he happens to be an orc; it is one of the many reasons they view ignorant foreigners as barbaric. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 12 Sep 2011 02:32:36 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 03:34:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Interestingly enough, civilized orcs and half-orcs were part of the more cosmopolitan and "culturally enlightened" Zakhara setting since its inception. Ideally - all Zakharan orcs and elves and dwarves and men all share the same temple space during prayers, attend the same schools, work together and hold equal community standing. Basically all Zakharans are (theoretically) tolerant and even largely indifferent about race; most of them generally wouldn't care if you were an orc anywhere near as much as they'd judge your particular corner of their culture, which city or neighbourhood you came from, how much wealth and influence your family possesses, etc. Killing another Zakharan is murder, even when he happens to be an orc; it is one of the many reasons they view ignorant foreigners as barbaric.
I have to wonder why Zakhara was also removed from the official campaign guide along with Maztica.... I understand that Wizbro may have wanted to focus on Faerûn versus the other continents, but it didn't require them to remove them from the game setting. It forces us into "camps" of "I will adopt 4E" or "I will not adopt 4E" as it doesn't mesh with 3E. Sometimes I wonder when Gond will become the predominant religion and we'll have an industrial revolution? The whole point (in my opinion) of D&D is to have a medieval setting with dungeons and dragons, not factories and guns.
Ed created a beautfully-elaborate game setting that has garnered the biggest following of fictional words in D&D than any other. Rather than continue on that success, Wizbro has sought to destroy the familiar to what end? Honestly, and pardon the rant, but what purpose is there in displacing the goddess of magic? Gond should have been the first one to go if they were trying to restore a more "classic" setting. Instead, it seems we're drifting from fantasy into Sci-Fi. The Abolethic Sovereignty was a great read, but it didn't feel like the Realms to me. Such a story would have been fantastic in Spelljammer, for example.
Anyway, end of rant, and although we've drifted dramatically from discussing Eilistraee at times, the answer to that question (posed three years ago!) remains, "yes" so our continued discussions are enlightening and enjoyable.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2011 : 03:57:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Anyway, end of rant, and although we've drifted dramatically from discussing Eilistraee at times, the answer to that question (posed three years ago!) remains, "yes" so our continued discussions are enlightening and enjoyable.
We have indeed drifted far from the original topic, and I should prefer we go back in the original direction.
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Any chance Ao resurrects Eilistraee?
