| Author |
 Topic  |
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 09:01:28
|
sfdragon is that something you've conceived of or did someone involved in the published realms say she is an arch-fey?
I got the impression it was her plan to die. Not everything wants to exist forever. Everything people did to worship her could be done worshiper other deities like Correlon or Selune.
If she came back to life she wouldn't be the same Eilistraee people seem to focus on regardless, would she? She'd would have become a dancing MASKED lady who lies and uses subterfuge. In my own Forgotten Realms timeline she returned to life as Eilistraee with Vhaeraun living on inside her, and has replaced Mask as the deity of thieves. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 24 Apr 2011 09:07:54 |
 |
|
|
Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 05:51:34
|
Do not forget that Torm fought for cause of Ao during chaos and disbalance when world went crazy literally. Eilistraee's death of course destroyed the already thin bridge between drow and elves, but in return it brought back the true dark elves (or so I heard).
I really like the Eilistraee, but I believe many used her as excuse for Drizzt clones for too long. If she ever returns, in my opinion she will transform to her surface elf manifestation she had before banishment. The only way to keep drow as canon villains and have a favorite Goddess at the same time. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
|
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 19:50:08
|
| Perhaps, but favored deity is not the same as ONLY deity. I highly dislike the fact that they axed so many pantheons of other races. Why are humans the only race allowed to have a large pantheon in 4th ed? It makes no sense- so I ignore it. And since all things eventually come full circle, I'm sure that she will be brought back eventually- as pointed out eariler, there is still that moon thing in Arvandor, and her domain is still there..... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 01:57:28
|
| I never liked the idea of racial pantheons. I thought the pantheons should have all been integrated. Why would beings worship different deities based on race? It never made any sense to me. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 03:03:32
|
| Probably because those deities CREATED those races, would be my guess. Each race has its own creation stories, and its own racial origins- which sort of necessitates having their own gods to fit those myths. Just as RW creation tales come in many forms, so do the ones in Faerun, and since each race has a certain mind-set and viewpoint, they would naturally see deities in different ways. Each race is going to see its creators as being of their own race. It's how they identify themselves as separate from the other races. Otherwise, what's the point of elves being different from dwarves or gnomes? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 04:55:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Thanks for your response guys but do you feel that Eilisttraes "sacrifice" warrants a ressurection? I mean how was what Torm did any more selfless? He got the resurrection AND an upgrade to Greater God? I guess I can only fathom how an overgod like Ao perceives these types of things...
My take is that Ao was directly involved in banishing the gods, and as Bane was responsible for part of the plot to steal the Tablets, Ao left him "dead." It is probable that a being of Ao's power knew that Bane would resurrect himself, and also possible that he wanted Torm around. Ao could have resurrected Mystra, too, if he felt like it given his nearly-limitless power in the Realms. Why Ao does or doesn't intervene is really up to each DM in his or her campaign, and up to the authors and WoTC in the official novelizations. I prefer more choices, not less, so she'll never die in my campaign. If gods can be killed, they cease to be gods to mortals. immortal doesn't mean "a really long life" to the worshipers, in my opinion. Furthermore, the death of gods would shake the faith of the lesser powers as worshippers would have to hedge their afterlife on whether or not their patron deities would survive attack by another god. This is my primary objection to the changes in 4E: it undermines the faith-based system of power. If reality, Ao didn't resurrect Eilistraee because the writer and editor or WoTC didn't need or want it to happen.
Ao is a very handy and powerful "tool" in literature. Hypothetically speaking, Ao could undo everything in the 4E rule book and change it back to the 3.5 or 3.0 setting. Ao is used to explain decisions made outside of the game world. Ed handles him with extreme care in his books, I have noticed, and makes him rare and mysterious, even to the Chosen of Mystra. There are no statistics on Ao that are published (to my knowledge) because he can be and is anything and everything ever needed in a campaign. However, that does not mean that Ao will manifest and explain things to the mortals of Fareûn. When Bane returned, a lot of my players thought Ao was involved. They looked to me as DM for answers and I suggested they find a temple to Bane and ask him what he thought via his priests. Bane, of course, believes he is personally responsible for his resurrection. Was Ao involved? He certainly isn't telling.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 04:58:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Agreed, Darius. I think she probably had too much power relative to her worshipper population, but really what drives a god's strength in published material is its RW fan base. In fact, I listed her as a lesser power in my campaigns. The irony about Eilistraee is, her popularity among the RW fan base was driven by the popularity of good drow, which in turn was driven by the popularity of a certain particular good drow... who wasn't even a worshipper of Eilistraee, and as such is still a drow after all the Eilistraee-worshippers are redeemed in more pointless 4E retconning.
And re: too many deities: I think you answered your own question there. The problem is, deities *are* "fluff" (although I dislike the term), and as such, it means there are too many of them for Wizbro's liking, and there would be even if the Realms pantheon was the size of Greyhawk's, methinks. Excising "fluff" and making the world generic (at least in terms of Eberron) was the entire point of 4E Realms.
And that's as much as I'm saying about that. Search for my other posts if you want more 4E Realms ranting. I've said it all before somewhere else on these boards, I'm sure. 
[+]"Like"
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 05:05:27
|
Torm was resurrected cause he was the only selfless deity to die. Sorry Mystra II fans, but she acted in novel like a selfish uncaring woman not worthy of being called deity. Torm was hardly like that. He was naive and too trusting, but nothing like that. So guess who out of Mystra, Dead Three and Torm was worthy to be resurrected?
I heard many things that transpired with pantheon in 4th edition. Ghastly business. Still, creators cannot ignore the unpopularity for too long. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
|
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 05:11:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, unless you have specific, irrefutable evidence to that fact, statements like that need to be avoided -- especially when you're basically calling out one of the designers. It's fine if that's your opinion, but if it is an opinion, it needs to be stated as such. If it's not an opinion, then provide quotes and other references to show that it's a stated fact.
Wooly, I don't believe we can present irrefutable evidence, but the fact that Bruce said that there were powers even greater than Ao in his Abolethic Soverignty" series can be used as a foundation upon which to judge his opinion of the Realms prior to his involvement. I'm not willing to go so far to say that Bruce signed Eilistraee's death certificate, but I doubt he would have granted her a last-minute stay of execution in his role at WoTC, either.
I've often wondered how the posts on here would be had this existed during the 1E to 2E transition. That was a rather dramatic transition IMHO, much more so than 2E to 3E. But, Anyone who signs up to have his or her name published as a designer should expect flack regardless of his or her decisions. But, we probably won't get our collective wish to have Ed as the designer and master-in-chief of the Realms, so we as gamers should take the Realms into our own hands, and use our fellows here at CK to bounce ideas off of one another and get insight from very smart people.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 05:18:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Torm was resurrected cause he was the only selfless deity to die. Sorry Mystra II fans, but she acted in novel like a selfish uncaring woman not worthy of being called deity. Torm was hardly like that. He was naive and too trusting, but nothing like that. So guess who out of Mystra, Dead Three and Torm was worthy to be resurrected?
I heard many things that transpired with pantheon in 4th edition. Ghastly business. Still, creators cannot ignore the unpopularity for too long.
I have to disagree. I've had discussions with Jim Lowder and Troy Denning, and Midnight's transformation into Mystra was planned to be just that - a transition. It demonstrated how divinity had tasks and requirements, and that the gods had to act within their spheres of influence. Oghma goes to great length to teach this to Mystra, and to a lesser extent, Kelemvor. Jim will tell the tale of an original plan to have a trilogy called "The Godswar" with a book written by Scott Ciencin, himself, and Jim each detailing one of the risen gods. That didn't come to pass, but what did was their attempt to close the storyline. Mystra was not uncaring, she was too caring. Torm was never presented as anything but a God of Duty in my recollection. I'm baffled by his ascendence to replace Tyr, however. All that aside, Bane and Torm are both back, so the question of "resurrectionability" is somewhat moot. I much prefered the dead three to Cyric.
I do not wish to pull Jim Lowder into this discussion unfairly, but you can ask questions of him in his thread and he's usually very good about responding. The whole Avatar Trilogy project's history is very interesting.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Lashaeral
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 09:40:47
|
Question Related to Eilistraee, distantly, though I confess, having little to do with this threads topic....
Anyone here old enough to have played FR BEfore it turned out that DUH DUH DUH... the 7th sister is ... a drow!
Anyone remember a Fanon version of the 7th sister, they or a DM used, when she was still a figure cloaked in mysterry? |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 15:14:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lashaeral
Question Related to Eilistraee, distantly, though I confess, having little to do with this threads topic....
Anyone here old enough to have played FR BEfore it turned out that DUH DUH DUH... the 7th sister is ... a drow!
Anyone remember a Fanon version of the 7th sister, they or a DM used, when she was still a figure cloaked in mysterry?
I remember, having played the realms for over 20 years now, before Qilué Veladorn was revealed. I don't recall ever using all of the Chosen at once, though, and I'm pretty sure that Ed owns that domain, so no authors used a non-canon version of her. Any ritual that would have required all seven for some reason, would probably see Elminster participating as he is the one I most associate with the Seven. FWIW.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 00:41:12
|
| Torm could appear to an Elf, Dwarf, and Gnome in different ways. Hence why I liked Hanali Celani being Sune, Sehanine being Selune, etc. in 4th edition. It was a decisiont that made more sense. |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 18:07:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Yeah, I can understand why they would have wanted to give Eilistraee the axe. PCs just don't react the same way to drow as they used to. Good drow becoming more common has definitely reduced that 'It's a drow! KILL IT!' reaction amongst PCs that seemed so in tune with the fiction.
I would imagine that renegage monster gods arise from time to time in Faerun, and their arcs are similar to Eilistraee's. Godlings and ascended demigods could fill roles like that, especially in cases when a tribe has been forced to work together with good-aligned races. A small orc tribe is isolated from their horde and forced to work with a human kingdom in order to survive. Some orcish servitor godling sees the opportunity to advance himself and appears to the tribe, granting spells in exchange for worship. The godling operates in secrecy as much as possible, and then Gruumsh finds out, hunts him down and makes his skull into a spitoon. The loss of divine patronage is devastating for the tribe, and most of them either die of whatever means Gruumsh uses to take revenge on them, or turn back to the old ways.
With this in mind; how many people are perfectly ok with goodly drow becoming a common sight, and are absolutely against the whole, Kingdom of Many-Arrows thing.
Follow up question; if you are pro-good-drow and anti-not-stupid-evil-orc, is it because a) good drow have been around longer, b) good drow are rogues and renegades, not stupid-evil orcs have a whole nation, or c) drow have sex appeal, orcs don't, or d) other.
And yes, I'm beating on a dead horse here. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 18:22:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Yeah, I can understand why they would have wanted to give Eilistraee the axe. PCs just don't react the same way to drow as they used to. Good drow becoming more common has definitely reduced that 'It's a drow! KILL IT!' reaction amongst PCs that seemed so in tune with the fiction.
I would imagine that renegage monster gods arise from time to time in Faerun, and their arcs are similar to Eilistraee's. Godlings and ascended demigods could fill roles like that, especially in cases when a tribe has been forced to work together with good-aligned races. A small orc tribe is isolated from their horde and forced to work with a human kingdom in order to survive. Some orcish servitor godling sees the opportunity to advance himself and appears to the tribe, granting spells in exchange for worship. The godling operates in secrecy as much as possible, and then Gruumsh finds out, hunts him down and makes his skull into a spitoon. The loss of divine patronage is devastating for the tribe, and most of them either die of whatever means Gruumsh uses to take revenge on them, or turn back to the old ways.
With this in mind; how many people are perfectly ok with goodly drow becoming a common sight, and are absolutely against the whole, Kingdom of Many-Arrows thing.
Follow up question; if you are pro-good-drow and anti-not-stupid-evil-orc, is it because a) good drow have been around longer, b) good drow are rogues and renegades, not stupid-evil orcs have a whole nation, or c) drow have sex appeal, orcs don't, or d) other.
And yes, I'm beating on a dead horse here.
Me, I don't mind the occasional good drow. And by occasional, I mean something like Drizzt or Liriel -- a single individual here and there, not bunches of them. I prefer them very rare, so rare that they still have to keep their drow heritage hidden most places they go, and so rare that most commoners will have never even heard of good drow.
So not even approaching an obscure rumor, much less a common sight.
That said, I'm still not a fan of an orc kingdom. I find the premise most unlikely. Not because orcs are stupid, but because being farmers and getting along with their neighbors is not what we generally see from orcs in the North -- especially when the orcs in question engaged in bloody conquest just to become farmers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 01:07:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Yeah, I can understand why they would have wanted to give Eilistraee the axe. PCs just don't react the same way to drow as they used to. Good drow becoming more common has definitely reduced that 'It's a drow! KILL IT!' reaction amongst PCs that seemed so in tune with the fiction.
I would imagine that renegage monster gods arise from time to time in Faerun, and their arcs are similar to Eilistraee's. Godlings and ascended demigods could fill roles like that, especially in cases when a tribe has been forced to work together with good-aligned races. A small orc tribe is isolated from their horde and forced to work with a human kingdom in order to survive. Some orcish servitor godling sees the opportunity to advance himself and appears to the tribe, granting spells in exchange for worship. The godling operates in secrecy as much as possible, and then Gruumsh finds out, hunts him down and makes his skull into a spitoon. The loss of divine patronage is devastating for the tribe, and most of them either die of whatever means Gruumsh uses to take revenge on them, or turn back to the old ways.
With this in mind; how many people are perfectly ok with goodly drow becoming a common sight, and are absolutely against the whole, Kingdom of Many-Arrows thing.
Follow up question; if you are pro-good-drow and anti-not-stupid-evil-orc, is it because a) good drow have been around longer, b) good drow are rogues and renegades, not stupid-evil orcs have a whole nation, or c) drow have sex appeal, orcs don't, or d) other.
And yes, I'm beating on a dead horse here.
I have found the Kingdom of Many Arrows to be ridiculous at best. That Obould could be intelligent and powerful isn't beyond reason - he's like an Einstein of sorts. But that he would get giants and other "creatures" to fall in line with him really pushed the limit. That the orcs would still have that kingdom a hundred years after its founding borders on the unbelievable to me. Prior to the Spellplague, the vast "forces of good" could have found a few wizards to crush them. Orcs don't have a very good "tune" with respect to magic and the Weave.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 04:25:41
|
I agree with Azuth. Obould's kingdom seems like the antithesis of everything that orcs usually do. As Wooly said, orcs would hardly want to be farmers, and conquering a land just to turn around and go "Green Acres" on the North. Doesn't make sense.
That said, I'm all for having good drow. Perhaps not in large numbers, but I always liked the idea of small camps or communities of drow who chose to turn away from Lolth's tyranny completely. Eilistraee made a good reason for them to do that. Having a goddess who actually gives a frack about them and offers them something better than a dark hole in the ground makes them more interesting. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 04:54:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree with Azuth. Obould's kingdom seems like the antithesis of everything that orcs usually do. As Wooly said, orcs would hardly want to be farmers, and conquering a land just to turn around and go "Green Acres" on the North. Doesn't make sense.
That said, I'm all for having good drow. Perhaps not in large numbers, but I always liked the idea of small camps or communities of drow who chose to turn away from Lolth's tyranny completely. Eilistraee made a good reason for them to do that. Having a goddess who actually gives a frack about them and offers them something better than a dark hole in the ground makes them more interesting.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, I agree with Alystra on the Drow. Yes, they remain an "evil" species of elves, but if good drow were somehow not present, then it seems to predispose that any sun or moon elves could be evil. I'm more surprised by the lack of any truly evil deities for surface elves in the elven pantheon, whereas the humans have a multitude of choices. That being said, I don't think that the human pantheon has ever really been limited to just humans, and that the gods will accept worship from any soul who offers it to them.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:09:21
|
| The Black ARrow is pretty close to being evil... the vengeful besterd |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:49:09
|
he does it out of hatred which is evil in itself.
the fact that he only reserves for the drow, who are evil justifies him only partially.
He's evil in my book |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 07:53:52
|
There have been orc cities before, at least one in the Moonsea. Why couldn't they build a city?
I would see Sheverash as a deity slowly shifting to an evil alignment. Eldath was once Neutral and became Neutral Good,,, deities can change alignment too = P |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 14:26:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree with Azuth. Obould's kingdom seems like the antithesis of everything that orcs usually do. As Wooly said, orcs would hardly want to be farmers, and conquering a land just to turn around and go "Green Acres" on the North. Doesn't make sense.
That said, I'm all for having good drow. Perhaps not in large numbers, but I always liked the idea of small camps or communities of drow who chose to turn away from Lolth's tyranny completely. Eilistraee made a good reason for them to do that. Having a goddess who actually gives a frack about them and offers them something better than a dark hole in the ground makes them more interesting.
Drizzt was the antithesis of everything a drow was supposed to be twenty years ago. The difference is scale, and even then its one small, isolated kingdom, compared to the massive number of wild orc tribes across the world. Even then, it's not "orcs decide to live peacefully and tend a garden", it's "orcs decide to have some sustainable basis for a society that doesn't live in caves and scavenge for a living". And I take offense to any insinuation that farming is at all a weak profession. Farmers out on the range were some of the toughest, meanest people you'd ever meet. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 17:37:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree with Azuth. Obould's kingdom seems like the antithesis of everything that orcs usually do. As Wooly said, orcs would hardly want to be farmers, and conquering a land just to turn around and go "Green Acres" on the North. Doesn't make sense.
That said, I'm all for having good drow. Perhaps not in large numbers, but I always liked the idea of small camps or communities of drow who chose to turn away from Lolth's tyranny completely. Eilistraee made a good reason for them to do that. Having a goddess who actually gives a frack about them and offers them something better than a dark hole in the ground makes them more interesting.
Drizzt was the antithesis of everything a drow was supposed to be twenty years ago. The difference is scale, and even then its one small, isolated kingdom, compared to the massive number of wild orc tribes across the world. Even then, it's not "orcs decide to live peacefully and tend a garden", it's "orcs decide to have some sustainable basis for a society that doesn't live in caves and scavenge for a living". And I take offense to any insinuation that farming is at all a weak profession. Farmers out on the range were some of the toughest, meanest people you'd ever meet.
I don't think that anyone was insinuating that farming is a weak profession, and I don't think that anyone is implying it. I believe that the Kingdom of Many Arrows requires cooperation amongst too many members of a species that are defined as low on the intelligence spectrum. The problem I have is that forming a society is a high-order, rational form of thought that is beyond the goblinkind. I understand that Bob used Obould as a plot device, and that's fine, but unlike the rare clan of good drow, this is a relatively large "kingdom" of orcs. That's is the issue with which I have a problem. Drow are already high-order thinkers, so choosing to be good or evil is easily within their ken, but having the orcs suddenly morph into intelligent creatures is beyond what I accept as plausible.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Lashaeral
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 02:48:24
|
Here here.
But a lot of people HATED eilistraee, and good drow... and they were often more vocal on some forums then those who who liked them
I do like them incidently
Curious
on fanfiction.netI've LOOKED and looked
I havent found
ONE fix fic for the lady pentitent trilogy
not ONE
until I myself wrote and published one.
any idea why the absence of fix fics
(meaning "A story with eilistraee winning) |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2011 : 06:34:11
|
I try to avoid thread necromancy, as a rule, but sometimes the pull is just too strong (and I don't wish to open a redundant thread).
On a jaunt through cyberspace, I happened upon the goodly (drow) folk at eilistraee.com. They are all, seemingly to a soul, very much not liking what occurred in the Lady Penitent trilogy, and some of the discussion centered around 'loopholes' and 'ways around' the Dark Maiden's demise. To be fair, they at least recognized that Ms. Smedman was only following her marching orders from WotC when she made Eili-kabobs.
I can't say I blame them a bit for not liking what happened, either. Count me as one of those people who have no issue with a not-tiny amount of non-evil drow (although I do not insist on 'good' - neutral drow are far more likely, in my opinion), but consider an orc kingdom to be jumping the sahaugin more than just a bit. And the reasons given here are as good if not better than any I could give.
Looking at the Neverwinter campaign setting, this is emphasized for each example. The theme 'Bregan D'Aerthe Spy' is presented as a drow-specific player character option. And as drow have been made available as player characters, and orcs have not (in fact, full orcs are specifically not made to be player characters), this further bears up the arguments in the thread.
In addition, the Many-Arrows orcs in Neverwinter are shown to be engaged in, essentially, an act of conquest. This shows that Obould was indeed a hiccup. Even if he was a charismatic dynamo that could get all the humanoid races to cooperate, his time is long past, and the orcs are seemingly reverting to stereotype inside of the city of Neverwinter, even if slowly and not all at once.
I believe fan fiction is the only way we will ever see the Dark Maiden brought back. I have myself started such an effort (because, in truth, the LPT seems to me to be one of the more blatant preludes to the Shattered Realms, and axing Eilistraee 'just because' - and you know that's why they did it - annoys me), although I would have no idea where such a thing would be posted if I managed to complete it (I need to re-acquire a copy of Word, anyways).
Maybe it's because I'm old, grumpy, and reactionary...but like the Realms themselves, I don't think Eilistraee (or the drow as a whole, for that matter), got a fair shake out of all of this. |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2011 : 07:03:13
|
You know, I'm not egotistical enough to think that the universe exists to rob me of all joy. But damn if it doesn't do a good job of it, anyway.
I don't want orcs to be heroes. I hate heroes. I just want them to have the option. Let them be anti heroes, or at least let them be threats that can be taken seriously instead of fodder any farm boy with a sword can kill. If I wanted to read about ugly puppies diving into wood chippers, I could find it on the internet for free, |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2011 : 07:21:46
|
| I don't think she should be a goddess, archfey or something cause there never was enough worshippers. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Any chance Ao resurrects Eilistraee?
