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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 11:35:52
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The Shadowfell must be the next big thing because I see it mentioned 1000+ times more often now in 4E products than the Shadow Plane was ever mentioned before. Not a complaint, merely an observation.
I wonder if the whole thing was influenced heavily by the Shades, Shar and all that in FR...
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 13:04:46
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| probly something of a shadowplane ala birthright. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 14:18:10
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in part from page 69 of the FRCG...
the Shadowfell is "A gloomy echo of Toril, the Shadowfell is at once ancient and new. The dark goddess Shar reshaped what was then known as the Plane of Shadow during the years of chaos following the Spellplague".
From my memory, I do not recall the Shadow plane getting any real attention until 3e and Shades appearance in novels.
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Edited by - scererar on 30 Sep 2008 14:20:11 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 14:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
From my memory, I do not recall the Shadow plane getting any real attention until 3e and Shades appearance in novels.
Yeah exactly...and then BOOM - mention of the Shadowfell is all over the Monster Manual, Shar is the #1 villain, modules based around it, and all. So like how we had Year of the Dragon and Year of the Drow, is this now the Year of the Shadowfell??? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 14:37:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair[I]s this now the Year of the Shadowfell???
Century of the Shadowfell, I believe...  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 16:04:51
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| As as already been pointed out, having Mystra around was a problem because she was supposedly too powerful and her servants were everywhere. Why this is acceptable with Shar is something I fail to understand. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 17:11:10
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| Because Mystra is good and Shar is evil. All evil Uber-NPC have survived the spellplague, which decimated mostly the good ones. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 18:01:32
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Evil NPCs survived to become ultimate villains for the PCs to vanquish without any other ultimate heroes in the way to steal all the glory (hence why Fzoul, Jarlaxle, etcc are statted and not Drizzt, Elminster, etc.. in 4E). A way to help DMs and PCs who didn't have the sense on how to handle it before and need it made more obvious that THEY are the heroes. But this is back to the other topics.
I don't have a problem with the Shadowfell though. Just interesting to see it becoming the BIG thing in D&D 4E. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 18:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I don't have a problem with the Shadowfell though. Just interesting to see it becoming the BIG thing in D&D 4E.
My biggest problem with it, though, is that where we before had a thousand evil groups, often working at cross-purposes, now everyone that's evil seems to be tied to Shar or shadows, or both. We went from a smorgasbord of evil to a single, near-monolithic evil. It's almost like GI Joe vs. Cobra. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 18:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My biggest problem with it, though, is that where we before had a thousand evil groups, often working at cross-purposes, now everyone that's evil seems to be tied to Shar or shadows, or both. We went from a smorgasbord of evil to a single, near-monolithic evil. It's almost like GI Joe vs. Cobra.
In that case, Oghma and Deneir must be really popular among the new heroes of 4E Realms.
(wait for it)
(almost...)
(here ya go!)
Because 'knowing is half the battle'!  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 18:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I don't have a problem with the Shadowfell though. Just interesting to see it becoming the BIG thing in D&D 4E.
My biggest problem with it, though, is that where we before had a thousand evil groups, often working at cross-purposes, now everyone that's evil seems to be tied to Shar or shadows, or both. We went from a smorgasbord of evil to a single, near-monolithic evil. It's almost like GI Joe vs. Cobra.
True, I agree. Having read through the FRCG, it almost seems like Shar is the only evil to fight. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 18:48:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
In that case, Oghma and Deneir must be really popular among the new heroes of 4E Realms.
(wait for it)
(almost...)
(here ya go!)
Because 'knowing is half the battle'!
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 20:13:11
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Sure, Shade/the Netherese/the Church of Shar are getting a lot of attention as big evil-doers (from the designers, but even more so, from the fans, witness this thread). I think, though, that's because they're most active in their client state, Sembia, and in Netheril itself, which puts them in geographical proximity to fan favorite areas like Luruar, Cormyr, Myth Drannor, and the Dalelands.
Leaving aside the individual threats of dragons, beholders, and other traditional D&D enemies, other far reaching, multifarious evils that get a lot of ink in the FRCG and FRPH include but are not limited to:
* The Warlock Knights of Vaasa (whose power comes from a primordial being who may, or may not be the "lost god" Talos the Destroyer)
* The Abolethic Sovereignty
* The Elturgard Paladins and its Church of Amaunator (y'know, depending on your leanings and how far they'll eventually go--Children of Light, etc)
* The Order of Blue Fire
* The Cult of the Dragon
* Najara (and other Serpent Kingdoms, like the sarrukh ruled Okoth)
* Szass Tam and a whole nation of undead in blasted Thay
* Deep Imaskar (and according to some, High Imaskar)
* All those drow cities
* The Church of Bane
* The Eminence of Araunt
* And even the diminished Zhentarim, given that they're led by Manshoon
And that list isn't even giving consideration to relatively local or regional threats like Muranndin, various threats in the Beastlands, the Twisted Rune, the Eldreth Veluuthra, the Night Barony of Erlkazar, the demons of Dunwood and the Fraternity of Tharos, the Mephistophelean cult threatening Skyclave, and so on, and so on, and so on...
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 21:04:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Yeah exactly...and then BOOM - mention of the Shadowfell is all over the Monster Manual, Shar is the #1 villain, modules based around it, and all. So like how we had Year of the Dragon and Year of the Drow, is this now the Year of the Shadowfell???
Well with regards to the Monster Manual--let's be fair. There are plenty of enemies in there from the Feywild too, and the various other planes. All the planes have potential dangers, not just the shadowy one. I own the 4E corebooks, and I did not notice an "over-emphasis" on the Shadowfell in the MM.
I'd also like to point out that the core Shadowfell has nothing to do with Shar. The major core deity who lives in the Shadowfell (the Raven Queen) isn't even very much like Shar--for example, she's not evil and doesn't even rule over darkness or shadows. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Sep 2008 21:14:18 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 21:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As as already been pointed out, having Mystra around was a problem because she was supposedly too powerful and her servants were everywhere. Why this is acceptable with Shar is something I fail to understand.
Not saying I agree with this viewpoint, but...
Powerful NPC villains aren't a "problem" because they are there for the PCs to destroy.
Powerful NPC heroes are a "problem" because they steal the thunder from the PCs.
Again, I'm not saying those statements aren't faulty, I'm just saying that's the reason why bad guys aren't considered a "problem" for gameplay. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Sep 2008 21:09:47 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 11:22:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Well with regards to the Monster Manual--let's be fair. There are plenty of enemies in there from the Feywild too, and the various other planes. All the planes have potential dangers, not just the shadowy one. I own the 4E corebooks, and I did not notice an "over-emphasis" on the Shadowfell in the MM.
I haven't read the Monster Manual cover to cover so I guess I am wrong on that point. I guess I just happened to read up on more monsters that have the Shadowfell mentioned than anything else (or maybe I was just noticicing it more because its a new name for an old place.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'd also like to point out that the core Shadowfell has nothing to do with Shar. The major core deity who lives in the Shadowfell (the Raven Queen) isn't even very much like Shar--for example, she's not evil and doesn't even rule over darkness or shadows.
Yeah I was merely pointing out that the Shadowfell is a highlighted place (now that's an oxymoron) prevalent not just in the realms.
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 11:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As as already been pointed out, having Mystra around was a problem because she was supposedly too powerful and her servants were everywhere. Why this is acceptable with Shar is something I fail to understand.
Not saying I agree with this viewpoint, but...
Powerful NPC villains aren't a "problem" because they are there for the PCs to destroy.
Powerful NPC heroes are a "problem" because they steal the thunder from the PCs.
Again, I'm not saying those statements aren't faulty, I'm just saying that's the reason why bad guys aren't considered a "problem" for gameplay.
True that! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 15:22:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I haven't read the Monster Manual cover to cover so I guess I am wrong on that point. I guess I just happened to read up on more monsters that have the Shadowfell mentioned than anything else (or maybe I was just noticicing it more because its a new name for an old place.
True, and it could be a case of confirmation bias (do not take that as an insult, btw--everyone falls victim to confirmation bias now and then, myself included). I didn't actually count what monsters where from what plane, but they seemed pretty evenly distributed to me.
quote:
Yeah I was merely pointing out that the Shadowfell is a highlighted place (now that's an oxymoron) prevalent not just in the realms.
Perhaps it started off that way, but I think as time goes on it won't seem so focused on, by the core material and perhaps not even by the FR material. The first core adventure involved the Shadowfell, but I don't think subsequently released adventures did as well. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
* The Elturgard Paladins and its Church of Amaunator (y'know, depending on your leanings and how far they'll eventually go--Children of Light, etc)
OT but -- more stupid/evil/bigoted paladins? Hasn't that horse been beaten to death yet?
Just once I'd like to see paladins being used as antagonists who aren't either dupes or fanatics.
Sorry, it's just something that leaves me rolling my eyes in disgust. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
[
OT but -- more stupid/evil/bigoted paladins? Hasn't that horse been beaten to death yet?
Just once I'd like to see paladins being used as antagonists who aren't either dupes or fanatics.
Sorry, it's just something that leaves me rolling my eyes in disgust.
Yeah, well, to be fair, my inclusion of them on the list might be reflective of my own personal prejudices about that trope than what's actually in the text.  |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 14:35:56
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| I'm not fond of Elturgard, myself. I'm biased too, though, as I've done something different with that region in my own Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 22:51:45
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| The Plane of Shadow is one of many elements of D&D that Gary Gygax conceived, briefly mentioned, wasn't able to detail in print at TSR as his time got taken up running the company and he was then forced out by the Blumes, and TSR later published quite divergent versions of. Some of the ideas that were going to go into the Shadowland module co-written with Skip Williams appeared in a section of City of Hawks, which is essential reading to understand the Shadow Plane as Gary conceived it. And far more compelling, to me, than Wizards' abuse of Netheril. |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Oct 2008 22:54:53 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 11:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
And far more compelling, to me, than Wizards' abuse of Netheril.
After the whole Karsus fiasco, Netheril is now impervious to any and all sorts of abuse  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 17:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Yeah exactly...and then BOOM - mention of the Shadowfell is all over the Monster Manual, Shar is the #1 villain, modules based around it, and all. So like how we had Year of the Dragon and Year of the Drow, is this now the Year of the Shadowfell???
Well with regards to the Monster Manual--let's be fair. There are plenty of enemies in there from the Feywild too, and the various other planes. All the planes have potential dangers, not just the shadowy one. I own the 4E corebooks, and I did not notice an "over-emphasis" on the Shadowfell in the MM.
I'd also like to point out that the core Shadowfell has nothing to do with Shar. The major core deity who lives in the Shadowfell (the Raven Queen) isn't even very much like Shar--for example, she's not evil and doesn't even rule over darkness or shadows.
Well the thing that astonishes people most about the treatment of Shar in 4e is that she was a deity who did everything in the shadows. With 4e she is standing "in the light" and pretty openly. This has people pretty confused as to the why of it, since usually "an old dog doesnt learn new tricks" and doesnt change behaviour easily. Going from "hidden" to "Evil #1 Supergoddess" is a 180 degree turn there. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 18:10:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Yeah exactly...and then BOOM - mention of the Shadowfell is all over the Monster Manual, Shar is the #1 villain, modules based around it, and all. So like how we had Year of the Dragon and Year of the Drow, is this now the Year of the Shadowfell???
Well with regards to the Monster Manual--let's be fair. There are plenty of enemies in there from the Feywild too, and the various other planes. All the planes have potential dangers, not just the shadowy one. I own the 4E corebooks, and I did not notice an "over-emphasis" on the Shadowfell in the MM.
I'd also like to point out that the core Shadowfell has nothing to do with Shar. The major core deity who lives in the Shadowfell (the Raven Queen) isn't even very much like Shar--for example, she's not evil and doesn't even rule over darkness or shadows.
Well the thing that astonishes people most about the treatment of Shar in 4e is that she was a deity who did everything in the shadows. With 4e she is standing "in the light" and pretty openly. This has people pretty confused as to the why of it, since usually "an old dog doesnt learn new tricks" and doesnt change behaviour easily. Going from "hidden" to "Evil #1 Supergoddess" is a 180 degree turn there.
Not only that, but the three supermodules at the end of 3.x kept mentioning "Shar's coming weakness". We have yet to see any signs of that; by all appearances, she is stronger than ever. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 21:18:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Well the thing that astonishes people most about the treatment of Shar in 4e is that she was a deity who did everything in the shadows. With 4e she is standing "in the light" and pretty openly. This has people pretty confused as to the why of it, since usually "an old dog doesnt learn new tricks" and doesnt change behaviour easily. Going from "hidden" to "Evil #1 Supergoddess" is a 180 degree turn there.
Oh, you don't have to tell me that--I while back, I kept saying (partly as a joke) that Shar is WotC's favorite goddess. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 21:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not only that, but the three supermodules at the end of 3.x kept mentioning "Shar's coming weakness". We have yet to see any signs of that; by all appearances, she is stronger than ever.
That's because Shar is WotC's favorite goddess.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 13:43:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not only that, but the three supermodules at the end of 3.x kept mentioning "Shar's coming weakness". We have yet to see any signs of that; by all appearances, she is stronger than ever.
That's because Shar is WotC's favorite goddess.
They find something sexually appealing about her...she might even take over a few other portfolios in regards to that... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 17:55:29
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| I wonder if any of the current designers were 'Goth' when they were younger. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 18:54:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wonder if any of the current designers were 'Goth' when they were younger.
Makes me think that if I ever run into one, I should put my arms up (showing the "I'm a Werewolf" sign for Vampire LARPing) and see if they cower in fear...  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2008 : 04:39:31
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-Well "The Shadowfell" is my plane of Shadow in my 3E Realms now.  Just like the Feywild is also in my 3E Realms now.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Topic |
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Shadowfell
