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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 14:22:30
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This is going to be rude and gonna be awkward if Mr Salvatore sees this. Especially since I am one of his fan. I read all of his books, even the nightbird series and cleric quintet. But I was just thinking.....
What on earth is Mr Salvatore thinking? In the Orc king, he writes that the orc has civilized and is trying to live in peace. I'm not going to say how impossible it is that a barren land is able to satisfy all the traditionally blood thirsty orcs and let them settle in peace and let them forget about their grudges. That would be old hat, what I am trying to ask about all your opinion is........
Civilizing Orcs? Remember what happen when Salvatore tried to civilise the barbarians? They left in less than ten years time. Drizzt claimed that their way of life is better for them. Now apparently the same thing is happening, Orcs lifestyle is better now.
Isn't that quite a slap in the face to the barbarians. Seem to imply that they are less civilised than orcs. How much longer before the silver marches start thinking that the orcs would have a better life reverting back to their old ways? Thinking, mind you, not actually going back
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 15:13:13
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Doesn't matter.
From what I understand, the 'canon' in that novel varies greatly from the final outcome of the 4th-edition 'shake-up'. From what I gather, RAS wrote the novel with WotC's original 4e outline in mind, and as 4eFR 'morphed' during its creation cycle, the outcome in the official guide (FRCG) was quite different then the one he wrote in his novel.
In fact, in retrospect, Drizzt looks like a deranged idiot - the Orcish Kingdom of many arrows is behaving much as it did prior to The Orc King, so nothing has changed, despite what that book portrayed in the epilogues and prologue.
In light of how things turned out, the novel not only is irrelevant, but it also makes little sense. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Sep 2008 15:14:51 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 16:08:54
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I'm (as ever) behind in my reading and haven't looked at The Orc King. How did Many-Arrows act prior to the novel?
As for whether the orcs are likely to remain "civilized," well, they've lasted a hundred years. The kingdom's entry in the FRCG says that, despite a decade of split rule and few civil wars, the kingdom has been unified since 1460. Further, "King Obould XVII continues a mostly unbroken dynastic line that began when Obould strode the north, unifying disparate tribes with fire and sword." (p. 149)
So it looks like the orcs did as good or better job as a lot of other lands holding things together in the dark decades after the Spellplague.
Chataro's raising a larger point than just Obould's people, though, with his comparison to what happened to Wulfgar's kin. There's a lot of thorny questions raised with the use of words like "barbarism" and "civilization" that have been meat and drink for fantasy writers, readers, and gamers for a long time. Robert E. Howard asked those questions better than anybody, and his most famous creation is probably ventriloquizing the writer in the "Road of Kings" poem from "The Phoenix on the Sword."
What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?
I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 16:34:19
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Thanks for that quote Christopher. I will look into that book...
This makes me want to create a barbarian with one level of fighter (i.e. so as to be literate and bring to bear such beautiful quotes before he decapitates his ennemies...)
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 05:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Thanks for that quote Christopher. I will look into that book...
This makes me want to create a barbarian with one level of fighter (i.e. so as to be literate and bring to bear such beautiful quotes before he decapitates his ennemies...)
For ideas on playing a barbarian, REH and Robert Jordan portrayed Conan the best...in my opinion. If I were ANYONE on this list I would look into novels and stories by these two men...specifically having to do with Conan's Hyboria though...Jordan lost me with THE wheel.
More on topic:
One of the worst things I've seen so far is the establishment of a semi-peaceful orc kingdom. I can see a kingdom mind you...just not one in the practice of peace and trade.
As far as civilization goes though...I don't think anyone would still call the Kingdom of Many Arrows civilized by the typical term. A Kingdom perhaps, but I don't see it as civilized at all. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 22 Sep 2008 06:05:56 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 07:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
More fun than the level of fighter would be the level of bard. 
That would be a warrior skald, then. Of course, there is a PrC of the same name in RoF, but I think, a barbarian with bard-levels (a bardarian? ) qualifies for holding this name even without taking the PrC. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 08:48:42
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| Yes.. the idea of the civilized orcs sound ridiculous to me also.. |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 22:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
Yes.. the idea of the civilized orcs sound ridiculous to me also..
Warcraft pulls it of beautifully in my opinion. Still, I'm not that warm on the idea of civilized orcs in the Realms. It's within the realm of possibility, but sometimes it feels as if Wizards took a look at Chris Metzens creation, saw the gargantuan piles of money Blizzard was raking in, and decided to copy it pronto. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 01:47:20
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See, in The Orc King, we learn that the orcs in the Kingdom of Many-Arrows don't just become civilized, they become "goodly" and a beacon of hope in the Silver Marches area. We even get a snapshot of a female orc who is going to marry a human from that area, with the blessings of the current orc king. And Drizzt defends all these orcs against those who would try to harm them.
In the FRCG, we learn that these orcs are in fact not so great, not any kind of example to be looked up to, and their relationship with Luruar is strained at best. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 05:47:58
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| Are there any sequels to the Orc King planned? It could prove difficult for the author to reconcile the theme of good orcs established in this book with the last moment changes of the FRCG detailing the nature of Obould's kingdom. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4216 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 06:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
See, in The Orc King, we learn that the orcs in the Kingdom of Many-Arrows don't just become civilized, they become "goodly" and a beacon of hope in the Silver Marches area. We even get a snapshot of a female orc who is going to marry a human from that area, with the blessings of the current orc king. And Drizzt defends all these orcs against those who would try to harm them.
In the FRCG, we learn that these orcs are in fact not so great, not any kind of example to be looked up to, and their relationship with Luruar is strained at best.
Exactly...
I guess Drizzt was just fooled...the great swordsman, finally undone by an orc. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 13:26:19
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What exactly are you guys looking at in the FRCG beyond the Many-Arrows entry about the current stance of the orc kingdom? It's certainly not portrayed as a beacon of justice and hope in that entry, but it's no more or less so than many other political entities.
Compare:
From the Many-Arrows entry: "The Kingdom of Many-Arrows exists alongside the dwarves and humans of the North in tenuous peace. These bitter enemies tolerate each other most of the time, even trading, and see occasional friendships aries. Even so, the area could explode into war any second, and has done so from time to time." (p. 149)
Elturgard, the theocratic state ruled by paladins of the Lawful Good greater god, Torm: "In some quarters, Elturgard has garnered a reputation for being too righteous. Many problems attend its inflexible laws, inquisitorial persecution of evil, and bold plans for 'setting Faerûn aright.'" (p. 124)
And Cormyr: Though the nation has a reputation for just rule, sometimes Cormyr has had to make difficult choices to ensure its security...Cormyr reluctantly grew into an imperial power. The kingdom annexed some Sembian cities, resettled parts of Tilver's Gap, and pushed southwest into the Dragon Coast. The thief-ruled city of Proskur was also brought under Cormyr's thumb." (p. 104)
And so on... I don't see anything (yet) to indicate that Many-Arrows has become a "bad guy" state, to my way of thinking anyway. Not any more than some of the "good guy" states.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 22 Sep 2008 13:30:31 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 13:45:35
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| But the tone of The Orc King implies that the peace is not 'tenous' but a lasting peace and that the Orc Kingdom is a beacon of goodness alongside Mithral Hall and Silverymoon in the North. Hence, the chasm between the fiction and the FRCG. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:03:17
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| Is The Orc King the one with a prologue and epilogue set in the Year of the Ageless One (or post Spellplague at least)? |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Yes it is.
Okay, so the tone you mention is set in the prologue and epilogue, then? Is that where the marriage somebody talked about above is mentioned as well? |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:10:05
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| Yes, a orc woman is set to marry a human man. There's a bunch of 'hate-mongers' looking to make trouble that Drizzt breaks up. And the current Orc king is detailed as a character that is more of a wise ruler looking to keep his lands secure and civilized. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
And so on... I don't see anything (yet) to indicate that Many-Arrows has become a "bad guy" state, to my way of thinking anyway. Not any more than some of the "good guy" states.
Is Many-Arrows somehow "better", though, just because some other states are (arguably) just as bad? In my opinion it isn't--in any case, the description in the FRCG just doesn't seem to "jive" with the description of the Many-Arrows in The Orc King (at least not to me, and some other people here). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 22 Sep 2008 14:22:15 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:51:49
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Thanks for the info, Ashe, and the insight, Rinonalyrna. As has been said, it seems obvious that the conception of Many-Arrows changed sometime between when Bob Salvatore finished his book and the final set of edits for the RPG materials. What's the usual project of the Keep in these cases? To find a way to reconcile opposing lore? Go with the last published? I'm sure this happens quite a bit.
And, no, Many-Arrows is no better than any other state (though in the case of Elturgard I suppose there's a conversation to be had about claimed superiority and the ethics of exporting an ethos.)
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Thanks for the info, Ashe, and the insight, Rinonalyrna.
You're welcome.
quote:
As has been said, it seems obvious that the conception of Many-Arrows changed sometime between when Bob Salvatore finished his book and the final set of edits for the RPG materials. What's the usual project of the Keep in these cases? To find a way to reconcile opposing lore? Go with the last published? I'm sure this happens quite a bit.
I think it does--at least, it's certainly nothing new.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
See, in The Orc King, we learn that the orcs in the Kingdom of Many-Arrows don't just become civilized, they become "goodly" and a beacon of hope in the Silver Marches area. We even get a snapshot of a female orc who is going to marry a human from that area, with the blessings of the current orc king. And Drizzt defends all these orcs against those who would try to harm them.
In the FRCG, we learn that these orcs are in fact not so great, not any kind of example to be looked up to, and their relationship with Luruar is strained at best.
Exactly...
I guess Drizzt was just fooled...the great swordsman, finally undone by an orc.
Yes, but an orc weilding more powerfull magic weapons and armor the D, or The king would have died in thir duel. Hard to beat that "Magis Glass" in his helm that acts like a bulletproof windshield!
And who would "feel" more for a "misunderstood" Orc than Guilt ridden Drizzt?
It was inevetable someone/thing would take advantage of him. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:20:19
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| I honestly don't think Drizzt was 'fooled', because RAS was working with information that was correct at the time. When Wasbro changed their minds on the Orc kingdom, it was too late to 'rewrite' the story. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:32:08
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As I said above, I think Ashe's assumption about the whys and wherefores of the seeming contradiction(s) are correct, though I have a perhaps more generous view of the complicated design decisions behind the changes and of the folks who made those decisions  .
That said, again, this has almost certainly been happening with more or less regularity since published Realmslore began appearing under bylines other than Ed's. Is part of the project here at Candlekeep, as y'all each envision it, an attempt at reconciliation or explaining these kinds of inconsistencies and contradictions? (Beyond understanding the real world reasons behind them, I mean, which is actually probably the easier task). |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:55:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
See, in The Orc King, we learn that the orcs in the Kingdom of Many-Arrows don't just become civilized, they become "goodly" and a beacon of hope in the Silver Marches area. We even get a snapshot of a female orc who is going to marry a human from that area, with the blessings of the current orc king. And Drizzt defends all these orcs against those who would try to harm them.
In the FRCG, we learn that these orcs are in fact not so great, not any kind of example to be looked up to, and their relationship with Luruar is strained at best.
Thank You for elaborating on the pont I was making above -
It appears as if RAS wrote the story with one possible future in mind, and then WotC went a completely different way.
Once again, we see another consistency problem rearing it's head with 4eFR - it's as if everyone involved in its creation is picturing it differently, it seems. 
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Is part of the project here at Candlekeep, as y'all each envision it, an attempt at reconciliation or explaining these kinds of inconsistencies and contradictions? (Beyond understanding the real world reasons behind them, I mean, which is actually probably the easier task).
There is a point where our skills are strained to the point of breaking.
There's a difference between trying to make some sense out of Lost, and trying to make sense of Gilligan's Island. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Sep 2008 16:58:45 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 17:41:17
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| So, there haven't been any similar instances--or even groupings of instances--at other points in the history of the published Realms? The word "egregious" is probably a bit heavy handed considering what we're talking about (continuity flaps in a fictional universe), but if one were to use it (and heck, here one goes!), it seems like similarly egregious lapses--especially between the novels and the gaming products--could be identified going back to the beginning of the novel line, which R.A. Salvatore, of course, helped launch. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 22 Sep 2008 17:42:44 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 17:46:01
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| Yeah I remember reading scrolls hear when some of his book events did not jibe with the silver marches supplement. As for me I just see RA as being on a different playing level than most others and try not to let such instances stop me from enjoying a good book. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 18:19:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thank You for elaborating on the pont I was making above -
You're welcome. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:10:35
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| I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional. Honestly, thinking that Orcs can be peaceful? |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:33:34
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| Or, we can just ignore the prologue and epilogue of the Orc King and keep the bits in between as relevant. These inconsistencies (in Realmslore) are what has really turned me off to WotC. And (IMO) the new edition is chock full of them. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 23:26:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Circular karma about the orc king
