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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 14:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me.
If it's good enough for Elminster, it's a good explanation for Drizzt(and his journals).
Ok, so to sum up, Drizzt is insane and has been for quite sometime and we should not take anything he says or does(since accounts of his actions come from him) at face value. He is highly unreliable!
And actually that can more than explain any continuity issues concerning our dual weilding drow and his account of the orc king. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 14:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
Civilizing Orcs? Remember what happen when Salvatore tried to civilise the barbarians? They left in less than ten years time. Drizzt claimed that their way of life is better for them. Now apparently the same thing is happening, Orcs lifestyle is better now.
Isn't that quite a slap in the face to the barbarians. Seem to imply that they are less civilised than orcs. How much longer before the silver marches start thinking that the orcs would have a better life reverting back to their old ways? Thinking, mind you, not actually going back
I likes my savage peoples to be savage... not civil. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 16:39:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me.
If it's good enough for Elminster, it's a good explanation for Drizzt(and his journals).
Ok, so to sum up, Drizzt is insane and has been for quite sometime and we should not take anything he says or does(since accounts of his actions come from him) at face value. He is highly unreliable!
And actually that can more than explain any continuity issues concerning our dual weilding drow and his account of the orc king.
I would appreciate if this did not become yet another Drizzt-bashing thread. He has his flaws, I will admit, but I still like the guy and if it weren't for him there is a good chance the Realms would not have become as popular as it has. Please leave him his dignity, whatever amount of it he has. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:00:09
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| I'm just joking around. I enjoy poking fun at Drizzt, but that doesn't mean I "hate" the character or don't recognize that he's responsible for at least some of the setting's popularity. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 14:34:51
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I like drizzt but I just can't help but wonder what drizzt is thinking. Supporting Orcs civilising while saying that saying that it isn't good for civilising. Especially since there are some fundamental problems which haven't been solved yet. Or at least it hasn't been addressed yet.
What makes the orc a horde is the fact that the food supply can't match the orc's reproduction habit. How are they gonna solve this problem even with a kingdom?
An orc kingdom may be accepted though grudgingly. But how do they treat their other allies?
1) Goblin
2) Giant
3) Trolls
4) Any other missing?
While dwarfs may tolerate orc, whats stopping elves from filling goblin with arrows or dwarven war axes?
Do they have any inkling what is going to happen when orc starts to outnumber human kind a hundred to 1? Even Obould himself admitted that he disliked the alliance.
Elves and Dwarves being more cunning are going to cheat the orcs in business deals.
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 15:25:59
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
I've got a way to reconcile the two sources. Drizzy is delusional.
Works for me.
If it's good enough for Elminster, it's a good explanation for Drizzt(and his journals).
Ok, so to sum up, Drizzt is insane and has been for quite sometime and we should not take anything he says or does(since accounts of his actions come from him) at face value. He is highly unreliable!
And actually that can more than explain any continuity issues concerning our dual weilding drow and his account of the orc king.
I would appreciate if this did not become yet another Drizzt-bashing thread. He has his flaws, I will admit, but I still like the guy and if it weren't for him there is a good chance the Realms would not have become as popular as it has. Please leave him his dignity, whatever amount of it he has.
Hey, no bashing intended D is still my favorite character to read about, I was being serious giving a possible reason to explain any contiuity issues in his books(like his view of many arrows vs wha has come out lately). After Darkwalker on Moonshae, I think the next "set" of FR books I read was Icewind Dale trilogy, and I have re-read them many, many times. So , please don't mistake me for a Drizzt/RA Basher, I appreciate them both!
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 24 Sep 2008 15:26:52 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 16:36:15
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| I just don't see why WotC's making the prologue and epilogue irrelevant makes the actual story irrelevant as well. And I think that it was clearly detailed in the book why Drizzt made the decision he did. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 19:42:04
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I don't see this contradiction or inconsistency that others have alluded to earlier in this scroll. Maybe it is indeed there, but no one has provided any conclusive evidence of it to me, as of yet.
I too am irked by Drizzt's insistence that orcs can indeed be civilized. I liken that to religious faith: belief in what one emotionally wants to be true, rather than what one has evidence to justify believing to be true. Drizzt is becoming, in some ways, a pacifist hippy. Somebody should weave some flowers into that long flowing white mane of his. Maybe teach him to sing "Kum Bah Yah" while skipping around the furnaces of Mithral Hall...
That being said, the Obould dynastic line seems to be the crux of this orc-civilization movement. Something has gotten up the Oboulds' collective butts about uniting them with the other races (whether divine or mundane in origin, I dunno), and the Oboulds are spearheading that push. Drizzt is buying into it, because of some innate tendencies of his own, I guess.
But that does not necessarily mean that all orcs agree with either one of them. Some do; some don't.
The ones that go along are aroused by religious zeal and vague talk by an enthusiastic king of greatness and justice for eons of unfairness and cruelty in the past. It's just enough to get their butts moving, but not really specific at all. Typical political/religious speechifying, IMO. In The Orc King, Obould's closest general and advisor stands ready to do Obould's bidding, whether that means keeping the peace or destroying the dwarven war-party in the aftermath of the duel against Grguch. He is obviously fundamentally guided by allegiance to the charismatic orcan leader himself, rather than actually buying into any vague discussions of societal unity and brotherhood with the other races...
Recall that there were dissenters to Obould's plans even back in "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", to say nothing of TOK. Even in the Prologue, we're told that there will continue to be dissenting orcs who interfere with maximal implementation of 1371-DR Obould's vision. The Pro. specifically mentions growing influence by some of the old-school shamans and their desire for a return to the old ways.
So how is that in any way inconsistent with the the FRCS?
I believe that the orcan civilization will continue to depend on how well Obould can charismatically inspire enough of his people with his vague vision. Obviously some orcs are close enough to him for his vision to somehow continuously rub off on him. Or maybe it's just his charisma and enthusiasm? Notice that the discussion in the Pro. of the pending wedding between an orc and a human involves a princess and the king, rather than some orc commoner. We're only made privy to the views of a fellow orc in Obould's inner circle, rather than a salt-of-the-earth type of orc. How they think and feel is just a bit beyond us, at the moment.
But I do perceive there to still be plenty of angst and violence-mongering among the orcan masses. That has never gone away. RAS/WOTC have simply added a civilization-minded orc king into the mix, rather than taking away the angst and violence-mongering. So it's an unsteady civilization and peace, at best.
I thought it was especially interesting when Obould VI mentioned in the Pro. that he sorta resents the fact that the higher races seem to be indulging ongoing orc misbehavior too much, because this indulgence actually serves to interfere with orcan social progress and advancement, rather than helping. Orcs need to be taught to appreciate law and order, which means accepting that there are consequences for brutish behavior, rather than having authorities look the other way simply because they are orcs. This passage seems to show that Obould himself gets it, while quite a few other orcs certainly do not.
In the end, methinks that some of you are unnecessarily trying to drive another wedge in between RAS and the FR canon, because that's become a sort of pasttime around here. Of course it's been a justified pursuit at various times in the past. But based on what little info you've presented here thus far, I think y'all are reaching, in this case. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 22:05:26
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Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....* |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 10 Oct 2008 22:06:44 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:17:06
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| LOL Arion! LOL! if you're banned for that, well... the joke was worth it! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:31:22
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If bad jokes were a bannable offense, then I'd've been banned three times over, at least.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Notice that the discussion in the Pro. of the pending wedding between an orc and a human involves a princess and the king, rather than some orc commoner.
Actually, I don't recall the the text saying that the female orc was a "princess". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 10 Oct 2008 23:40:08 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 23:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....*
That was funny. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 05:30:08
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| Meh, I have my moments. Of course, they're few and far between. :) |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2008 : 19:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
More fun than the level of fighter would be the level of bard. 
Egil Skallagrimsson? Is that you?
Hmm, didn't the 3rd ed Races of Faerun book have a prestige class that was basically a sort of Viking skald? A barbarian/bard crossover? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 01:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
More fun than the level of fighter would be the level of bard.
Egil Skallagrimsson? Is that you?
Hmm, didn't the 3rd ed Races of Faerun book have a prestige class that was basically a sort of Viking skald? A barbarian/bard crossover?
Yes -- the "Warrior Skald." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 01:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Actually, I don't recall the the text saying that the female orc was a "princess".
Actually, you're quite right. 
My other points still stand, though. RAS still said plenty about how the Kingdom of Many-Arrows ain't so hot in the future, after all. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 04:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....*
And upon that day, fangirls of that pair will squee in joy
Thank you for the laugh  |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2008 : 10:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Drizzt is delusional? I think you're all forgetting the inevitable.
We all know that at the end of the Drizzt series Salvatore will cut to a scene with Zaknafien sitting straight up in his bed after spending the night with Malice and saying: "GAH! What a horrible nightmare...I dreamt I had a son with a serious savior complex who palled around with dwarves and made a pact with an orc king...."
And then Jarlaxle will roll over and say: "What was that, honey?"
:D
*sits...waits for ban....*
Okay... that was hilarious. Let's hope it gets seriously considered by RAS. Actually, it would also be an easy Sellplague reset too... rewind the Realms to the year of Drizzt's birth... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Circular karma about the orc king
