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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 10:51:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraerquote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Every D&D player *should have* the chance to go through several phases in his gaming life:
But not everyone does. Rules-lawyering and rules-manipulation are orthogonal to the basic RPG experience, and don't appeal to everyone -- especially if they're not presented with the false idea that 'true roleplaying' is something advanced and virtuous and difficult.
Its not about "true roleplaying is superior", but rather about offering players the choice between gaming styles. Kinda like eating a tomato sandwich and then deciding you dont like it instead of deciding before you tried one OR - even worse - not being given the chance to try one.
Rules-lawyering is a dead end IMO and you are so fixated on the rules that you cant really focus on "the story" (The Gamers: Dorkness Rising makes this absolutely clear IMO.). Tactical Gaming (which I mention in phase 2 as well) and roleplaying do not really exclude themselves and are useful at different times for reasons explained below.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraerquote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Well the point of a "dungeon crawl module" isnt really to give many opportunities for actual roleplaying, but rather a focus on the roll-playing and tactical aspect of the game. The only place for roleplaying is at the beginning to uncover hints about the targeted area . . .
Roleplaying isn't just talking to NPCs, and you don't stop playing your character when she explores and fights. Look at the 'dungeon crawl' segments of Elminster: The Making of a Mage, The Temptation of Elminster, Swords of Eveningstar, or "Oroon Rising". How well the 4E rules or Scepter Tower of Spellgard facilitate other-than-tactical play, I don't know.
Its all nice for an author to "vividly describe a heroes every move in a fight", but its a totally different thing for Joe-Average. Most people simply dont have the talent to make every fight sound interesting and if you repeat your phrases it gets automatic and boring. Thats why I stopped reading Drizzt-novels after a time: I got bored by the "mesmerizing dance of death", which meant that a few lines after the opponent would be dead. So keeping in "roleplaying mode" during fights is HARD (but not impossible) and it might not be a good choice to do since fights are complicated sometimes and take enough time already.
Sticking in "roleplaying mode" during a fight reminds me of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, where Arthur Dent crash landed on a prehistoric earth with some Hairdressers and other people with equally useful professions. These people - after forming some committees - got around to "inventing the wheel". Two weeks later they hadnt invented it yet, because they couldnt agree on the color ... IMO there is a time when roleplaying is practical and there are others where it simply gets in the way of getting on with the "big story". The non-violent encounters in a module
So in the end I would think that the best campaign is one where there is a balance between roleplaying (which probably needs more time) and dungeons (= tactical gaming). The rules for 4e seem to make it clear that roleplaying isnt a focus of the game and that its more or less trying to deny the players that tomato sandwich. Talking doesnt earn money, but new mins and modules does and so the modules are filled with neat looking stats and tactical info instead of stuff which lets the NPCs come alive. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 14:04:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Is it a booklet like the H series modules? I just ordered it from Amazon (where it's sixteen bucks, by the way), and they list it as a hardcover.
My long-suffering UPS lady dropped it off yesterday, and it is, in fact, in the same form factor as the H series modules. I haven't really delved into it yet, and kind of doubt I will get very far before the big brown truck drops off the FRPG and Adventurer's Vault (ornithopters!!) later this morning. But, when I do, I'll check back in here... |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 14:58:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
How well the 4E rules or Scepter Tower of Spellgard facilitate other-than-tactical play, I don't know.
I haven't played a 4E game yet, but I do have the rulebooks, and my opinion is that if a player wants to roleplay, they can do that using the 4E rules just as easily as they could with some other system. In fact, the PHB even has a few sections about developing a PC's character (as in personality, goals, and so forth). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 02:47:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Rules-lawyering and rules-manipulation are orthogonal to the basic RPG experience, and don't appeal to everyone.
That's not been my experience over the years.
I'd say rules manipulation and rules- lawyering (something *all* players do to some degree) are basic parts of play that for most (not just some or a few) are actual phases of the roleplaying experience one goes through over time.
For most, these phases even out and help a gamer develop better roleplaying and gaming skills opposite his or her friends as more experience is accumulated. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2008 : 16:49:11
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| If that happens for most, it's through historical accident. In my experience the mentality of rules abuse is incomprehensible to people who haven't been enculturated to it. Exploiting a ruleset is just a different modality and experience from playing a fictional character. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 06:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
If that happens for most, it's through historical accident. In my experience the mentality of rules abuse is incomprehensible to people who haven't been enculturated to it. Exploiting a ruleset is just a different modality and experience from playing a fictional character.
Rules can be designed in a way that "exploiting" them leads to very exciting play. Of course I'm not talking about heavy calvinball AD&D here.
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 11:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
*Wooly casts Find Topic on this thread*
And, unfortunately, the thread makes its saving throw.  |
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Module Excerpts: Scepter Tower of Spellgard
