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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 14:12:46
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Excerpts at wizards.com include the adventure introduction, several encounters, a "player's adventure log," and selections from the Analects of Kuryon, described as a "cycle of poems regarding prophecy and the nature of the future...composed by Kuryon, first master of the Monastery of the Precipice."
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 14:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Excerpts at wizards.com include the adventure introduction, several encounters, a "player's adventure log," and selections from the Analects of Kuryon, described as a "cycle of poems regarding prophecy and the nature of the future...composed by Kuryon, first master of the Monastery of the Precipice."
Alaundo! Someone's trying to steal your job!! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 14:35:32
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I dont think I would ever get used to having every power described in detail whenever it is listed ... like needing several lines of text for a "longsword" for the skeltons and their leader and the same for "Speed of the Dead". This really seems a waste of space and made for people who cant be bothered to remember such details (and why should we have to, we always forget that stuff right away, eh?). It truly shows 4e is for the "casual gamer" who simply doesnt want to get involved that much into the game to be bothered to remember / learn how the rules work.
The adventure log is ridiculous IMO, because if it was a truly good encounter the space offered there isnt nearly enough. You could use several lines, but why not use a blank sheet of paper instead which doesnt try to fit you into a "size" (of lines) which doesnt fit you?
Again not too impressive. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 15:04:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I dont think I would ever get used to having every power described in detail whenever it is listed ... like needing several lines of text for a "longsword" for the skeltons and their leader and the same for "Speed of the Dead". This really seems a waste of space and made for people who cant be bothered to remember such details (and why should we have to, we always forget that stuff right away, eh?). It truly shows 4e is for the "casual gamer" who simply doesnt want to get involved that much into the game to be bothered to remember / learn how the rules work.
Well, of course this is one of your criticisms of 4E in general, and to some might seem out of place here, as it doesn't address this module in particular.
That said, I've personally found the stat block style of monster/NPC presentation very helpful as a DM--in fact it's one of my favorite things about the new encounter designs. Everything I need to know is right there at a glance. And of course, repetition is one of the great aides-mémoire, so maybe if I just keep trying, I'll one day graduate from the ranks of "people who cant be bothered to remember such details." 
Cheers,
Christopher "Least Likely to be Casual" Rowe
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 15:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Well, of course this is one of your criticisms of 4E in general, and to some might seem out of place here, as it doesn't address this module in particular.
That said, I've personally found the stat block style of monster/NPC presentation very helpful as a DM--in fact it's one of my favorite things about the new encounter designs. Everything I need to know is right there at a glance. And of course, repetition is one of the great aides-mémoire, so maybe if I just keep trying, I'll one day graduate from the ranks of "people who cant be bothered to remember such details."
It doesnt apply here? Nice of you to be the judge! Well having the statblocks of two simple versions of skeletons blown up to cover almost one half of a page might look "neat" and "convenient" to you, but what happens when you do that with a level 25 wizard, his 18th level bodyguard fighter, the group of 15 elite troopers and an assortment of trash? That would probably require several pages. I mean one advantage of 4e is that you dont have hundreds of spells for the wizard, BUT they screw up and waste that advantage by blowing up the description of every power.
One of the big advantages of being a DM is that youre always right! And even if you screwed up and used a spell / feat wrong your players mostly wont know that (unless they use meta-knowledge). So IMO it is not really required to have a full and precise listing of everything to ensure you "get it right".
Any product which a roleplaying company publishes has to follow the general rules of minmaxing the content vs. cost balance. So from the companys standpoint you want to print as few pages as possible to keep cost low. With these overblown and unnecessary repetitions of text the space on the pages has to come from somewhere and I can only think of one thing: the "story" (descriptions of landscape, actions, relationships, ...). That is not a good thing IMO.
So in the interest of the company and the quality of 4e I would think not having these repetitions would help to increase the quality by allowing more space for actual content of a module. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 16:43:28
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| I think what we need to remember before we are too critical of this module(not that it doesn't deserve any) is the fact that as far as WOTC is concerned they are writing for a first time audience, without all the knowledge we have accumulated. So, they will be for some amount of time, much repetition and publishing of things that most of us deem basic and well known knowledge. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 17:05:02
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Thanks for the link!
As you all know, I'm no fan of the 4E FR setting. That said, I really like the hook for this adventure (your PC is adventuring to get an important question answered), and the picture of Saharel is pretty nice too. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 18:47:38
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| Good stuff. I will be buying this book, full of stat blocks or not. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2008 : 23:04:00
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| I thought that it is an OK adventure from the extracts I've seen. The hook is a good one and the encounters seem clearly described and suitable for the suggested level of PCs. I thought the picture of Lady Saharel was adequate. The only thing I really dislike is the current 'D&D house style' of 4e books, but that's purely a matter of my personal taste. I have to say though that I'm not a great fan of published D&D adventures; never have been. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 10:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I dont think I would ever get used to having every power described in detail whenever it is listed ... like needing several lines of text for a "longsword" for the skeltons and their leader and the same for "Speed of the Dead". This really seems a waste of space and made for people who cant be bothered to remember such details (and why should we have to, we always forget that stuff right away, eh?). It truly shows 4e is for the "casual gamer" who simply doesnt want to get involved that much into the game to be bothered to remember / learn how the rules work.
The adventure log is ridiculous IMO, because if it was a truly good encounter the space offered there isnt nearly enough. You could use several lines, but why not use a blank sheet of paper instead which doesnt try to fit you into a "size" (of lines) which doesnt fit you?
Again not too impressive.
Wizards started duplicating material within their books years ago. Take a look at The Stronghold Builder's Guide: paragraph after paragraph duplicated, the only difference being the words "Basic," "Fancy," and "Luxury" and their frequently-repeated formulae. Ever since Hasbro took over their books have included "sample NPCs" who are nothing but copies of the text which has just been printed, but with the NPC's name in place of some generic pronoun (and frequently of a sufficiently low level that the NPC doesn't have a higher-level ability which needs explication -- explication which doesn't appear because they have just regurgitated all of the lower- and mid-level abilities). Ptui!
That said (or vented), tell us, Hasbro: just what legitimate (i.e. pre-Chaos influx Spellplague) Realmslore about Lady Saharel and Spellgard is there in this TWENTY-FIVE DOLLAR, 96-page booklet, hmmm? From what I can see, the Lady Saharel, once a mighty Netherese Arcanist, an Archlich from whom Elminster sought help, whom a whole caravan of Zhents was unable to defeat, has been reduced to a carnival side-show "Madame Zelda Gypsy Fortune Teller" machine: insert a copper nib and have your fortune told! Does the artwork include a young William Shatner-type offering her coins to find out if it's safe for him to leave yet? Spellgard reduced to a circus spook house with scary skeletons to frighten 1st level "adventurers"? I say again: Ptui!
Previously I said that I might buy this for the maps of Spellgard and then run it as it should be run: as a fearsome Netherese ruin full of menace for the mightiest adventures, not a "Saharel the Friendly Ghost" Saturday morning cartoon-a-thon. The maps, however, are crap! There. I said it. Not "carp," but crap. I had to enlarge the introduction map to 300% before it even became legible! I say for a third time: PTUI!
This was one Realms.New.Coke module I was going to buy, but this excerpt shows what a heap of carp it is -- and from talented people, no less! There's absolutely no excuse for garbage like this. If Hasbro wanted to create a fun house for testosterone-charged thirteen-year-olds, why didn't they just create a new campaign setting, or trash the "standard" D&D setting of Greyhawk? Why did they have to rape one of the most sophisticated game settings in existence, one which has decades of lore behind it, and a solid base of fans, most of them fairly mature and many downright sophisticated? Bah! I fart in the general direction of Renton!
I buy my 3.$ books on eBay and used from Amazon and I still feel cheated four out of five times when I see how little of their $25+ MSRP books is actually new, useful, and -- to my mind -- legitimate text. 4.New.Coke just carries the tendency which they have long exhibited to a new depth of money-grubbing and price-gouging. I iterate: I have told my players to buy none of this crap, because I will buy what little of it may have some value. This ... thing looks to be worth about five bucks American to me -- First Class postage included. That's my standing offer for this misbegotten stillbirth -- complete, mind you! -- and payable only after delivery.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Edited by - Jamallo Kreen on 10 Sep 2008 11:48:52 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:35:48
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| Now that I looked at it, the Adventure Log for players is kind of wasted somewhat. When I first read about it, I thought it was a place for quest logging, but it turns out to be ENCOUNTER logging with very simple info (monsters fought and xp earned)....I prefer quest logging (key persons met, important occurences, stuff like that)....I think the encounter log is a glorified Kill Count (which would please most of my fellow players though lol)....still looks like a good adventure. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 10 Sep 2008 11:36:30 |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 11:54:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Now that I looked at it, the Adventure Log for players is kind of wasted somewhat. When I first read about it, I thought it was a place for quest logging, but it turns out to be ENCOUNTER logging with very simple info (monsters fought and xp earned)....I prefer quest logging (key persons met, important occurences, stuff like that)....I think the encounter log is a glorified Kill Count (which would please most of my fellow players though lol)....still looks like a good adventure.
Its horses for courses really. I do think, upon reading the excepts and the comments above, that some people have grasped the wrong end of the stick. It really is an introductory adventure.
I played in an LFR game at Gencon UK where two of the other players were a mother and a son (the son was about 14 I think). The mother was an excellent RPer but all the son cared about was keeping track (sometimes very vocally) of how many 'monsters' he killed. As if the whole thing was WoW or something...
It was irritating as buggery though, and I could see that even the mother was starting to get annoyed by his behaviour, but these people are the future of our hobby.
And if something is triggered in that 14 year old and he decides to dig deeper down into the lore and become a great RPer...then that makes four hours of occasional momentary discomfort worth it.
Bah, I'm getting too reasonable nowadays... ;-) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 12:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
And if something is triggered in that 14 year old and he decides to dig deeper down into the lore and become a great RPer...then that makes four hours of occasional momentary discomfort worth it.
Bah, I'm getting too reasonable nowadays... ;-)
That possible trigger is why a couple of teachers and I will be trying to get some games going to teach some kids at our school the D&D game (slowly transitioning them from board games to some hack n slash in D&D and introduce the RP aspect). The future must be saved now!! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 13:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
...this TWENTY-FIVE DOLLAR, 96-page booklet,
Is it a booklet like the H series modules? I just ordered it from Amazon (where it's sixteen bucks, by the way), and they list it as a hardcover. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 10 Sep 2008 13:49:25 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 14:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
...this TWENTY-FIVE DOLLAR, 96-page booklet,
Is it a booklet like the H series modules? I just ordered it from Amazon (where it's sixteen bucks, by the way), and they list it as a hardcover.
Thanks for that, it made my decison easy. This for $16 or Mistshore and Blackstaff Tower for a bit less. I will go for the novels and hopefully get 650-700 pages of goodness.
But to be fair , I realize it's not an apples to apples comparison, and I wont try to talk anyone out of buying it! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 15:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Thanks for that, it made my decison easy. This for $16 or Mistshore and Blackstaff Tower for a bit less. I will go for the novels and hopefully get 650-700 pages of goodness.
But to be fair , I realize it's not an apples to apples comparison, and I wont try to talk anyone out of buying it!
I did both!
And I can guarantee at least 140 pages of goodness, as that's how far into Mistshore I've read. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 15:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
If Hasbro wanted to create a fun house for testosterone-charged thirteen-year-olds, why didn't they just create a new campaign setting, or trash the "standard" D&D setting of Greyhawk? Why did they have to rape one of the most sophisticated game settings in existence, one which has decades of lore behind it, and a solid base of fans, most of them fairly mature and many downright sophisticated?
Forgotten Realms has a known Brand Name. IMO no other reason.
Don't hold back Jamallo, tell us what you really think  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 18:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
That possible trigger is why a couple of teachers and I will be trying to get some games going to teach some kids at our school the D&D game (slowly transitioning them from board games to some hack n slash in D&D and introduce the RP aspect). The future must be saved now!!
I really don't think the way to teach roleplaying is to do a bait and switch: 'This is a board game! Actually, it's not really!' Better to establish the RPG as something distinct from board games or computer games as commonly played. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2008 : 19:02:22
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Um... one of the greatest methods of teaching is the bait and switch. Show the students something they really love and use it to teach them something completely different.
Why do you think word problems were created in the first place? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 00:03:28
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| They already have something they really love: make-believe. What purpose does the board game serve here? |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 00:38:13
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| The only decent (or rather, passable) map was of the 'Kitchens' -- the rest of them were just square chambers. In fact, most of the maps in WoTC publications in the last two or three years have reminded me (in a negative way) of the maps in the first D&D modules, when such innovations as square chambers had not yet found their way to dungeon architecture. Since 4E has come out, this has been more of a rule than an exception -- probably since any "weirdly-shaped" chambers would just confuse poor players and DMs, who now think and calculate in 'squares'. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 00:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
That possible trigger is why a couple of teachers and I will be trying to get some games going to teach some kids at our school the D&D game (slowly transitioning them from board games to some hack n slash in D&D and introduce the RP aspect). The future must be saved now!!
I really don't think the way to teach roleplaying is to do a bait and switch: 'This is a board game! Actually, it's not really!' Better to establish the RPG as something distinct from board games or computer games as commonly played.
Its not really a bait though. The board games are an "Option" that they can take as part of their courses. Most of these kids dont even know what RP is (other than WoW...they are grade 7-8) so its really only a matter of slowly introducing it to them. Also, the image factor still exists at that age group (most think D&D is "for geeks", which is the image thing). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 01:02:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Thanks for that, it made my decison easy. This for $16 or Mistshore and Blackstaff Tower for a bit less. I will go for the novels and hopefully get 650-700 pages of goodness.
But to be fair , I realize it's not an apples to apples comparison, and I wont try to talk anyone out of buying it!
I did both!
And I can guarantee at least 140 pages of goodness, as that's how far into Mistshore I've read.
Good to hear, I like Jaliegh and plan to both pick up and start on Mistshore this weekend. (as long as I get Elric vol. 2 polished off first that is) |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 15:52:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Its not really a bait though. The board games are an "Option" that they can take as part of their courses. Most of these kids dont even know what RP is (other than WoW...they are grade 7-8) so its really only a matter of slowly introducing it to them.
The kids didn't pretend to be pirates/princesses/fairies/aliens/whatever when they were younger? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Sep 2008 15:52:53 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2008 : 18:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Its not really a bait though. The board games are an "Option" that they can take as part of their courses. Most of these kids dont even know what RP is (other than WoW...they are grade 7-8) so its really only a matter of slowly introducing it to them.
The kids didn't pretend to be pirates/princesses/fairies/aliens/whatever when they were younger?
They probably did and didn't realize they were RPing, so it'll have to be explained to them  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 00:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
That possible trigger is why a couple of teachers and I will be trying to get some games going to teach some kids at our school the D&D game (slowly transitioning them from board games to some hack n slash in D&D and introduce the RP aspect). The future must be saved now!!
I have been teaching editions of D&D to 'kids' since the late 70's.
This is the first edition I'm not jumping right on the band-wagon with. I've always enjoyed teaching others the joy of RPing, but I'm at an empasse - whereas I always presented the latest and greatest iteration of D&D to my 'pupils', because, for the most part, I didn't want them to invest in an old-edition, now I'm not so sure about things.
Previously, when a new edition of the game came out, it meant the old edition was no longer supported (although, they did support OD&D for years after 'Advanced' came out). Now, with companies like Paizo and others continuiing support for 3e/D20, is there any reason NOT to teach new players the 3e rules?
Right now, I'm still not sure which way all of this is going to go. WotC/Hasbro has the brand (D&D), and thats BIG plus for them, but I think Paizo/D20 has the love of the Fanbase, which I think will prove equally powerful.
Until I see which format will become dominant in the next two years, I can't with clear conscious continue to teach 'young people' the game.
The last time I had to make a decision like this, I went with VHS tapes. Fortunatley, I made the right decision then, since Beta eventually tanked, but it showed me something.
Beta was BETTER QUALITY, and yet it failed, do to a lack of large-scale support here in the states. I have seen this time and again in various industries.
So 4e D&D might very well become the next big thing, even if it is rather lackluster.
I think this fence I'm sitting on is getting pretty crowded these days. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2008 00:38:27 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 11:14:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Beta was BETTER QUALITY, and yet it failed, do to a lack of large-scale support here in the states. I have seen this time and again in various industries.
A very wise Professor [Material Sciences] once asked me:
What is the most important quality of any material? hardness, density, elasticity, ...?
The answer to that is very simple: The price! (Very true unless its for the military ...)
Well the "price" of the new edition was apparent to me when I handled the core rulebooks in a shop: bad design, stupid layout and tons of changes to the style of the game. Very low price IMO and it keeps on coming out in the same quality with everything. Having predetermined encounters really reminds me about the worse parts of really early D&D and my Monty Haul time. Open door - kill monsters inside - open next door and the monster there are too deaf to hear / react to fights next door. All these encounters are like a straightjacket and if the players do something unforeseen - like running away from one group of monsters and straight into another - this doesnt help the DM to react to it. Why doesnt it help it? Because you are "focused on a standard format" for running your encounters instead of being taught to be open for the unforeseen.
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Its not really a bait though. The board games are an "Option" that they can take as part of their courses. Most of these kids dont even know what RP is (other than WoW...they are grade 7-8) so its really only a matter of slowly introducing it to them.
The kids didn't pretend to be pirates/princesses/fairies/aliens/whatever when they were younger?
They probably did and didn't realize they were RPing, so it'll have to be explained to them
In my long years of roleplaying I came up with the following theory:
Every D&D player *should have* the chance to go through several phases in his gaming life:
1. Monty Haul - nothing bad can ever happen and things making sense is not as important as "fun"
2. Ruleslawyering and tactical gaming - this isnt as bad as it sounds, people just want to play the game "as written". This is the style for which 4e is written.
3. true roleplaying - you start caring more for the NPCs of the world than your own magic items and wealth.
4. the politician - This is actually a BAD step because people start manipulating others for their own benefit. This is the one phase I think should be skipped. Luckily I know only one such player. Sadly I know one player who does this.
What does this have to do with the module excerpt? Well IMO it shows the focus of 4e and that is the encounter and nothing to the left or right of it.
Take the "Kitchen encounter" for example:
- No description of what they actually do apart from "they prepare meals". Apparently they simply wait for random adventurerers to come around to kill them and they are ALWAYS there.[/sarcasm off]
- The table is apparently clean and has nothing on it. Kitchen tables are always like that and especially in the hands of Kobolds who have a culture known for its cleanliness, right? [/sarcasm off]
- The boxes are described only as "difficult terrain" instead of what they contain, even 1st edition modules would have had some descriptions of the contents of the items here.
The "trapped passage":
- The whole thing about the iron defenders not being able to use a language (constructs usually dont talk, right?) and the goblin "making them utter remarks" is beyond me. Totally illogical and contradictory.
- How does this place "work" when the Goblin isnt there?
The "Honor Guard":
- This has the feeling of a "Tomb of Horrors"-room for lowbies. Properly played this is probably deadly.
- Mindless undead using tactics other than "me bash u"? Flanking? Come on thats really realistic. [/sarcasm off]
- I dont see any description of the room without the trap, so it seems like it is expected to be activated right away.
So the "story" goes on and on ... statistics and tactical descriptions, but no real description of the LIFE the creatures lead. This total focus on one important - but not overwhelmingly so - aspect of the game will serve only one purpose: Keeping the kiddies in "Phase 2".
When I started playing WoW (Horde side) I was the only one who never ventured into the Undead city because I felt that undead were unnatural and should be released from their torment. All others regarded them as just another race to be played. It is this distinction which shows if you are roleplaying or roll-playing, but nevertheless every player should make the decision himself which way he wants to play ... AND NOT THE COMPANY. So it is the job of the company to help the players seeing all the possibilities of the game and not limiting (focusing) them on one aspect. Of course I am someone who thinks altruism is a necessary human characteristic and that quality beats quantity every time.
In my opinion it is the responsibility of "us elders" to guide the youngsters through the phases, so they actually get to know the third one (but not the fourth) since WotC tries to deny them that particular fun aspect of the game. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 16 Sep 2008 11:33:14 |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 14:41:26
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quote:
When I started playing WoW (Horde side) I was the only one who never ventured into the Undead city because I felt that undead were unnatural and should be released from their torment. All others regarded them as just another race to be played.
Don't worry, I was like that as well, when I was playing WoW. But then I was playing on an RP server and such things were quite common amongst the general population (although not as common as they should have been). But leaving that aside, I do agree with the rest of your post - how do we get people from phase 2 to phase 3? To make this relevant to the topic of this scroll, how do we think modules such as Spellgard could point people in the direction we want? |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 15:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
But leaving that aside, I do agree with the rest of your post - how do we get people from phase 2 to phase 3? To make this relevant to the topic of this scroll, how do we think modules such as Spellgard could point people in the direction we want?
Well the point of a "dungeon crawl module" isnt really to give many opportunities for actual roleplaying, but rather a focus on the roll-playing and tactical aspect of the game. The only place for roleplaying is at the beginning to uncover hints about the targeted area, but since WotC is generously leaving adventuring ideas around in their campaign descriptions the players probably have a good idea as to where they want to go in a certain area of Faerun for example.
The introduction mentions that a dash
of social skills won’t hurt their chances either. Not everyone
in Spellgard is hostile, and some of its denizens can
provide useful aid. We cant judge on how well it accomplishes actual roleplaying, since we only have combat encounters in the excerpts and there are no hints as to what would happen if someone tried to negotiate with the goblins for example. So I guess the negotiating encounters are with some other creatures.
The really bad design of the encounters did surprise me a lot though and they have all the flavor of a room that has been designed by random rolls on "monster + room size + traps" tables.
The whole point about the focus on tactical encounters and ignoring the roleplaying comes partly from the basic 4e rules but also includes the module design ... (no diplomacy skill, repetition of stat blocks for every monster instead of true content and so on). |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2008 : 16:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Every D&D player *should have* the chance to go through several phases in his gaming life:
But not everyone does. Rules-lawyering and rules-manipulation are orthogonal to the basic RPG experience, and don't appeal to everyone -- especially if they're not presented with the false idea that 'true roleplaying' is something advanced and virtuous and difficult.quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Well the point of a "dungeon crawl module" isnt really to give many opportunities for actual roleplaying, but rather a focus on the roll-playing and tactical aspect of the game. The only place for roleplaying is at the beginning to uncover hints about the targeted area . . .
Roleplaying isn't just talking to NPCs, and you don't stop playing your character when she explores and fights. Look at the 'dungeon crawl' segments of Elminster: The Making of a Mage, The Temptation of Elminster, Swords of Eveningstar, or "Oroon Rising". How well the 4E rules or Scepter Tower of Spellgard facilitate other-than-tactical play, I don't know. |
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Module Excerpts: Scepter Tower of Spellgard
