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Lord Lysander
Acolyte
Greece
25 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:33:07
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After searching the past topics for about an hour or so, I haven't found anything answering this excact question... So I am sorry I have to ask this, because I am sure that it has been asked again and again in the past...
My party tends to gather the minor magic items (which are suitable for their level) and them sell them to gather gold in order to take an overpowered one with these money.
For example, a sixth level fighter would end up having a +2 sword (8000 gp)because the wizard borrowed him 2000 gold pieces. Thus even if the expected wealth for a character of this level would be 6000 gp he is going to have an uber weapon for his level...
How would you handle this (kind of cheating the DM) power gaming?
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-Beware...
-Why?
-The storm gets closer...
-So?
-So beware... |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:49:12
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| IMO, it balances out. The fighter owes 2000 to the wizard, which means he'll be down that much more when trying to get something else. Meanwhile, the Wizard is missing out on some stuff right now that could help. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Lord Lysander
Acolyte
Greece
25 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:58:31
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Nah...
The fighter with the +2 weapon quickly overpowers all enemies and this makes the game much easier... |
-Beware...
-Why?
-The storm gets closer...
-So?
-So beware... |
Edited by - Lord Lysander on 03 Sep 2008 17:58:55 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 18:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
My party tends to gather the minor magic items (which are suitable for their level) and them sell them to gather gold in order to take an overpowered one with these money.
This is called 'farming' by some. If you're the DM you can do a number of things. Firstly, reduce the number of minor magic items. Secondly, since your adventurers typically wander from place to place get them to pay gate tariffs and punitive taxes. The reason for the taxes would be to pay a militia to protect the town or large village from monsters and other such creatures, which incidentally is probably why your party are there in the first place. Thirdly, your party can only sell their items if someone is willing to pay for them. If they are selling a lot of items then the laws of supply and demand say that the cost of these items will fall. For example, scrolls of Cure Light Wounds were 50 gp are now worth 10 gp because there are a lot of them about.
The other thing is that many people can actually smell money. If an inn-keeper sees a group of adventurers one of who has a fancy sword, he'll offer them his best rooms because he reckons they can pay for it. He'll probably mark up the price too. Similarly, if there has been monster activity in the area he can justify the increase by the lack of business and the fact that the king has just raised taxes to pay for a bunch of adventurers or to pay for soldiers to patrol the roads.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
For example, a sixth level fighter would end up having a +2 sword (8000 gp)because the wizard borrowed him 2000 gold pieces. Thus even if the expected wealth for a character of this level would be 6000 gp he is going to have an uber weapon for his level...
How would you handle this (kind of cheating the DM) power gaming?
One way to deal with this is make the +2 sword special. Or give it a curse. You could invent a story that says the sword once belonged to a blackguard, who is now an undead creature. Recently, some foolish adventurers unwittingly completed the ritual to return him from the grave by washing his sword with blood. The more times the fighter uses the sword the stronger the Blackguard gets. That's one way.
By the way, the wizard lent the fighter the money. Does this mean the wizard is expecting to be paid back? If your fighter is 6th level and has a powerful sword maybe the king or local monarch wants him to hold a keep on the border. (Especially if he has a wizard for a friend.) If your wizard trained at a certain school or associated with an order, maybe that organisation want him to give them some money. A good real world example is the number of letters I get from my former college asking me to consider making them a gift.
There's lots you an do here. You're the DM. If you want some more ideas, just let me know. I like answering questions like this.  |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 18:12:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Nah...
The fighter with the +2 weapon quickly overpowers all enemies and this makes the game much easier...
This is why I don't allow the purchasing of magic items like commodities. Black market deals, secret transactions, and discreet barterings? No problem. Magic items are often traded for services the party needs, not acquired because Joe Mage happens to have one too many +2 swords in stock and needs to make room. The crafting of magic items, while it is a good outlet for any excess cash the party may have on hand, is an easy way to quickly lose control of the amount of magic in your world. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Lord Lysander
Acolyte
Greece
25 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 18:17:15
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Great answer the one with the blackguard...
But as far as not giving them minor magic items, I am "forced" to give then some kind of treasure. Either this is gems, gold, art or anything they are just going to sell it and get the money.
Also , if I tell them that no one wants to buy their items won't they just "rebel"?
I really do not want to "steal" money from the players by tolls or anything like this... |
-Beware...
-Why?
-The storm gets closer...
-So?
-So beware... |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 19:03:39
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Dude, if your sitting down with a party of morrons that wil "rebel". Rebel against what? You, then tweak them! The town their in, well im sure, the fighter only being 6th lvl could be overtaken by somone in the towns protection or somthing like that. Also it is not nice to be wanted for creating chaos or other naty things. ANd you dont have to give yor players anything. Remember that up to you to dicide. If you have allowed a lot of magic gear from day one, you will have a hard time removing these agin. But youi will no doubt end up with a game that is totaly owerpovered, where they take on, and beat 2-3 CR above their lvl!
I know what I'm talking about! been there, done that, got the tabbert!
Mod edit: Watch the language, please.  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Sep 2008 04:01:07 |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 19:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Great answer the one with the blackguard...
But as far as not giving them minor magic items, I am "forced" to give then some kind of treasure. Either this is gems, gold, art or anything they are just going to sell it and get the money.
That's true, but as DM, you have the final sy over whats available for them to purchase with that money. Unless you want them to have a +2 sword, then they simply can't find one, no matter how much money that have.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Also , if I tell them that no one wants to buy their items won't they just "rebel"?
I'm not sure what you mean by "rebel"? If you mean that they get mad and leave the game, then you're better off without them as players. Just because an item is in the rule books and has a price attached to it's descrition, does not mean it's available everywhere, on-demand in your game world. It sounds to me like you simply have to set limits for your players. Try it-you'll find most reasonable players won't object at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
I really do not want to "steal" money from the players by tolls or anything like this...
Then don't steal from them. Again, as the DM, you can choose to do whatever you think makes a good (by that I mean both believable and enjoyable) adventure for them to share in. Role-playing is a shared activity. That means your players don't always get what they may want. It's as simple as that.
[/quote] |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1871 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 19:14:44
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Oh, this may be a stupid question, but what is the benefit of having a +2 sword instead of several lesser items?
Surely, that +2 on one character's attacks and damages is not more useful than several +1 boni on the actions of other characters?
I'd think that there is no balance problem here and it certainly isn't cheating. The players are choosing to give up one benefit for another. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Lord Lysander
Acolyte
Greece
25 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 21:15:48
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quote:
Originaly posted by Halidan:
I'm not sure what you mean by "rebel"? If you mean that they get mad and leave the game, then you're better off without them as players. Just because an item is in the rule books and has a price attached to it's descrition, does not mean it's available everywhere, on-demand in your game world. It sounds to me like you simply have to set limits for your players. Try it-you'll find most reasonable players won't object at all.
No, not at all this kind of rebelion... We are very good friends and no matter what you understood ,because of my not so good knoledge of english, I have absolute controll on the party. I am just trying to make playing as enjoying as I can...
I think the best is what Halidan proposed. The players won't find anyone to give them those magic items.
quote:
Originaly posted by Nikolai Withander:
Dude, if your sitting down with a party of morrons that wil "rebel". Rebel against what? You, then tweak them! The town their in, well im sure, the fighter only being 6th lvl could be overtaken by somone in the towns protection or somthing like that. Also it is not nice to be wanted for creating chaos or other naty things. ANd you dont have to give yor players anything. Remember that up to you to dicide. If you have allowed a lot of magic gear from day one, you will have a hard time removing these agin. But youi will no doubt end up with a game that is totaly owerpovered, where they take on, and beat 2-3 CR above their lvl!
I know what I'm talking about! been there, done that, got the tabbert!
For god's shake Nikolai. players are not some kind of enemies.
But I agree with you as far as this CR thing is concerned... I have encountered this thing and thus I lowered the PC abilities in the campaign I am going to start...
Mod edit: Removed profanity from a quote. |
-Beware...
-Why?
-The storm gets closer...
-So?
-So beware... |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Sep 2008 04:01:53 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 04:44:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
After searching the past topics for about an hour or so, I haven't found anything answering this excact question... So I am sorry I have to ask this, because I am sure that it has been asked again and again in the past...
My party tends to gather the minor magic items (which are suitable for their level) and them sell them to gather gold in order to take an overpowered one with these money.
For example, a sixth level fighter would end up having a +2 sword (8000 gp)because the wizard borrowed him 2000 gold pieces. Thus even if the expected wealth for a character of this level would be 6000 gp he is going to have an uber weapon for his level...
How would you handle this (kind of cheating the DM) power gaming?
First, in D&D 3.x items wich value is over 3000 are in DM's hands (it's written in PHB equipement chapter IIRC).
Second, to be optimized in combat, all character classes need magic items in 3.X, and the best magic items are the stat-boosters. If the Wizard isn't trying to get a Headband of Intellect, you certainly have nothing to worry !
That being said, I think that generaly (at lest between adventures) you should let players get whatever magic items they want that fit the wealth guidelines (nothing worth more than 50% of the total wealth).
Of course, you have to know that many magic items in 3.X are overpriced, and that a few ones are underpriced.
For example, you don't want to include a Kwalish's apparatus in the expected wealth of a character.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 04 Sep 2008 04:45:34 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 06:05:10
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A +2 weapon is not game-breaking, especially in 3.5...
Now, if your +2 weapon also has the metalline, holy, and sure-striking abilities, this would be a different matter altogether...  |
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Lord Lysander
Acolyte
Greece
25 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 12:03:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight:
A +2 weapon is not game-breaking, especially in 3.5...
Now, if your +2 weapon also has the metalline, holy, and sure-striking abilities, this would be a different matter altogether...
This is greatly depended by the partys abilities scores. In the party I DM now, the fighter has STR 16, CON 14, With these stats a +1 flaming sword is a great advantage, at least at low levels... |
-Beware...
-Why?
-The storm gets closer...
-So?
-So beware... |
Edited by - Lord Lysander on 04 Sep 2008 12:04:27 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 12:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Great answer the one with the blackguard...
Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
But as far as not giving them minor magic items, I am "forced" to give then some kind of treasure. Either this is gems, gold, art or anything they are just going to sell it and get the money.
You're not truly forced. Why not shift your adventure to an unexplored region, where several caravan trails have been attacked. Describe the villages as looking well cared for but needing more maintenance. The people wear clothes that look well worn. The tavern has some panes of glass missing in the windows, and the barman, who is wearing a shirt that was fashionable twenty years ago, tells your adventurers that rumour has it that the villages further along the trail are self-sufficient and rarely have need to use money. Your barman, could say something like "Ah, I've not seen a gold coin for two weeks. I can tell you're not from Winterbrook, the folks there still barter. Still, mustn't grumble, it keeps me in ham and cheese."
If your players complain tell them that you want to add variety to their adventures. If they always get treasure then in time they'll find that boring. Now that you your players are at 6th level they've got money enough and they're powerful. It's only right that you make life a bit more unpredictable for them because that means more fun.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Also , if I tell them that no one wants to buy their items won't they just "rebel"?
It's a question of business. Do the traders want the goods? If I run a magic shop and someone wants to sell me a Wand of Magic Missiles (WoMM), then my first question is "What is my stock of WoMM's?" If I have 20 WoMM's then I probably won't buy the wand being offered. After all, unsold stock costs me money. It's also a question of how much ready gold NPC's have. The DM's Guide (3rd and V3.5) covers this in the World Building Section.
If your players are in a city then they'll probably find a buyer, but again it's just a question of what the market looks like. There are only so many people who want magic items. Most folk want to feed their families and themselves, they want a roof over their heads and enough money to enjoy feast-days and other special events. Folks who live in cities expect the militia to protect them. After all, that is what they pay their taxes for.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
I really do not want to "steal" money from the players by tolls or anything like this...
It's not stealing. Any organised state, no matter how small, expects their citizens to pay taxes and tolls. Bridges do not repair themselves and neither do city walls. Now if you actually have a self-repairing bridge then maybe the city had to pay a Mage Guild a huge sum to have it built.
So the question is, are your adventurers citizens of the land they're adventuring in? If they are, then they should pay taxes. If they are not citizens then they have to pay tolls and probably have to pay more. They may even need to pay bribes to convince the local law enforcement that they are not spies.
One way rich people stay rich is by making sure that others stay poor. European history is full of rich kings and starving peasants.
My main point is that if your players continually expect rewards then the game will become predictable. If they attack a poverty-stricken goblin encampment then they shouldn't expect to find crowns and magic items.
If they find a +2 sword after a battle then I would hope that they took it out of the cold dead hands of the defeated foe.
Perhaps the main thing to do is just sit down with your players and discuss your feelings. If you feel that they are only in the game for shopping and items and you want to make the game more realistic then say so. The longer something goes unsaid the more likely there is to be a loud argument in my experience. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 04 Sep 2008 12:33:08 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:18:05
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Letting players buy items is very risky indeed if you follow the guidelines in 3.5 and the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks. Having a "blank checque" statement for each town of which kinds of item values is available will eventually cause your players to become too well equipped. They simply have to save lots of cash and then go to the biggest town - because it has the highest quality items available - and buy few but very powerful stuff. The same is true if you allow items to be created without having the players to "work for them" (i.e. gathering rare components themselves, performing rituals in dangerous places, solving quests for others to get them to do something for the item, ...).
You say that the players are gathering minor magic items, which I assume includes potions and scrolls? These should be used ruthlessly by your NPCs or else they are simply free money for the PCs.
Selling magic items should not give you a high amount of cash, so it might be desirable to keep even small magics and use them rather than selling them.
Our DM had the tendency to let us be captured every once in a while and was able to remove unwanted magic items easily that way. IMO this is a tactic which is used not often enough, becuase it brings you back to basics and reminds you not to rely too much on your items. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
A +2 weapon is not game-breaking, especially in 3.5...
At very low levels it is ... |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:28:54
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I don't mind letting players buy Magic Items, as along as I can have fun in *who* they buy them from. And in most places in Faerun, they know that means a certain bunch of wizards dressed in a natty shade of red. ;-)
Perhaps the OP could have fun with a (for the PCs) group of Thayan "baliffs" who insist that, due to the particular provinence of the items they have found, the Red Wizards are owed certain large fees, and that the players, as current owners of the items, owe this money? |
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Lord Lysander
Acolyte
Greece
25 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:41:47
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Red Wizards do not sell Magic Items like swords...
I think that they sell only cheap potions and low level scrolls...
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-Beware...
-Why?
-The storm gets closer...
-So?
-So beware... |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 13:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Red Wizards do not sell Magic Items like swords...
I think that they sell only cheap potions and low level scrolls...
I actually picture them selling this stuff and if you ask, maybe 'tip' them some, they'll show you more stuff 'in the back'.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 14:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Red Wizards do not sell Magic Items like swords...
I think that they sell only cheap potions and low level scrolls...
Oh that's what they tell you. *winkwinknudgenudge*. |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 19:04:50
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Remember, you're certainly within you rights to raise the cost of an item 20, 30, or even 50% depending on several economic factors. Anyway, I'd think they'd be better off with a couple of +1 weapons, so other party members can overcome DR.
Also, I know that when I'm playing a mage, at low levels, my part of the loot is usually spent in buying scrolls to copy into my spellbook as well as a wand or two. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 21:41:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
Red Wizards do not sell Magic Items like swords...
I think that they sell only cheap potions and low level scrolls...
Werent they trying to get the customers addicted to some herbs too or was that just a single exception? |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Brunswick
Acolyte
Ireland
21 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:15:13
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| I sometimes have this issue with my players, pooling items they dont want and they then head to a wizards college/warriors academy/temple etc., to find buyers for wands, maces, swords etc., They get a fraction of the original price of these items if they do sell them, or try to trade them. I may make a trade via an NPC for an item or items the characters have for something they want but I'm pretty stingy about what I let the group have in the trade, and they're cool enough with that. I dont allow the characters BUY magical items as such at all though and the characters would never gain an item too much beyond their level in a trade. I dont think this behaviour is cheating, just the players using their heads in my opinion. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Lysander
How would you handle this (kind of cheating the DM) power gaming?
1. Ask the players to stop.
2. Use the Realms' norms of buying and selling magic items (difficult and rare) instead of those imposed by the 3E ruleset. |
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Kairin
Acolyte
40 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 13:20:21
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| I'm not sure if this is the best advice since it encourages DM/player competition... But if one of my players had an overpowered sword they would suddenly met flying enemies. And face ranged attacks. Monsters with damage reduction. Players often have adamantine weapons so I like the enemies you need silver or cold iron against. A flaming sword is a mixed blessing because fire immunity is quite common. My group like weird challenges so even if they scream "metagaming!" at me we still have fun with it. |
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How should I handle this kind of "cheating" ?
